Not on any memorial... any ideas?

[Denise Ford]

I see what you mean Andy: but no other members of my family were lost in the war - if this Samuel James is ours, then he has to be Uncle Jim... James doesn't seem to exist as a birth yet the census proves a James was in my family born in the very same year as this person (yet to be proven, but the certificates are now on order!)... I can see that I don't have 100% proof but it's pretty much 99% in my eyes... that is enough for me... anyway lets see what tomorrow at Kew brings... and the certificates in a week... am still dancing a little jig of excitement anyway!

[Max]

I can see that I don't have 100% proof but it's pretty much 99% in my eyes...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As long as you are happy, thats OK.

[Denise Ford]

as long as another Woodall family doesn't appear on here and claim him as their own, i'm ok!

Did anyone find the SDGW details? Hoping that might give next of kin.

In anticipation (I know I know I need to prove it first!!) I've downloaded this Samuel's medal index card.

It states that he has two different regiment numbers: the one listed above and another, same Corps but was a Private in Regiment No 3989.

Should I bear this in mind when looking for his records? Why would he have changed Regiment prior to joining the one he latterly died for?

How do I interpret the medal index tomorrow? Sorry lots of questions now.

It has entries under the Victory medal and the British Medal with a roll number and page number: is this a book? It also has something in the remarks coloum - lots of letters and digits.

Edited to say: having now visited the enterpreting the Medal Cards forum, it is clear that the medals were returned... it then says (1743-KR) 7956/something - what does this reference mean and why would his medals have been returned? Can they be reissued now??

[Max]

Hello Denise

Can you attach an image of the MIC so we can all have a look.

It would not now be possible to claim his medals, even if you were the direct next of kin.

Andy

[Max]

Denise

It looks as though his medals were returned. This could be for a variety of reasons the main one being that the specified next of kin had moved address.

Kings Regulations 1912 paragraph 1743 states "Disposal of unclaimed medals - Medals which, at the end of 10 years, still remain unclaimed, will be sent to the India Office (if granted for Indian Service), or to the deputy director of ordnance stores, Royal Dockyard (Medal Branch), Woolwich (if granted for other service) to be broken up."

Andy

[Stebie9173]

Denise,

Stop it! I've got work to do...

He may have changed regiments from a non-Active battalion in the UK in order to go overseas.

The Medal Rolls are indeed big books. You need to order it on one of the computers there. There are some leaflets just inside the fiche room to explain it. Basically, you look up the code (letters at the front of the reference) in a white folder on the table near the index cards then find the reference given there in the bigger blue folder. Write down the WO reference and order that on the computer. Wait for 30 minutes (there is a card terminal on the wall nearby to check on progress) and then head to the reading room opposite the fiche room. The boxes should be in the locker for the table you chose on the computer. Take one box at a time to the tables and goto the page number on the MIC.

Voila. It should tell you what regiments and what battalions he was in and the qualifying dates. There wont be a lot more.

The service records are not filed by regiments at all. Both of my relatives I referred to did service before the war and were in the main rolls. Don't forget to check Mis-sorts and WO 364 which are by individual soldiers. WO 363 index covers groups of soldiers.

Steve.

[Denise Ford]

Not sure if this is readable, the downloaded copy is terrible. Shame they can't reissue the medals... fancy his family still not being able to see the reward of his efforts.

[Denise Ford]

PS I haven't done any work all day, Steve.. don't see why you should

[Max]

Thanks for the MIC image, you are quite right when you say that the medals were returned and they were disposed of under Kings Regulations paragraph 1743.

As to the family not being able to see the reward for his efforts, it may well be the family that returned the medals (but I am not even going to go there)

Andy

[Stebie9173]

Well, the lack of the 1914 or 1914-15 Star means this chap went to France after 1.1.1916.

In the white book you need to reference TP31, in the blue 101b, and find page 59 in the medal roll book itself.

As far as service records go, the ones I looked at had details of parents and/or marriage details. I would have though our James would have given his parents as NOK if not officially married, although I believe they got extra pay for declaring dependants which my great-uncle did.

