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Remembered Today:

Souveniers taken from the dead in time of war


Beau Geste

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Some souvenir hunting was obviously pretty innocent! I'm still convinced that 99% of "souvenirs" were obtained with similar motives

Absolutely Phil. I don't think anyone who has contributed to this thread would disagree with you. It's the 1% left that leaves a really bad taste !!!!

Harry

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I.L.Read in "Of Those We Loved" Mentions coming across a Man from the N.Fusiliers at Bazentin,who would take the Gold Teeth from German Corpses.My Dad came across British Soldiers in Korea Going through Dead Men Pockets and Packs for Cigarettes and anything else they Could Utilise.He always said that the Dead were beyond caring anyway.Many accounts from WW1 mention Men stranded in No Mans Land living off of Rations taken from their Dead Comrades.Also i believe that Some Members in the R.A.M.C. were adept at Looting Live and Dead Men...hence the Nickname Rob All My Comrades.The Looting of the Dead has surely been going on as long as Men have Fought Wars,a classic Photo of this is of German Troops in the Ardenne Offensive taking the Boots from Dead American Soldiers,simply because the Bootswere superior to the Issue German Boot.Similar Happened in the Falklands War..British Soldiers taking the Boots from Argentine Dead,simply because the British Issue Boot were Rubbish,and the Dead Argentines had no further use for them.

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I.L.Read in "Of Those We Loved" Mentions coming across a Man from the N.Fusiliers at Bazentin,who would take the Gold Teeth from German Corpses.My Dad came across British Soldiers in Korea Going through Dead Men Pockets and Packs for Cigarettes and anything else they Could Utilise.He always said that the Dead were beyond caring anyway.Many accounts from WW1 mention Men stranded in No Mans Land living off of Rations taken from their Dead Comrades.Also i believe that Some Members in the R.A.M.C. were adept at Looting Live and Dead Men...hence the Nickname Rob All My Comrades.The Looting of the Dead has surely been going on as long as Men have Fought Wars,a classic Photo of this is of German Troops in the Ardenne Offensive taking the Boots from Dead American Soldiers,simply because the Bootswere superior to the Issue German Boot.Similar Happened in the Falklands War..British Soldiers taking the Boots from Argentine Dead,simply because the British Issue Boot were Rubbish,and the Dead Argentines had no further use for them.

Yes, I have no doubts at all that equipment etc was lifted off the dead of whatever side on the battlefield for as long as there have been wars. That isn't the issue anymore PBI. As Auchonvillerssomme, I think said (forgive me Mick if it wasn't you who said it) 'If they're dead they no longer have any need for things' or words to that effect. Taking the boots off a dead person, enemy or colleague is understandable (I suppose that sometimes it's necessary if one isn't supplied with decent kit in the first place !!!!) It's the associated killing of an injured and helpless person to rob him that is the issue now. Or the robbing of an injured soldier by stretcher bearers of one's own side. Surely these actions are unforgiveable ?

Harry

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Sadly Harry from Various Accounts i have read it would seem that some Men had no Qualms at all about Robbing a Dead or Dying Man wether He was Friend or Foe,if a Man was Dying of His Wounds He couldnt Defend Himself from the Robbers so it was easy for the Robber.Accounts also exist which tell of men who survived Their Wounds only to get to England or Base Hospital to Find that All Their Personal Possessions I.E. Wedding Rings,Watches,Money,Fags,Matches etc had been stolen whilst they were either unconscious or had been sleeping.This Scenario is covered from the German Viewpoint in the Book and The Film "All Quiet on the Western Front"..Paul Baumers Dying Comrade Has His Watch Stolen by One of the Medical Orderlys.Sadly Harry these were Hard Times which Bred Men that would have been Accustomed to Death and Suffering and Their attitude would have been ,"If i Dont Take It ,Someone Else Will".No Doubt some of these Men had a very profitable War.

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Sadly Harry these were Hard Times which Bred Men that would have been Accustomed to Death and Suffering and Their attitude would have been ,"If i Dont Take It ,Someone Else Will".No Doubt some of these Men had a very profitable War.

