ANNIE, WHITE OAK, OSIRIS II, THALIA, BLENHEIM, AMBITIOUS, LORAINE

[sadsac]

ARABIS / John, more on ENDYMION ;

BARNISH Geoffrey H N/E Lt. RN 80E092

Endymion Captain Vyvyan 04.03.16 N/E

Eastern Mediterranean 16.01.16 - 22.01.16 Considered for Award or Decoration

Was in charge of the covering party on this occasion.

STAVELEY Cecil M CMG Captain RN 80E110

Endymion C-in-C British Salonika Force 21.07.17 G(M)

Salonika October 1916 - March 1917 Mentioned in Despatches

Despatch of 29.03.17, for distinguished service during the past six months.

STAVELEY Cecil M N/E Captain RN 80E121

Endymion C-in-C British Salonika Force Despatch 25.10.17 28.11.17 G(M)

Salonika March to October 1917 Mentioned in Despatches

For gallant conduct and distinguished services rendered during the past six months.

Sadsac

[sadsac]

ARABIS / John, more on ENDYMION, trust NOT `Ad Nauseum' ;

USHER William A N/E Lt.Cdr. RN 80E121

Endymion C-in-C British Salonika Force Despatch 25.10.17 28.11.17 G(M)

Salonika March to October 1917 Mentioned in Despatches

For gallant conduct and distinguished services rendered during the past six months.

RENDLE William B N/E Boatswain RN 80E123

Endymion C-in-C British Salonika Force Despatch 25.10.17 28.11.17 G(M)

Salonika March to October 1917 Mentioned in Despatches

For gallant conduct and distinguished services rendered during the past six months.

COPE Lidbrooke Frank N/E Lt.Cdr. Surgeon RN 88X794

Danube Naval Brigade Station & H.M.S Endymion

Admiral Commanding Danube 17.10.19 N/E Post War - Danube - Belgrade OBE(M)

An officer of boundless energy & resource while at Belgrade during the winter months 1918 - 1919, he took in hand, on his own initiative, and organised the disinfection of prisoners, refugees and the local military forces, and was undoubtely the means, with his American Colleague. of saving Belgrade from the epidemic of Typhus which was raging in all the neighbouring towns.

In the dash to Budapest, on the outbreak of the Bolshevik Revolution in that city, he acted as Liaison Officer in the Monitor "Ems", and behaved with much coolness and common sense. During the prolonged stay of the Flotilla at Baja on the Danube, he extemporised a very efficient floating hospital, and his resource, coupled with his skill with languages made him of the greatest assistance.

`Thats all folks' !!!

KOKO Sadsac

[muggle]

Firstly thanks again Sadsac for your previous post information.

My latest search has taken me into the NAVY LIST 1915, and has (as expected) raised a few more questions:

(1) Is SA = 2nd Hand?

(2) Or SA= South African (Division)?

(3) As grandfather was rated (...on the Service Record) SA is there a listing somewhere for that ratings?

There are three John Watt's mentioned as temporary Skippers on the NAVY LIST 1915:

(1) 9 SEP 1914 (...going on known information, unlikely to have been grandfather)?

(2) 28 DEC 1914 (best fits grandfathers known information)?

(3) 31 JUL 1915 (definitely not, as grandfather can be placed in Algiers 16:6:1915)?

Does anyone know when the drifter ANNIE (& others) left for the Mediterranean, even confirmation of the year (Requisitiond 1.15 - 12.17) would help?

John.

[ARABIS]

Hello John,

In this case, SA = 2nd Hand.

Regards,

ARABIS.

[muggle]

Thanks ARABIS,

Considering they were supposed to be classed as officers, I see little listed for them in the Navy List 1915!

Regards,

John.

[muggle]

Can anyone find anything on Skipper Frederick Dale RNR?

Regards,

John.

[ARABIS]

John,

Second Hands were ratings, not officers. The Navy Lists contains the names of commissioned & warrant officers only.

Chief Skippers & Skippers R.N.R. were warrant officers. At this time in the navy, warrant officers were not senior n.c.o.s as in the army, but officers.

I am ready to be corrected on the following from my limited experience researching WW1 R.N.R. Trawler Section medals, but here goes:-

If a man came in as a Skipper then his medals would be stamped for example like this, W.S.A. 123. F. BLOGGS. SKR. R.N.R. If a man came in as a Second Hand & later became a Skipper, then for example, his 1914/15 Star would be stamped SA 123. F. BLOGGS 2ND. HD. R.N.R., but his British War Medal & Victory Medal would be stamped 123 SA. F. BLOGGS. SKR. R.N.R., so even though promoted to officer [warrant] status he kept his earlier number.

