Souveniers taken from the dead in time of war

[pmaasz]

I haven't read through all 6 pages of entries but I can report this, recorded by a soldier who fought at Rifle Wood (Domart-sur-la-Luce) on 1st April 1918 and returned there in August when the regiment fought over the same ground: the remains of the dead from the earlier battle were still lying on the ground, but the Germans had taken their boots. It is well known that German boots were very inferior to the British ones.

[PhilB]

This, entitled "British dead, taken by a German photographer" seems to confirm that. They also look to be short of tunics?

[Beau Geste]

QUOTE (Phil_B @ Dec 6 2007, 02:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This, entitled "British dead, taken by a German photographer" seems to confirm that. They also look to be short of tunics?

A "great photo" Phil ( what an inappropriate phrase that is ! ). It reinforces the view of many (which I find no difficulty with) of the "understandable practice of removing useful commodities like greatcoats, boots, weapons etc from those who don't need them any longer.

Harry

I haven't read through all 6 pages of entries but I can report this, recorded by a soldier who fought at Rifle Wood (Domart-sur-la-Luce) on 1st April 1918 and returned there in August when the regiment fought over the same ground: the remains of the dead from the earlier battle were still lying on the ground, but the Germans had taken their boots. It is well known that German boots were very inferior to the British ones.

Thanks pmaasz ( how do you pronounce that name !!!!!!) welcome to the thread.

Harry

[Desdichado]

Under the Laws & Usages of War, the "pillage and maltreatment" of the dead was prohibited, pursuant to Article 26 of the Geneva Convention. Personal items found on the field of battle or on the dead were to be collected and transmitted to the "persons interested, through the authorities of their own country." Under the Hague Rules, the personal property of POWs remained just that, except for horses, arms and military papers.

The law seems to be trying to distinguish between personal property, and that propery issued to its men by the belligerent state. Could such property be considered the legitimate spoils of war? It's a grey area but there is some precedent. During the war between Russia and Japan, at the battle of Sha Ho, Japanese soldiers took the boots of Russian prisoners and gave them their own knackered old boots in exchange. It was admitted that this was irregular but the Japanese were excused on the grounds that "The men did not take the boots to enrich themselves but in order better to serve their country." Apparently this compulsory boot exchange took place quite often during the Franco-Prussian war of 1870-1.

In the photograph the man in the foreground whose upper body is covered still has his boots on. Some are stripped of their socks and all have had their braces removed. All these items would appear then to be legitimate booty.

[PBI]

Harry..The Line i used about a "Soldiers Job being to Engage & Destroy the Enemy" was in fact imparted to me by a Senior Officer,when i was a Serving Member of H.M.Forces.I can also assure you Harry that many an Officer in WW1 had the UTMOST Difficulty in Restraining some of the more "Dedicated" Souvenir/Booty Hunters,many Officers solved this Problem by letting these Soldiers go off and do what they wanted to do,on the proviso that they bought back some worthwhile piece of Intelligence with them...This Paragraph is from Charles Edmonds "A Subalterns War"..Page 47...."Presently Sgt Coke,a Fair Haired Pleasant Young Man,Drifted in to Conversation with Me,"Theres a Lot of Dead Boches along here Sir",He said Cheerfully,"Come along Sir" said Sgt Coke leading the way over the Holes and Hummocks of Chalk."when We were up at Messines they lay about thick.I pulled the Teeth out of One of Them and made a Necklace of them,ALL THE CHAPS used to Rummage round them for Souvenirs.Lord they used to smell in the Summer when the Flies were Bad.Sgt Coke was enjoying Himself,"theres some God Ones over here" he said "in the Big Crater","come on Sir".I went Fascinated.

[Desdichado]

Harry..The Line i used about a "Soldiers Job being to Engage & Destroy the Enemy" was in fact imparted to me by a Senior Officer,when i was a Serving Member of H.M.Forces.

As I'm in a pedantic mood, the Laws & Usages of Wars describes a soldier's job in part thus:

"Killing and disabling the enemy combatants; constraining them by defeat or exhaustion to surrender, that is taking them prisoners; and the investment, bombardment, or seige of the fortresses."

Quite a mouthful eh?