I'm sure you're right PBI but it saddens me to say that. I was brought up and have always thought that man's instincts were in some ways better than that. Maybe you're right; you didn't say it but perhaps I've been naive, maybe war really does harden people to the point where their behaviour lost all semblance of humanity. But for every example I read of man behaving in the way you describe, I read a dozen where he, be he 'one of ours' or an enemy, acts like a warm and compassioate human being whose treatment of friend and foe is in the traditions of the christian faith.

They were sad times PBI but in some amazing way, they were glorious times as well and in the end goodness very often prevailed.

Am I being naive to say that ?

I'd welcome your opinions.

Harry

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I believe we should understand the whole picture but I think we can look back and be rightly proud of our grandfathers just as i am proud of the services today and the fact I was once part of it....plenty of bad-uns then and now. But on the whole good people, professionals who were and are the best in the world.

Mick

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I believe we should understand the whole picture but I think we can look back and be rightly proud of our grandfathers just as i am proud of the services today and the fact I was once part of it....plenty of bad-uns then and now. But on the whole good people, professionals who were and are the best in the world.

Mick

Mick, how right you are. I meet periodically with friends I served with and a more patriotic group you couldn't hope to meet. Yes, there were bad uns then as there are now but on the whole, the vast majority then and now, were and are the salt of the earth. And, I might add we were / are lucky to have them.

Harry

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Whatever ones views are on stealing from the dead. I believe such practices would have been almost self-regulating. Image being taken prisoner and being found in possession of personal items from a fallen comrade or found stealing from a comrade who had just fallen, I believe justice would have been delivered rather speedily.

Regards

gerb

Agree totally you would not even think of stealing off the fallen

Sods law if the enemy found their comerades kit on you for you would suffer a lingering death

And if you stole off your own dead comrades and got caught your head would be used as a football

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Some Regimental Museums and National Museums in the U.K. hold Photographs,Trophys,Personal Documents,Diaries etc,etc,which are actually listed as having been taken from the Bodies of a Dead German/Enemy Soldier By Pte So and So and some Photos in Books are credited as being found on the Bodies of Enemy Soldiers,does this also make the Museum/Archive Looters then ?.Also many Photos from WW1,WW2,and the American Civil War show Corpses that have had their Pockets turned inside out and emptied...but of course i am sure that this was done purely to gather Intelligence (Not).I wonder how Many German Soldiers found wearing looted British Boots were Shot ?..vice versa how many Allied Soldiers Shot for utilising German Equipment which in many cases was often superior to our own ?...not many i will wager.Battle hardened Troops on Both Sides wouldnt have given a Toss either way,they would simply have been too busy trying to stay Alive to bother with taking the Moral High Ground with every Enemy found to be using captured Kit.As a Parting Salvo Robert Graves in "Goodbye to All That" mentions going into Mametz Wood and taking The Greatcoats from Dead Germans as it was going to be a Cold Night !!!..I also seem to recall that He mentions many of our Troops were utilising Captured/Looted/Liberated German Waterproof Sheets I.E. Capes as Graves says that "They were infinetly Better than Ours".Then there is the Famous Photo of the 5th N.Fus taken after a Raid at St.Eloi,every Man in the Photo is showing off some Piece of Enemy Kit from Weapons to Helmets,Caps Pistols,Gas Masks,Packs,plus i am sure there must have been a Fair bit of plunder that wasnt Shown.I wonder how much of that Loot found its way into Museums and collections in England ??? and is now proudly exhibited....I am sure that many Men in that Photo were normal,well adjusted Blokes,but in a War situation principles and Morals in many cases go "Out The Window"..Many Social restraints also no longer apply or can indeed be Applied.I also notice that Not ONE Execution in WW1 in the B.E.F. or C.E.F. was carried out for the Offence of Stealing from/Looting the Dead.

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And if you stole off your own dead comrades and got caught your head would be used as a football

Even if it was as common as many of the postings on this thread suggest? It seems that it was a common enough occurrence.

It's the actual killing of an injured person on the battlefield to get at their belongings or stealing from one's own injured comrades that was really "against the grain".

Harry

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I agree PBI, but the thread has moved on. I apologise for obviously not making it clear enough. The sort of examples you give are examples of the sort of behaviour that was common and understandable on the battlefied during WW1 or any other war for that matter. Most (all ?) contributers to the thread have agreed on that.

