Souveniers taken from the dead in time of war

[TGWW]

The veneer of civilisation and humanity is extremely thin. This is a fascinating thread.

Other parallels exist. In most recent times the breakdownin law and order and humanity in New Orleans was very rapid. Every man for himself kicked in very quickly. I struggle with this idyllic world of working class pals marching off heroically to their inevitable deaths. I suspect that for some it was great cover for criminal activity and all the more so as the "victims" (if the enemy) are extremely unlikely to call the police!

Current UK population of working age males is about 29m. Currently 77 000 working age males are in prison. That's about 0.2%.

If 12 million men served during the 1914-18 conflict in British units then using the above as an estimate then that would account for 24 000 men having a criminal tendency.

It would perhaps be interesting if crime figures at home were available for 1914-18. In theory most of the crminal elements would either be at the front or in prison already so crime should perhaps fall. However, whilst we like to think of everyone joining in and helping out I suspect that the privations on the home front actually fuelled more crime.

[Beau Geste]

The veneer of civilisation and humanity is extremely thin. This is a fascinating thread.

Hello again TGWW,

What an interesting point you raise and I'm sure there is more than a modicum of truth in what you say.

The "climate" of taking articles from the dead in The Great War would have proved a real temptation for many who, in normal circumstances, would never have thought of committing a felony. The word "larceny" (which is, of courrse, a crime) implies "the felonious taking away of another's personal goods with an intent to convert them to one's own use". There is no "defence" mentioned in the definition that makes it any less a crime if the person stolen from is already dead. One can argue therefore, as you do, crime must have increased tremmendously because of this universal practice.

Harry

[Max]

The Duke of Wellington did not object to his men looting the corpses of the French dead and wounded after a battle, but if a man was caught looting in a captured town, he would likely find himself on the end of a rope sharpish.

If this is true the British army must have had a vast amount of rope to cope with the aftermath of the taking of Ciudad Rodrigo.

[Beau Geste]

As a retired major with twenty six years service and one who joined the Household Cavalry as a trooper before rising up through the ranks before being commissioned, I will reluctantly respond to your posting and say just three things. Firstly, your brother in law would no doubt be really embarrassed if he had occasion to read what you've written . Secondly, an MBE indicates hard work in certain jobs and very often indeed equally able people weren't in a position to earn that award simply because a vacancy in one of those recognised areas wasn't available at the appropriate time. Thirdly, your final paragraph is absolute nonsense: there are many excellent ex NCOs who have earned a commission and hold the rank of major or above.

Harry

[Desdichado]

Nor.d, I don't know if you've seen the programme Underworld at War, but it has some interesting things to say about the criminals who inhabited British cities during WWII. The looting of bombed-out buildings was quite common and there are recorded cases of corpses being looted and people being murdered and their bodies dumped amongst those or air-raid victims. The Notting Hill murderer, Christie, was one such creature who did this.

TGWW, I don't know if any crime statistics are available from the period of the Great War but you cannot use the male prison population of Britain today as a yardstick for measuring the crime rate then. For example , between 1914-1918, 6,000 men were imprisoned without trial as Conscientious Objectors. After the Military Service Act became law in 1916, civilian tribunals were set up to judge each case. There were extra-judicial proceedings, bypassing the courts altogether. Dartmoor and Wakefield prisons were set aside for COs. I do not consider these men to be criminals as they were denied the due process of law.

[centurion]

If this is true the British army must have had a vast amount of rope to cope with the aftermath of the taking of Ciudad Rodrigo.

No both towns (Ciudad Rodrigo and Badajoz )refused the call to surrender once a practical breech had been made. Under the rules of war extant if stormed the town could be legitimately subject to rape and pillage. The rational behind this was that casualties amongst the assaulters in a storming was very high. If the town had been summoned (and refused terms) when an assault was certain to succeed then they were deemed to have caused "an unecessary effusion of blood". Wellington was personally against the practice but is on record as expressing the view that as the assaulting troops had suffered such horrendous casualties then he was unable to refuse the survivors what they regarded as their legitimate right without risking a mutiny. He did limit the licence to a fixed period - after which penalties would apply as usual.

One interesting side effect was that a Spanish girl called Juanna fleeing from the mayhem in the town sought refuge with a young Rifles officer Harry Smith. They married and many years later when General Smith was serving in South Africa the town of Ladysmith was named after her.

[Desdichado]

If this is true the British army must have had a vast amount of rope to cope with the aftermath of the taking of Ciudad Rodrigo.