[loganshort]

Men who have been exposed to all the propaganda stories about the blood thirsty, baby murdering, women raping hun, would have little or no hesitation killing them. Not only a case of kill or be killed but as a revengfull reprisal for their dead comrades and even dead friends or relatives killed in Britain by the Zeppelin bombs. Even old Harry Patch said of the attacking German he deliberately wounded, if it had been after the deaths of his comrades he would not have hesitated to kill him. The Germans were the enemy, foreign brutes in the eyes of the soldiers who did not know any better. I cannot imagine myself killing anyone but I think in war all our sensibilities are warped.

[Beau Geste]

Under the Laws & Usages of War, the "pillage and maltreatment" of the dead was prohibited, pursuant to Article 26 of the Geneva Convention. All these items would appear then to be legitimate booty.

..

Agreed. As I keep on saying, I have nothing against taking items from the dead. What I'm against is accelerating one's passage into the "after life," by murdering the injured, simply to gain access to his possessions.

Harry

[Beau Geste]

Men who have been exposed to all the propaganda stories about the blood thirsty, baby murdering, women raping hun, would have little or no hesitation killing them. Not only a case of kill or be killed but as a revengfull reprisal for their dead comrades and even dead friends or relatives killed in Britain by the Zeppelin bombs. Even old Harry Patch said of the attacking German he deliberately wounded, if it had been after the deaths of his comrades he would not have hesitated to kill him. The Germans were the enemy, foreign brutes in the eyes of the soldiers who did not know any better. I cannot imagine myself killing anyone but I think in war all our sensibilities are warped.

I agree Logan. Experiences of that type would influence the behaviour of a lot of people. But it is extremely difficult to turn a humane human being into a savage simply by propaganda. There were as many chivalrous Germans in WW1 as there were Brits or Aussies or...or ... and so on. Yes, a lot would be influenced by the stories they were sometimes fed and a lot wouldn't need to be persuaded to act like beasts but I'm convinced that the vast majority acted like human beings. They did their duty, they killed the enemy and took from their dead bodies souvenires and articles of equipment they needed to survive but that's it.

Harry

[Beau Geste]

Harry..The Line i used about a "Soldiers Job being to Engage & Destroy the Enemy" was in fact imparted to me by a Senior Officer,when i was a Serving Member of H.M.Forces.I can also assure you Harry that many an Officer in WW1 had the UTMOST Difficulty in Restraining some of the more "Dedicated" Souvenir/Booty Hunters,many Officers solved this Problem by letting these Soldiers go off and do what they wanted to do,on the proviso that they bought back some worthwhile piece of Intelligence with them...This Paragraph is from Charles Edmonds "A Subalterns War"..Page 47...."Presently Sgt Coke,a Fair Haired Pleasant Young Man,Drifted in to Conversation with Me,"Theres a Lot of Dead Boches along here Sir",He said Cheerfully,"Come along Sir" said Sgt Coke leading the way over the Holes and Hummocks of Chalk."when We were up at Messines they lay about thick.I pulled the Teeth out of One of Them and made a Necklace of them,ALL THE CHAPS used to Rummage round them for Souvenirs.Lord they used to smell in the Summer when the Flies were Bad.Sgt Coke was enjoying Himself,"theres some God Ones over here" he said "in the Big Crater","come on Sir".I went Fascinated.

More of the same PBI ! You've convinced me that there were a lot of "bad uns" I wouldn't want to meet on a dark night up an entry in Kirby. But that doesn't mean that it was the way things were on the Western Front. You will have to do better than recite for me the odd example from your research that shows me something I already knew: that there were soldiers serving in all the armies engaged in WW1 who were a disgrace to the uniforms they wore.

The vast majority were lads who were trying to stay alive and if that meant killing the foe so be it. They would often collect souveniers or take from the dead articles that might help them survive another day but most of them didn't disgrace the regiment they served in.

If it makes me naive to believe that my fellow man was better than those you describe, I'll live with it.

Kind regards,

Harry

[Beau Geste]

Under the Laws & Usages of War, the "pillage and maltreatment" of the dead was prohibited, pursuant to Article 26 of the Geneva Convention. Personal items found on the field of battle or on the dead were to be collected and transmitted to the "persons interested, through the authorities of their own country." Under the Hague Rules, the personal property of POWs remained just that, except for horses, arms and military papers.

The law seems to be trying to distinguish between personal property, and that propery issued to its men by the belligerent state.