It is now focused on those instances where the injured of either side in the conflict were despatched in cold blood so that the person who did the killing could get at that individual's possessions. Or, where people, in a position of trust - say stretcher bearers - stole from the injured that they were helping to carry to an aid station.

I think you will agree that there is a difference between what Graves did in Mametz Wood, or what countless "tommies" did when they were found using a cape or the boots they had taken from dead Germans.

Thank you though for all the excellent examples.

Harry

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This is an interesting photo with no caption. I think it`s a medic or stretcher bearer taking a wrist watch off a dead Scottish soldier. One hopes it`s for return to his next of kin.

post-2329-1196856056.jpg

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Hi Harry,

I think you're flogging a dead horse here, the anecdotal stories about the murder of wounded/POWs you are looking for are going to be very rare as people will not admit to doing this or even knowing about people doing this hideous crime, the closest you will get would be execution of prisoners to save the captors meagre rations which is fairly well known. Offical records will be massaged to keep the regiments name and old soldiers are very reluctent to talk about crimes they or their comrades have committed( my uncle after much persuasion and 60 years admitted he executed a unarmed German officer when he liberated Belsen Concentation Camp after seeing the state of the inmates)

Besides the people who do this have generally a very short life expectency if captured they normally shot out of hand if found with their comrades possessions

Cheers

Ian

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QUOTE (Phil_B @ Dec 5 2007, 11:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This is an interesting photo with no caption. I think it`s a medic or stretcher bearer taking a wrist watch off a dead Scottish soldier. One hopes it`s for return to his next of kin.

Thanks Phil, yes indeed, let's hope that's what happened to the watch but from what I've read in books and on this thread, I doubt it. If that sounds ungracious I'm sorry; I didn't mean it to be but I get the feeling that that sort of behaviour wasn't the norm.

I don't think I've seen a photograph that is as poignnt and tragic as this. In a sense it encapslates just about everything that characterised The Great War.

Thanks for posting it Phil

Harry

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That looks like a Signaller's brassard he's wearing.

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Guys..If a Soldier was KIA and could not be Identified,What Happened to His Wrist Watch,Wedding Ring,Money and other Valuables ???...As Re the Murder of P.O.Ws,there are certainly Accounts that Freely attest to this Fact on Both Sides.Also there are Accounts of Enemy Officers being Taken POW and having all Their Decorations and Valuables thieved from Them,upon making complaint to the Nearest Allied Officer they were more or less told that They were lucky to still be Alive,as some Battalions in the BEF,CEF and AIF were not to Keen on being Burdened Down with POWS.I think C.Edmunds mentions in one of His Books an example of One of His NCOs Murdering an Enemy in Cold Blood.The German Officer Concerned had Surrendered and had presented His Field Glasses to said NCO who accepted them,then promptly Shot the German Officer.Also many instances are recorded were Men were detailed to escort POWS to the Rear but Murdered them in Transit and Looted their personal Possessions.Nothing really New,as i would have thought these Actions have been going on Since the Dawn of Warfare itself.

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I certainly remember my Grandfather (RE) telling us that it was the practice, on coming across a dead body - German or Allied - to search the pockets and then turn the pockets inside out, so that other chaps following would not waste their time searching. Unfortunately he did not seem to have brought back anything of value, and probably thought himself lucky if he came across a few fags.

Edwin

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.The German Officer Concerned had Surrendered and had presented His Field Glasses to said NCO who accepted them,then promptly Shot the German Officer.Also many instances are recorded were Men were detailed to escort POWS to the Rear but Murdered them in Transit and Looted their personal Possessions.Nothing really New,as i would have thought these Actions have been going on Since the Dawn of Warfare itself.

Not knew I agree. "Going on since the dawn of warfare". I agree again. As someome earlier pointed out "there are good uns and bad uns". But is it right or can we accept the example you give of the officer surrendering and then being shot "in cold blood" as in some way justifiable ? When you say "I would have thought these actions had been going on since the dawn of warfare" it sounds as if you could have finished the sentence by saying "so it must be OK"

Surely not PBI.