Max, there are many recorded cases of soldiers being hanged or shot for stealing from or harming civilians during the Peninsular campaign. After the Battle of San Sebastian, two soldiers, one belonging to the 51st Regiment of Foot, were charged with rape. Wellington was present when the men were brought in and he noted that the 51st had acquitted itself well in the fighting and so the soldier of the 51st was spared execution only if he consented to execute his accomplice, which he duly did.

The behaviour of the British troops after the fall of Ciudad Rodrigo amounted to a full scale riot which was only quelled when Picton himself took to the streets with his officers to restore order. Badajoz was worse, being nothing more than a mutiny. Officers who tried to intervene were shot. Obviously Wellington was not about to execute an entire army but many individuals were hanged as an example.

[Beau Geste]

Nor.d, Yes Des , I watched it.

TGWW,

Nor I. Good point TGWW.

Harry

[Beau Geste]

(1) , and I said I was not speaking for him thats why I did not name him

(but I cannot be proved a lie)

(2)

(3) (4)

Nor.d I'm relatively new to The Forum as well so I'm still learning the ropes so to speak. I joined because I am seriously interested in The Great War and because there are people on it like Paul Reed, PBI, Mruk, John Hartley, etc whose experience and opinion I really do admire. You sir are a bore and if I knew how to silence you I would. If there is a moderator monitoring this thread, I would ask you to intervene here.

Harry

[auchonvillerssomme]

This thread seems to have drifted ever so slightly, what relevence has anyones brothers MBE got to do with WW1? No one has to justify their service credentials or medal entitlement to anyone here.

Mick

[Terry_Reeves]

This person has been dealt with. He is well known for his nonsenses. Now that you know his "accent" simply ignore him if he appears again under a different name.

TR

[Beau Geste]

This person has been dealt with. He is well known for his nonsenses. Now that you know his "accent" simply ignore him if he appears again under a different name.

TR

Thank you Terry. It needed a firm hand from someone like you.

Harry

This thread seems to have drifted ever so slightly, what relevence has anyones brothers MBE got to do with WW1? No one has to justify their service credentials or medal entitlement to anyone here.

Mick

Exactly. Now lets get back to sound common sense and an interesting thread.

Harry

[demgbr]

Thank you Terry. It needed a firm hand from someone like you.

Harry

Exactly. Now lets get back to sound common sense and an interesting thread.

Harry

I was going to add an incident which concerned my late father- in-law and a German soldier after he was badly wounded and left on the battlefield during the Somme offensive but this thread has drifted so much I won't bother.

[PBI]

Come on Denizon,i would like to hear what You have to tell us..without any Decent input how can We put the Thread Back on Track..Just Browsing Some of my Books,and Some Soldiers Accounts mention that Surrendering Troops from all sides sometimes used to press upon Tommy/Fritz Prized Items of Loot,I.E.Cameras,Wrist and Pocket Watches,Cameras,Binoculars,Cigars,Food,Drink,the Reasoning behind these Acts might have been,if i FREELY GIVE My Valuables He will be less Likely to Kill Me/Ill Treat Me.I think that The German Soldaten were very Fond of Our Corned Beef and White Bread,on the other hand our Lads were certainly not very impressed with German Black Bread and Ersatz Coffee.

[centurion]

Lads were certainly not very impressed with German Black Bread and Ersatz Coffee.

But do appear to have regarded watches, field glasses and, in some cases. swords as well worth having, as being of very high quality.

[PBI]

But do appear to have regarded watches, field glasses and, in some cases. swords as well worth having, as being of very high quality.

Totally Correct of Course.I forgot to Mention that German "Solingen" Cut Throat Razors were also very Highly Prized,as Centurion points out the Quality of some of the German Soldiers Issue Kit was Superior to anything Issued to Our Troops..(No Change here Then).

[Beau Geste]

Come on Denizon,i would like to hear what You have to tell us..without any Decent input how can We put the Thread Back on Track

Hear hear, come on Denizon join in.

A thought Russ! You mention that sometimes ( how often ?) captured German soldiers were anxious to foist upon those who took them prisoner vualuable items such as watches, cameras etc in the hope they wouldn't be harmed. If this was common practice, it suggests that they must have feared for their lives. We have all read of instances where prisoners were ill treated or even killed.

Two questions if I may.

Firstly, was this sort of behaviour a serious feature of life on The Western Front, and by "serious" I mean frequent enough to put the fear of God into captured German soldiers ? Secondly, Was it something our soldiers did as well because they were afraid of what might happen to them if they were captured ?