Thanks Des, I don't suppose for a minute that the distinction drawn in your useful posting made any difference to those intent on collecting either souveniers or items of kit that would make their lives more comfortable. It's nice to know though that an organisation like this felt the need to control man's inquisitive nature.

Harry

[PhilB]

In the introduction to Last Man Standing, memoirs of 2/Lt Norman Collins, Seaforth Highlanders, the editor says:-

"Even after his first taste of battle he is a keen souvenir collector and, while claiming to be to busy to collect much, still mentions picking up a German helmet, a pistol, some shoulder straps, a couple of bells, a bayonet and other bits and pieces." Must be in our genes!

[PBI]

Harry,there are many,many Accounts Similar to the Ones i have Quoted.I have NO Time for the Romance of War and its Associated Artwork and in some cases its Poetry.War is a Filthy,Vile,Business and anyone who has undergone it surely would be Changed Forever.I would Humbly Suggest that Modern Warfare is Not a Chivalrous affair between Gentlemen from Opposing Rifle Clubs as some Forum Members would have us Believe.I notice Fortunino Matania never Painted any Pictures of Men Blown to pieces or Mutilated beyond Recognition by Modern Weapons.

[Desdichado]

Thanks Des, I don't suppose for a minute that the distinction drawn in your useful posting made any difference to those intent on collecting either souveniers or items of kit that would make their lives more comfortable. It's nice to know though that an organisation like this felt the need to control man's inquisitive nature.

Harry

I shouldn't think they gave it a moment's thought, even assuming they knew the provisions of the Geneva Convention. It's hard to imagine a Tommy taking a nice cigarette lighter from a German officer, then handing it back saying, "No. The Geneva Convention says I can't do this. I'll make do with a damp box of Swan Vestas instead Mein Herr."

[AlfaMale]

A related story from the Second World War: my grandfather was a pharmacist with the 8th army in North Africa and he told me a story of a wounded German officer who had his watch stolen while he was in hospital by a young soldier who gave it to a nurse he liked. The officer complained, the watch was recovered and the soldier put "on a charge". It must have been tempting for that soldier to think that no-one would ever bother about a German watch, and certainly not find out who did it, and where there's temptation there's always those who give in to it.

A rather more sickening story, and one I think he only ever told to me, was of being on a ship and striking up a conversation with a Welsh soldier who told him that he'd found a severely wounded German soldier on the beach "and danced on his stomach with my army boots until he died". That incident had always bothered him I think: it was murder, plain and simple.

[Beau Geste]

I shouldn't think they gave it a moment's thought, even assuming they knew the provisions of the Geneva Convention. It's hard to imagine a Tommy taking a nice cigarette lighter from a German officer, then handing it back saying, "No. The Geneva Convention says I can't do this. I'll make do with a damp box of Swan Vestas instead Mein Herr."

Indeed it is Des. Thanks for the humour, the thread needed a lighter touch.

Kind regards

Harry

[Beau Geste]

Harry,there are many,many Accounts Similar to the Ones i have Quoted.I have NO Time for the Romance of War and its Associated Artwork and in some cases its Poetry.War is a Filthy,Vile,Business and anyone who has undergone it surely would be Changed Forever.I would Humbly Suggest that Modern Warfare is Not a Chivalrous affair between Gentlemen from Opposing Rifle Clubs as some Forum Members would have us Believe.I notice Fortunino Matania never Painted any Pictures of Men Blown to pieces or Mutilated beyond Recognition by Modern Weapons.

Hello PBI,

I wont pretend to know who Fortunino Matania is. My wife reckons he was one of the Italians Mourinho signed for Chelsea a year and a bit ago,

Seriously though I agree with a great deal that you have contributed to this thread. All we perhaps differ on is our view of the nature of man. In an earlier posting I said that I would prefer to side with the view of a Rousseau rather than a Hobbes and I do truly believe that man is basically "good." I'm not naive enough to reject the idea that he is also capable of great evil. Your illustrations have tended to focus on this and I agree, these people did exist on both sides. However, the literature is replete with examples of people who avoided the temptation to become corrupted and to sink to the depths that you describe so clearly.

I think, my friend, that we will just have to agree to differ on this one.

Harry

[Beau Geste]

It must have been tempting for that soldier to think that no-one would ever bother about a German watch, and certainly not find out who did it, and where there's temptation there's always those who give in to it.

I suppose every lawbreaker believes he'll get away with it.