Harry

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I certainly remember my Grandfather (RE) telling us that it was the practice, on coming across a dead body - German or Allied - to search the pockets and then turn the pockets inside out, so that other chaps following would not waste their time searching. Unfortunately he did not seem to have brought back anything of value, and probably thought himself lucky if he came across a few fags.

Edwin

I'm sure it was Edwin.

A question though: how would you have felt had he brought back a few souveniers and admitted to you that he had killed a helpless, injured German soldier in cold blood to get them ? I ask this question simply to focus on what the thread is now about

Harry

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Not knew I agree. "Going on since the dawn of warfare". I agree again. As someome earlier pointed out "there are good uns and bad uns". But is it right or can we accept the example you give of the officer surrendering and then being shot "in cold blood" as in some way justifiable ? When you say "I would have thought these actions had been going on since the dawn of warfare" it sounds as if you could have finished the sentence by saying "so it must be OK"

Surely not PBI.

Harry

Maybe the NCO just enjoyed killing for the Sake of it ?,quite a Few Blokes went Trigger Happy in Both World Wars Harry,and i am sure that a Number would have had no compunction whatsoever in Killing for the Sake of it,i suppose the Sights and Scenes they witnessed rendered them totally outside the Sphere of what we would call Normality..indeed they were living in a Highly Abnormal Situation altogether.In Terry Normans Excellent Book "The Hell They Called High Wood" a Wounded British Officer Mentions watching a German Officer CALMLY and deliberately Killing Wounded British Soldiers with a Pistol,the British Officer was about to be taken care of in this way,but managed to Shoot and Kill the German Officer.War is War Harry and at the End of the Day a Soldiers Job is to Kill The Enemy,some just go about it using Different Methods to accomplish this end.I think some on the Forum try to romanticise the Great War,and tend to gloss over the Fact that bestial Acts were carried out...by men on All Sides.

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Just made a long post, and it flew into a black hole in cyber-space. If energy returns, I will try again.

Bob

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QUOTE (Phil_B @ Dec 5 2007, 11:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This is an interesting photo with no caption. I think it`s a medic or stretcher bearer taking a wrist watch off a dead Scottish soldier. One hopes it`s for return to his next of kin.

Phil what makes you think he is a stretcher bearer or RAMC...the armband appears to be 2 seperate colours and not even a hint of a red cross or SB.

Mick

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The Duke of Wellington did not object to his men looting the corpses of the French dead and wounded after a battle, but if a man was caught looting in a captured town, he would likely find himself on the end of a rope sharpish. There is much anecdotal evidence about German soldiers relieving captured Tommies of their fags, bully beef, leather jerkins and other commodities highly prized by Fritz. I haven't read anything about a Tommy being shot out of hand for his possessions but no doubt it happened. In WWII, the woollen jumpers and socks worn by RAF bomber crews were much sought-after items by German civillians and often the corpses of dead crewmen were stripped before the military authorities could reach the crash site. Martin Middlebrook documents this in one of his books on the subject.

As for the stretcher bearer in the photograph, is it possible that the man is a conscientious objector serving in that capacity?

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Maybe the NCO just enjoyed killing for the Sake of it. I think some on the Forum try to romanticise the Great War,and tend to gloss over the Fact that bestial Acts were carried out...by men on All Sides.

Maybe he did PBI. I don't doubt for a moment that these people existed. However, I would like to think that they were in the minority, that most of the lads who served on The Western Front retained their humanity. You might say that that I'm being naive to think and say that but there are enough examples in the literature of The Great war to suggest that that was indeed the case.

As an ex soldier with 26 years service I have met enough 'bad uns' to know that they exist and no doubt existed during the Great War. I am also aware that there is a tendency, especially when one first becomes interested in WW1, to "romaticise" and perhaps turn a blind eye to the atrocities that were committed by soldiers on both sides.

But surely PBI an attitude that can say that "war is war ...and at the end of the day a soldiers job is to kill the enemy, some just go about it using different methods to accomplish this end" is equally naive ? Your words appear to condone the harsh atavistic brutality of those who , for whatever reason, indulged themselves in this way.

Harry

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Phil what makes you think he is a stretcher bearer or RAMC...the armband appears to be 2 seperate colours and not even a hint of a red cross or SB.

Mick

I didn`t recognize the armband and guessed at SB or medic.

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