I have found the following from the Dec. 1918 Navy List:-

Dale Frederick W. [sA 1072] Skr. Tempy. 13 Aug. 15., & in the list of Temporary Skippers R.N.R., Frederick William Dale, Seniority 29 Aug. 1915. I presume it is the same man although the dates are slightly different. If I am correct in my theory as above then he was a Second Hand before becoming a Skipper. To support my theory, next below him in the list is Harry Dale [W.S.A. 336].

Regards,

ARABIS.

[muggle]

Appreciated information ARABIS,

I’d previously found some references to RNR 2nd hands saying they originated from rating holders with Board of Trade mates certificates & that is why sometimes second hand is written on BOT crew lists in the place of Mate?

Other references have stated 2nd hands were actually ratings issued for temporary RNR skippers?

So it would be a 'nice to know' if there were other BOT drifter skippers rated 2nd hand or if grandfather was really quite unique?

Many thanks,

John.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

You might find this site of interest.

http://www.barnettresearch.freeserve.co.uk/

As far as I know the RNR dropped their number rotation in WWI, but not their rank structure. Therefore a Second Hand and a Skipper are 2 separate ranks and a Temporary Skipper is not the same as a Second Hand, he is senior to - for the duration.

The facts support your theory Arabis Dale Frederick W. [sA 1072] will have a card in BT 377/7 at Kew (originals at FAA Museum) under that number. To prevent confusion during the war he wasn't renumbered inline with changes in rank or end of his 5 years enrollment.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

SA is not his rating, it is the prefix code for his service number. He was a Second Hand holding temporary rank as a Skipper (just as in the army you could be a Lieutenant, temporary rank of Major) in the RNR. There were other Second Hands and even Deck hands who held such temporary rank - for the duration. His BOT mates service record would be separate to his RNR record, also kept by the BOT.

[muggle]

So 'per ardua per mare per terram' to clarify...

... grandfather John Watt RNR SA1051 was rated Second Hand, but he may have held the temporary rank as a Skipper (he also appears never to have held a BOT Mates certificate, only a Skippers one)?

(If this was the case, would he not have been listed in the Navy Lists under temporary Skipper?)

Regards,

John.

[muggle]

I believe the Board of Trade managed the RNR on behalf of the RN/Admiralty?

It therefore makes absolute sense (apart from unknown factors...) that the BOT would reflect the ratings of their own certification i.e. a BOT Skipper would normally have become a RNR temporary Skipper, a BOT Mate would normally have become a RNR 2nd Hand etc...

...RNR promotions would of course have been the next step up (or perhaps even some greater recognition) e.g. RNR 2nd Hand (Mate) up to RNR temporary Skipper, RNR temporary Skipper up to RNR Skipper etc...

...(in my opinion) any other way would have given very little credibility to the Board of Trade, but if this was not the case can anyone produce some actual examples?

John.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

It was possible for a Second Hand to be a Temporary Skipper, as appears to be the case with Frederick Dale.

With regards to John Watt RNR SA1051, what does it say on his service record cards? At Kew these are filed in service number order in BT 377/7; the originals are held at the Fleet Air Arm Museum which produce clearer copies. These cards will record his promotions and if he became a skipper it will be written on those cards. He would also be on the officers' medal roll (there would be a cross reference from the ratings medal roll) as well as in the Navy List. If no promotion is shown, if he is not in the Navy List by the end of the war then it is unlikely that he received the promotion.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

The RNR were Naval Reserves, their promotions and deployment were in accordance with naval training and assessments, this is mentioned on the RNR service cards. Temporary ranks were used in war time so as not to alter the perminant structures; in my previous post I stressed this was often only for the 'Duration of the War' after the was men would revert to peace time roles and ranks. RNR officers could also get Naval ranks (Midshipman, Lt etc) as well as BOT based ranks.

The service cards exist so it is best to work through them and see the FACTS they contain rather than speculating what ought to have been the case. If a new card was started, this was cross referenced backwards and forwards showing the other number or rank for referencing to a commissioned officers service record. So in peace time a Second Hand would have a new card when he became a skipper, but that would be referenced on his SA card; in war time they usually kept the card they started the war with even if promoted. BT 377/6 shows Alphabetical indexes to service numbers : S-Z(microfilm copies); that should list all the service numbers he had during his RNR career as a double check.

Edited 15 November , 2007 by per ardua per mare per terram

[per ardua per mare per terram]

RN, RNR and RNVR Official Numbers were all unique so if you have 3 entries for John Watts with service numbers, all of those should be different but if they don't match then the man has been renumbered or they are not the person you are looking for. What was the number for John Watts with seniority of 28 Dec 1914? Have you looked up the card that matches that number?