A rather more sickening story, and one I think he only ever told to me, was of being on a ship and striking up a conversation with a Welsh soldier who told him that he'd found a severely wounded German soldier on the beach "and danced on his stomach with my army boots until he died". That incident had always bothered him I think: it was murder, plain and simple.

Awful. He deserved to be shot!

Harry

[AlfaMale]

A rather more sickening story, and one I think he only ever told to me, was of being on a ship and striking up a conversation with a Welsh soldier who told him that he'd found a severely wounded German soldier on the beach "and danced on his stomach with my army boots until he died". That incident had always bothered him I think: it was murder, plain and simple.

Awful. He deserved to be shot!

Harry

I agree. I think what really bothered him was that this guy volunteered the story like he was pleased with himself

[Beau Geste]

I agree. I think what really bothered him was that this guy volunteered the story like he was pleased with himself

I think he must have been "sick" Alpha.

Harry

[ShirlD]

I can see PBI's point about war being a thoroughly unromantic, filthy, vile business that would bring anyone to anger, despair and murderous rage. Yet through all of that there is story after story of mateship, concern for humanity and a struggle against the whole appalling misery. Very little of war seems to me to be black and white, or simply explained. Against one horrible act is a balance of something good and that is what we have to explore in our own minds to try and make any sense of anything. I imagine that is what poets, artists and authors try to do, in order to make sense of life in a hell. Seems to me a sort of survival mechanism.

To take things from corpses that you can use can be rationalised, to souvenir hunt can be rationalised with reservations, to rob, kill maim in order to souvenir hunt, or take boots for instance, seems to cross some sort of boundary. At least, I think that is the way I see it

Cheers

Shirley

[Beau Geste]

I can see PBI's point about war being a thoroughly unromantic, filthy, vile business that would bring anyone to anger, despair and murderous rage. Yet through all of that there is story after story of mateship, concern for humanity and a struggle against the whole appalling misery. Cheers

Shirley

Thank you Shirley for a very thoughtful posting. I agree with everything you say. Of course PBI was right when he decribed war as being a "filthy vile business" and he was also right when he said that it's main purpose, as far as soldiers are concerned, is to "kill the enemy". And yet, somehow many of them never allowed themselves to lose their basic humanity. Yes, they collected souveniers; yes they took from the dead those things they needed to survive, but I'm sure that relatively few allowed themselves to become less than human as the soldier in Alphamale's recent posting did.

Harry

[Desdichado]

There is a deep cultural aspect to this topic also. We rightly abhor the thought of a British Tommy killing a wounded and defenceless German but it seems that this doesn't stretch to other cultures and races. I know this thread concerns the Great War but I thought it might be worth mentioning events from another conflict to illustrate my point.

I have a book entitled "The Fall of Hong Kong" by Tim Carew which is likely now out of print. The author uses anecdotal evidence to describe the awful battle for the colony that took place over Christmas 1941. No quarter was asked or given. The defenders were a mixed force of British, Canadian, Sikh and Rajput troops. The Indian soldiers fought like tigers and killed every Japanese soldier they could for they knew what their fate would be if the Japanese took them alive. The British did likewise, mowing down the attacking Japanese with machine guns then finishing off the wounded with grenades. It was tit-for-tat and I cannot remember anyone with whom I have discussed the subject of the war against Japan who was not of the opinon that the Japanese deserved everything they got.

The My Lai massacre in Vietnam was condoned by the Pentagon with the platoon commander, the odious Lt. William Calley, getting a Presidential Pardon for allowing his men to slaughter non-combatants. Women and girls were raped and men and boys shot out of hand. Calley lives in Texas now and is apparently happy to give interviews as long as the price is right. Would Calley have been pardoned for butchering Westerners?

Harry, Your earlier mention of Rousseau is apt. He thought that man was best as he is by nature, and that human nature is corrupted by life within an organised society which serves only to debase man's innate being. Given the subject of this thread, I wonder if he got that one wrong and that it is in man's nature to be bestial whether in nature or otherwise.

[Pete1052]

My Lai wasn't "condoned by the Pentagon," it was a case of a platoon-sized element running amok. Calley was a man who should never have been commissioned in the first place.

[AlfaMale]

I think he must have been "sick" Alpha.

Harry

Just to clarify: that's "Alfa" as in Alfa Romeo, not Alpha as in "Alpha Male" - I'm not quite that big headed!