He was the same age as James would have been... (b 1885)

Steve

[Terry Denham]

Denise

If you have ordered an Overseas Death Certificate, it will not show any n-o-k details at all - nor any addresses.

It will contain the man's military details - regt, number, place of death (eg France) and a cause of death (usually KiA or DoW).

[Denise Ford]

Thanks guys, that's brilliant! Far more helpful coming here than asking at Kew itself: I was a lost soul last weekend - I feel far more opimistic of finding answers there now, even if they aren't the ones I'm looking for. Now I know Samuel James was in France sometime between Jan 1916 and his death on the last day of the Battle of the Somme (what horrors can he have seen, only to die on the last day?) - are there war diaries that show the movements of his regiment? Steve, looking at your High Wood link, it shows that the regiment was a Territorial Army regiment.

[Stebie9173]

It wasn't the last day of the Somme, Denise. The battle dragged on until the end of 1916. Just the end for this soldier.

The Battalion was part of 142nd Brigade, 47th (London) division during the period "Samuel" was there. Links to the Regiment and Division parts of the Long, Long Trail:

http://www.1914-1918.net/london.htm

http://www.1914-1918.net/47div.htm

The High Wood attack was part of the Battle of Fler-Courcellete but the links are under construction. A Google search should raised some more info. Also, with "High Wood", too.

There is also a book called "The Hell that was High Wood" which I very nearly bought yesterday. And then didn't...

The battalion would have stayed with it's brigade and division but probably have moved between Corps and Army as most Divisions did.

Use the Divisional page to track the Battalions movements bearing in mind that the Battalion would not have necessarily been in the fore-front of all of the engagements.

Kew holds war diaries under WO95 for Battalions, Brigades and Divisions which can be ordered on the computers. They are hand-written reports from the Officers at the front at the time, but only very,very rarely mention "Other Ranks" unless for their deaths.

On 15th the OR deaths would just be a statistic.

Oh, I forgot. Saturday ordering time is 40-45 minutes, not 30.

Steve.

[Max]

I have just checked the 1881 census for John Woodall shown as being 50 years old on the 1901 census. Interestingly, whilst all the children seem correct his wife is shown as Kelly. It looks as though the Mary shown on the 1901 census as being Johns spouse is his 2nd wife.

The other John Woodall residing in St Georges in the 1901 and aged 30 would appear to be John and Kellys son.

Andy

[Denise Ford]

Andy, sorry should've updated on forum: discussed this with Steve offline: Mary Ann's name, in the family, was Polly. We believe that Kelly is a mistranscription of this: John was from Worcester and so may have had an accent not recognised by a Surrey man. The children are all belonging to John & Polly. I did double check and try to find a marriage between a Kelly and a John but none exists: this does seem to therefore seem that our assumption is correct. Both my Uncle Billy and my grandmother remember John and Polly's life and deaths and confirm no other wives present!

[Max]

Hello Denise

I must be sounding like the harbinger of doom evertime that I post, I don't mean to, but I am naturally very cautious.

You say that John Woodall (shown as 50 on the 1901 census) was born in Worcester, however the John Woodall on the 1901 and 1881 census living in Southwark is shown on both as being born in Southwark not Worcester. Have you and Steve been able to reconcile this?

Andy

[Denise Ford]

Stop giving me heart attacks, Andy!

John died still married to Mary Ann (Polly) in 1904, at the same address as Polly. To our knowledge they never parted, even temporarily: we assume like many census entries, John just didn't bother saying he lived anywhere different to the rest of the family. All other details confirm he was born Upton, Worcs.

Edit:

Before anyone goes on freebmd and checks that, I'm going to rephrase what I've said cos I worded it terribly... John's mother Sarah was apparently from Worcs... but it seems his birth was registered in Southwark... we have both Worcs and Southwark stated by John as his place of birth... so we assume that he was born Worcs but registered later back "home". This would therefore seem to confirm he was born in both places!

[Denise Ford]

SUCCESS!!!!!!

Thank you everyone who helped me!!

