truthergw Posted 9 December , 2007 Share Posted 9 December , 2007 Most accounts of the March offensive mention the breakdown in discipline of German troops with episodes of drunkenness and looting. It is referred to in a couple of german accounts as well. I have seen it suggested, but on what evidence is unclear, that the looting was among 2nd line troops coming in as reserves to the storm troopers. These were considered to be much less disciplined. Storm of Steel mentions the bad effect that the British supply dumps had on the morale of the Germans. Education before Verdun is another which mentions the same realisation that the German front line troops were being very badly supplied and this was underlined by the treasure troves the British abandoned in retreat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBI Posted 9 December , 2007 Share Posted 9 December , 2007 Just a Polite Reminder ..KILL THOSE QUOTES...See Chris Bakers Post on the Over Use of quotes and their Effects on the Running of the Forum....Regards Russ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beau Geste Posted 9 December , 2007 Author Share Posted 9 December , 2007 an Aladdins Cave of Solid Gold and Silver Table Ware,at which point the Hovering German went Ballistic,so to calm Him Down 1 of the Trio shot Him Lovely story , He shot him in self defence I hope !!!! Harry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beau Geste Posted 9 December , 2007 Author Share Posted 9 December , 2007 The extent to which this factor truly affected the progress of the German advance is no doubt arguable, but numerous accounts mention it. Mick Thanks Mick, I did know about the Germans' problems regarding food and other supplies towards the end of WW1. I also knew about them taking a number of very large supply dumps during their advance. It was the point you made about the way it affected their rate of advance that I hadn't come across before. An interesting point. Thank you for posting it. Harry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beau Geste Posted 9 December , 2007 Author Share Posted 9 December , 2007 Storm of Steel and Education before Verdun Thank you truthergw. Harry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 9 December , 2007 Share Posted 9 December , 2007 Here is a photo of German troops in 1918 merrily looting a French wine train (essential military supplies). No officer is evident One wonders what effect on their ability to advance a few tons of French wine would have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nor.d Posted 9 December , 2007 Share Posted 9 December , 2007 quote 'Beau Geste' post '817095' date Dec 9 2007 05:40 PM Lovely story , He shot him in self defence I hope !!!! Harry unquote Haaaaaaaaaaaa "It's the way yi tellem" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beau Geste Posted 9 December , 2007 Author Share Posted 9 December , 2007 Haaaaaaaaaaaa "It's the way yi tellem" Yes, I was joking Harry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nor.d Posted 9 December , 2007 Share Posted 9 December , 2007 quote 'centurion' date'Dec 9 2007, 06:26 PM' post'817112' Here is a photo of German troops in 1918 merrily looting a French wine train (essential military supplies). No officer is evident One wonders what effect on their ability to advance a few tons of French wine would have. unquote Makes you think don't it Officers would probably turn a blind eye to looting the dead but looting the vin blanc or vin rouge "whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat" "Good gawd man, shoot the blighters on sight" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beau Geste Posted 9 December , 2007 Author Share Posted 9 December , 2007 Fab photo Centurion Now who could possibly blame them ????? Harry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBI Posted 9 December , 2007 Share Posted 9 December , 2007 British Tommy Prior to Robbing a German POW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nor.d Posted 9 December , 2007 Share Posted 9 December , 2007 How do you know he was going to rob him? Was he a relation of yours? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBI Posted 9 December , 2007 Share Posted 9 December , 2007 Yes He was,and i have the Pickelhaube on my Mantlepiece along with the Rest of His Personal Possessions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nor.d Posted 9 December , 2007 Share Posted 9 December , 2007 What germaine helmut above your Herdfeuer unde ist pluendert Gute gawd man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBI Posted 9 December , 2007 Share Posted 9 December , 2007 Fancy.... Somebodies living next door to this Pilfering off the dead don't bother him at all .......... He needs reporting ............. I think Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgement,thou shalt not respect the person of the poor,nor honour the person of the mighty:but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy Neighbour.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 9 December , 2007 Share Posted 9 December , 2007 but looting the vin blanc or vin rouge "whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat" The Aussies had beer dumps (I've seen photos). Makes one wonder what the German response to all that amber nectar would have been. XXXX XXXX XXXX etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nor.d Posted 9 December , 2007 Share Posted 9 December , 2007 Yes nowt wrong with that kind of looting Instead of robbin some poor bugga Makes yi think what type of sneaky bloke would rob the dead None of my lot ever stooped so low Even before the war when they had nowt on their feet, nowt on their backs an nowt in their bellies they never stole from those less fortunate than themselves dead or alive eeeeeeeh how can people stoop so looow Pass round the vin blanc me bonny lad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete1052 Posted 10 December , 2007 Share Posted 10 December , 2007 The battle of Cedar Creek in the Shenandoah Valley in October 1864 (not far from where I live) is said to have been lost due to Confederate looting after an initial victory. Early in the morning the Southerners under Jubal Early made a surprise attack on the encampment of the army of Phil Sheridan and they routed the Union forces. The Confederates were busy looting the U.S. camp for goodies as