Harry

[Beau Geste]

Totally Correct of Course.I forgot to Mention that German "Solingen" Cut Throat Razors were also very Highly Prized,as Centurion points out the Quality of some of the German Soldiers Issue Kit was Superior to anything Issued to Our Troops..(No Change here Then).

No change indeed !!!!!

Harry

[centurion]

I mean frequent enough to put the fear of God into captured German soldiers ?

I've seen contemporary accounts of German soldiers being warned of the dreadful fate that might befall them if they fell into enemy hands. However these are all from British sources so I've no way of determining the truth of the matter. It might have been a way of discouraging surrender. However there are documented accounts of German soldiers, in some numbers, during the last actions of 1918 concealing them selves to await a suitable toime to surrender to advancing troops (understandable I suppose if you're convinced that the war is lost anyway) so it doesn't seem to have worked!

[PBI]

Again Harry,the Offering of Articles that would have been considered Highly Prized By The Enemy,seems to be as Old as Warfare Itself..Indeed a Nation Paying Tribute to another was a way to avoid Death and Destruction.Have you read Martin Middlebrooks Excellent Book "The Kaisers Battle"..and another worthy read is Denis Winters "Deaths Men",and last but not least "Hot Blood,Cold Steel" By Andy Simpson..????...Forgot to Mention Concerning Items of Loot,In WW2 My Mums Oldest Brother Albert,Managed to Pinch a Stereogram plus 200 Foot of Silk from somewhere in Germany,and got them safely Delivered via some wheeling and Dealing back to the Family Abode in Carshalton.The Stereogram lasted well into the early 70s.

[Beau Geste]

Yes Centurian I've seen these as well but it seems that for each reference that suggested it was quite common there were others that suggest the opposite.

Harry

[Beau Geste]

the Offering of Articles that would have been considered Highly Prized By The Enemy,seems to be as Old as Warfare Itself..Indeed a Nation Paying Tribute to another was a way to avoid Death and Destruction.

Yes Russ, it might sound silly but one psychologist likened it to a kid in the school playground giving his dinner money to a bully to keep him "sweet". In this context the practice is as old as man himself so there is no doubt that prisoners of war, afraid that they might be killed, would follow a similar pattern. I've seen references to it on The Western Front but as I said in a response to Centurian's last posting,

I've also read that it didn't happen nearly as often as some suggest.

Yes I've read Martin Middlebrooks Excellent Book "The Kaisers Battle" but some time ago

I'llorder the others from the library asp.

Thanks for the suggestions.

Harry

[Pete1052]

By the way, Harry, I was also an enlisted man and an officer too, although I only made it up to being a captain with three years in grade. Some of these military leadership issues and the various moral dilemmas that come with them are not much understood by many people who haven't worn the uniform.

[Beau Geste]

By the way, Harry, I was also an enlisted man and an officer too, although I only made it up to being a captain with three years in grade. Some of these military leadership issues and the various moral dilemmas that come with them are not much understood by many people who haven't worn the uniform.

Hello Pete,

The use of the word "only" in your posting makes your achievement sound a lot less creditable than it was. We both know it's not easy to earn the right to move into the officers' mess and anyway if you were three years "in (the) grade" you were getting close to your majority.

I'm not sure though that I agree with the main point of your posting. It must be obvious to everyone by now that my interest in the Great War is focused on the human issues that affected both those at the front and the people they left behind when they answered the call. To some extent I suppose that our service with the colours helps us to empathise with some of the issues being discussed but I really do believe that anyone who claims to possess an ounce of humanity, and whose interest has been sustained by visits to the battlefields and the literature of WW1 can do the same.

Kind regards,

Harry

[Desdichado]

I have every respect for men who are commissioned from the ranks although I personally didn't come across too many in my time. My father wasn't commissioned. He went in as an AC2, became a Sergeant pilot, was promoted to Warrant Officer and, come the peace, he was demoted back to AC2 and discharged; his aircrew rank being only temporary. His younger brother, a navigator, died, aged 20, over Leipzig in February 1944. He would have been commissioned but for his early death as his CO had put him in for one.

Back on to battlefield souveniers, I've been to local markets in Paris, Boulogne and other places and seen all manner of WWI trophies for sale, from cap badges to trench art. I'm sure some of it is fake but this thread made me think about the origins of some of the items and I wonder if any of them were stripped from a dead body or taken from prisoners. Perhaps a psychometrist would know.