Samuel James Woodall joined the 21st Battalian London Regiment on the 27th May 1915, aged 30, at Camberwell. He was residing 3 Cardol Place Long Lane SE, SE1.

His next of kin was named as Edith B Woodall, his wife.

During 1915 and the start of 1916, Samuel James appeared to be a rather naughty young soldier and spent long periods in detention rather than serving his country, although he also spent some time hospitalised. However, on 6th April 1916, he was sent to France. By September, he was fighting at the Somme. On 15th September, his regiment found themselves at High Wood, particularly at the Battle of Flers-Courcelette, which took place on 15th September 1916. Rifleman Samuel James Woodall was not listed as missing in action until 30th September 1916 and later was declared Presumed as Dead, having gone missing on 15th September.

His family were informed and the British and Victory Medals issued to Samuel James. His wife, Edith declared his family on a Statement to the regiment. They were:

Edith B Woodall, of 115 Littel Hunter Street, Weston Street, and their children Margrat Woodall, b 19th Jan 1908, Edith Woodall, b 3 Aug 1909, James S Woodall, b 14 Oct 1911 and Mary Woodall, b 21 Jan 1913. His mother was Mary Woodall, of 77 Darwin Street, Old Kent Road, his brother John Woodall of 49 Morecambe St, Walworth, age 56 and his sister Sarah Woodall age 43, of 58 Darwin Street, Old Kent Road. His grandparents are listed as dead and Edith signs herself widow, on 15th July 1917.

From that date on, Edith Woodall writes a series of letters to the London Infantry Record office, over a period of a further 4 years, requesting the release of Samuel James' medals to her, until November 1921, when the Colonel of that office writes to her to inform her that they had discovered that she was not legally married to Samuel James, and her name was Edith Brady. As she was not married to him and he left no will, she was not entitled to claim any part of his estate, and that included his medals. The medals were returned and a file note added to Samuel James' records that the medals should be retained pending application which should be forwarded to the War Office for instructions (legal next of kin not traced). (this is despite the family being declared by Edith in 1917). The file appears to have been closed after this date and no further correspondence takes place.

What a shame no legal next of kin was traced: he had 4 children and his mother was listed as living at 77 Darwin Street: my great grandmother (her daughter) remained at this house until her death in 1984... legal next of kin were, therefore, traceable for a further 70 odd years. We have examined the original photograph of him (shown here in earlier posts - it is not a copy but the original) and the inking out of his buttons and disguise of his cap badge are, without doubt, not on the photograph but must've been done by the photographer. Why, we do not know. It was taken in 1915 - presumably when he joined to serve his country "for the duration of the war".

My great Uncle Jim is a mystery no more: born with the name Samuel James and serving for his country he lies presumably with thousands of other Unknown Soldiers in the battlefields of the Somme, dying in one of the most horrific battles imaginable, and commemorated on the memorial at Theipval with his comrades.

In my eyes, like his many thousands of fellow soldiers, Uncle Jim is a hero, and I'm humbled to have found the story of his life... and death, all for the love of his country.

[Stebie9173]

Woo-hoo!

Well done, Denise. I'll raise a glass to James.

Don't forget to thank Myrtle for the brilliant find on SDGW.

Any idea where a UK memorial would be? If it's in Southwark I might just pay a visit when I come to that part of London for a drink (or two)on the 29th. I feel I know the chap!

Can I do some work next week, now?

I am right chuffed now...

Steve.

[Denise Ford]

Of course, without Myrtle that suspicion I had months ago would've been forgotten... that vital link ensured we could honour Uncle Jim.

I have no idea where his UK memorial would be: I was looking for the wrong name before: I will have to start again on that. Please do have a drink for him when you visit: I think I will do the same - i'd even like to make up for the rememberence days we've missed and lay a wreath, I live only about an hour away from his home town.... it will be a pleasure to "find" him again.

Thank you also to you, Steve, for you convinced me I wasn't going mad and that whilst you proved James did exist you also encouraged me to look sideways and go with my hunches...

I might also do some work next week: before I get sacked for not doing a thing the past week... though I feel that his "lost" and unrecognised children need tracing now!!