the U.S. Cavalry under Gen. George Custer and Colonel Charles Lowell formed a line. Their troopers were armed with the Spencer carbine, a seven-shot repeater, the assault weapon of the day. About that time Gen. Sheridan returned--he'd been away at a conference--and rallied the Union infantry. The counterattack Sheridan put together swept the Confederates from the field. Had the Confederates consolidated their gains instead of losing their unit cohesion and looting the camp it would probably never have happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desdichado Posted 10 December , 2007 Share Posted 10 December , 2007 The Aussies had beer dumps (I've seen photos). Makes one wonder what the German response to all that amber nectar would have been. XXXX XXXX XXXX etc. centution, you seem to forget that the Germans know how to make beer. Had they chanced upon the Australian version, they would have washed their hair with it, unless it was Thomas Cooper's stout, but that was created by a Yorkshireman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desdichado Posted 10 December , 2007 Share Posted 10 December , 2007 Storm of Steel mentions the bad effect that the British supply dumps had on the morale of the Germans. I haven't read Storm of Steel but excerpts from it are used by Martin Middlebrook in his book The Kaiser's Battle which confirms, through other sources too, that some German units were greatly distracted by the booty that they happened across during their advance. Middlebrook also relates many tales of ex-British POWs who were captured in the battle. One officer was relieved of his British "warm", field glasses and other items. Personal items like photographs and postcards, and letters were also taken, I had assumed for intelligence purposes, but I may be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBI Posted 10 December , 2007 Share Posted 10 December , 2007 Nor.d...what has happend to Your recent Working Class Diatribe Post that i have just read ?... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beau Geste Posted 10 December , 2007 Author Share Posted 10 December , 2007 Morning corporal nor'd In posting #209, you have a peculiar opinion of officers. Many of those I served with would have joined in! Harry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beau Geste Posted 10 December , 2007 Author Share Posted 10 December , 2007 Hello Des, (posting #220) It was, as a number of people have said, a common practice on both sides. A thought has occurred to me though, right through the war efforts were made to find a tactic or a new weapon system that would give one side or the other "an edge". I'm surprised, considering some recent postings on this thread, that supply dumps weren't placed strategically around the battle field so that it would attract the attention of German units in the area and tempt them out of their trenches and deep dugouts . Can you imagine how much easier it would have been for units like the Tyneside battalions, the 2nd Middlesex and 2nd Lincolns attacking La Boiselle and Ovillers if there had been a supply dump somewhere in Mash Valley to divert the defenders' attention! It would have been like ants on an ant hill !!!!!!! Harry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlfaMale Posted 10 December , 2007 Share Posted 10 December , 2007 I think that what you say here is something I can relate to. Correct me please if I have misunderstood your point of view but you seem to be saying that some people are good and some evil. There are of course others who aren't blessed with the level of humaity shown by a Nelson Mandela or a Pope John Paul but who nevertheless resist any negative or evil temptations and live normal lives. (They form the vast majority of the population. - but this is my idea and wasn't part of what you said). There are also those, fewer in numbers hopefully, who cannot resist the evil vibes that they feel and these are the ones we sometimes talk about as we did in alfamale's recent posting. I'm not so sure that it is so clear-cut: there was a well-known psychology experiment performed in the 1970s(?) (so well-known that I can't remember the name of the experiment or experimentor at the moment ... ) to study how groups of prisoners and guards interacted: two groups of students from similar were involved, one as "prisoners", one as "guards" but crucially the "guards" had absolute power over the prisoners but there was no effective check on them. The experiment was actually stopped after a week or so (rather than the 8+ weeks intended) because the behaviour of many (but not all) of the guards towards the prisoners had descended to such a level that the prisoners were at real risk of psychological damage: that's how brutal it got in a semi-controlled environment with groups of educated volunteers who were not under considerable stress (the guards anyway ...) I think this is possibly quite important so I'm going to try and google and find the experiment again. Alfa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlfaMale Posted 10 December , 2007 Share Posted 10 December , 2007 It was the Stanford Prison Experiment, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment "Prisoners and guards rapidly adapted to their roles, stepping beyond the boundaries of what had been predicted and leading to dangerous and psychologically damaging situations. One-third of the guards were judged to have exhibited "genuine" sadistic tendencies, while many prisoners were emotionally traumatized and two had to be removed from the experiment early" (from above source) That's ONE IN THREE supposedly well-adjusted young men NOT under extreme stress showed genuinely sadistic tendencies, whilst very few people amongst the guards, prisoners and the experimentor himself, tried to positively influence what was happening. The experiment lasted 6 days instead of the planned 14 and some of the abuse was very like that in Abu Ghraib. Some of the conclusions drawn from the experiment have been doubted but it seems to me that if in a VERY short period of time, one in three "guards" descended into sadism that there are a lot of people who are capable of leading quite normal lives until introduced to a situation that allows their darker side to emerge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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