I too am rather chuffed... can you tell?

[Stebie9173]

Just a bit,

A bet your whoop of joy rattled the windows at the NA!

If you want to trace relatives you might want to have a look at GenesReunited. I was looking for my long, lost Great-Uncle Walter that everyone had thought had died in the war and then found out that he survived the War and had 5 children! Not only that, we found out that he was the mysterious best man at my grandfathers wedding (he and my grandmother died in the 50s so we never knew). We managed to find him mentioned on GenesReunited and are off to see his 80 something children in the next couple of weeks!

Amazing stuff this History.

Going to find out more about Uncle Jim's army career (i.e. where he fought), now? Or was he just at the Somme?

So long and thanks for all the fish...

Steve.

[Denise Ford]

Nowt wrong with fish, Steve...

I'd like to find out more: that book on High Wood you were going to buy sounds like a good way to identify with the scenes.

It seems Uncle Jim was "Home" 27/5/1915 - 5/4/1916, then "France" 6/4/1916 - 15/9/1916, when he died.

He is described as a "loveable rogue" by the family - from his detention record it seems his roguish ways travelled with him, although this detention was served whilst he was "Home".

He has a rather long casualty record: One entry says "St Pol" whereever that is, another "Havre". The others state "Field". Is it possible to trace his route through France to his demise in the Somme?

Genesreunited has led me to my family on the other side.. this site hasn't proved fruitful yet - but today might yet yield results! This WWI stuff fascinates me... now I have to trace my maternal great grandfather's records... he joined up but was a concientious objector... fortunately for him he also had 6 toes on each foot and he was discharged, and latterly became a member of the ambulance service.. so I need both his army record and his ambulance service one... I think you've started me off on something now!!

[Stebie9173]

You should have checked the bookshop on the way out for the book. Or were you too excited?

The Book is "The Hell they called High Wood : The Somme 1916" by Terry Norman (ISBN:0850529867)

It might still be in print for order at a local bookshop or many people here seem to try Abebooks.co.uk

http://textbook.abebooks.co.uk/Title/46502...+HIGH+WOOD.html

(My great-uncle Herbert who died later at Arras was involved in one of the earlier attempts to take High Wood but which failed, hence the interest)

As for James' earlier exploits, the battalion seems to have been involved in a German attack at Vimy Ridge near Arras in May 1916.

http://www.1914-1918.net/bat14_4.htm

Do the dates 19th - 26th May 1916 coincide with any of James' hospital jaunts?

Steve.

PS One of my great-uncles on my grandmothers side of the family seems to have been fairly familiar with the "glasshouse". He was busted down from Lance-Corporal to Private once (in his pre-WW1 service).

[Denise Ford]

The bookshop had closed by the time I left! I was most disappointed...

Uncle Jim's record shows:

Embarked 6/4/1916,

disembarked 7/4/1916.

Joined Unit (Field) 28/5/1916 (it is then annotated B213)

Admitted Scabid?? (Field) 3/7/1916

To Duty 6/7/1916 (both these entries annotated a&a36)

Admitted Impetigo (?) something illegible 28/7/1916

To (illegible) 27/7/1916

Admitted St Pol 27/7/1916

Transferred to base St Pol 30/7/1916

Admitted Havre 31/7/1916

Joined Base something illegible 20/8/1916 (annotated a&b&

Illegible Field 28/8/1916

[Stebie9173]

That rules him out for Arras/Vimy then.

He would have been a replacement for the heavy casualties inflicted on the 47th Division at Vimy.

St Pol and Havre would be hospitals. Havre I assume is the port of Le Havre and St Pol is about 2/3rds of the way between Boulougne and Arras.

Impetigo is a blistery skin infection (my great-uncle had that too. Are you sure your not looking at Percy's records?) I assumed the admitted Scabid bit is due to this...

So it looks like High Wood was James' only major action of the war, though he was probably in the trenches at some point before that. You could always look at the battalion War Diary on your next trip to Kew.

Or there is this:

http://www.naval-military-press.co.uk/books/titles/6892.htm

Steve.