If you think there is a mistake on his service cards and want to verify if he became an officer then you need to look in more than one year's Navy List.

[muggle]

Hello again 'per ardua per mare per terram' - In respect of the information & expertise you have already clearly contributed, I felt I should at least attempt (some more questions &) possible explanation of certain aspects of my Grandfathers research...

SERVICE RECORD CARDS:

I do have a (very poor) copy of John Watt SA1051’s Service Record obtained via a researcher from the National Archives – to date this is the only recently obtained document (copy) I possess that actually states Grandfather was even in the RNR.

I have obtained another (much improved) copy of the same documents courtesy of the ‘FLEET AIR ARM’ Museum – who maintain it is all the record they hold relating to grandfather.

Are these documents likely to be from the Service Record Cards you refer to?

If they are, SA1051 remains rated SH throughout, however there are two unexplained sets of numbers opposite the section ‘DEPOT SHIP FROM WHICH DISCHARGED’

(1) 2857 – “Osiris II” 18:12:17

(2) 4409 – “Vivid” 11:3:18

If it’s not the Cards referred to ‘FLEET AIR ARM’ Museum doesn’t appear to be able to help anymore & the National Archives require either a personal visit (not easily done from where I reside & not for some time if planned…) or another researcher as I don’t appear to have any willing contact/contracts with the two I’ve already used.

The original researcher also sent a copy of the ‘CAMPAIGN MEDAL ROLL’ in which SA1051 is also 2 Hd. under Rank or Rating.

The part I’m still trying hard to understand is the initial RNR joining rating given to such Board of Trade Skippers (like Grandfather) during WW1

e.g. "Confirmed in Rating from 11:1:15" stamped next to his BOT Skippers certificate number - I know now a BOT Skippers certificate didn't automatically create a WW1/RNR Skippers rank but have yet to find other BOT fishing drifter skippers initially rated as a RNR Second Hand?

OTHER JOHN WATT(s):

3 entries - I don’t currently have access to their RNR service numbers, they were quoted from the Navy List (which is proving difficult to acquire for other years!)

SECOND HAND:

Dale Frederick W. [sA 1072] Skr. Tempy. 13 Aug. 15.,

Does 13 Aug. 15 mean he enrolled/joined on that date & became SA 1072 or is it his promotion date to becoming Skr. Tempy?

(Either way it doesn't look like Frederick Dale Skippered the “Annie” on the first dates mentioned on Grandfathers/SA1051 Service Record unless he was promoted earlier - does anyone know who the first WW1/RNR Skipper of the "Annie" was?)

John.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

These service record cards have been discussed on various threads on this forum, but I'll recap.

SERVICE RECORD CARDS:

RNR service was entered on cards roughly A3 size, this gave a space constraint for entries and comments can be rather cramped. These cards were copied onto microfiche, which the National Archives (as they are now) kept, they did not want the originals and those went to the Fleet Air Arm. The problem with the microfiche copies is that ship names were written in red, which does not reproduce well. There is also a problem of poor printers at Kew, hence your poor copies.

The peace time standard was for 5 year enrollments and a new card was opened for each and the service number also changed with each enrollment. These were all cross referenced on the cards, so if other cards exist it should have been easy for the FAA museum to spot. As I previously posted there was also an index to service numbers.

The ‘CAMPAIGN MEDAL ROLL’ should give you many (if not all) of the other John Watts' who served as ratings. If the researcher had copied the officer's roll too, you would have all the options.

JOHN WATT (SA1051)

Date, town & county of Birth, home address, plus names of mother and father are on these cards so you can easily verify the man is a match for your grandfather.

"Confirmed in Rating from ..." is a standard stamp and confirms the rating as given. You, or someone working for you, would have to go through several cards to establish whether drifter skippers were routinely initially rated as Second Hands, that would take considerable time if you are going to match other known drifter skippers.

Navy List

OTHER JOHN WATT(s): Their entries in the Navy List should include service numbers. [My mistake, I was projecting back from having seen them in later editions]

The Navy List is also where you will find the names of the skippers of Annie.

DALE Frederick W. [sA 1072] 13 Aug. 15: is probibly the date of his seniority/ promotion. It depends where the entry is; in the alphabetical index it is date of seniority in rank, but in the entry for a ship it is the date that he was appointed to that position on the ship. As he was a promoted SH, it would be interesting to see what certificate he held.

On the evidence that you have presented: SA1501 was you grandfather or an amazing coincidence if all the verifying data matches. If you still harbour doubts then to work through all the John Watts and verify details for Second Hands and whether they included certificated drifter skippers will take considerable time. Are you willing to make the commitment?

Per Mare

Edited 23 November , 2007 by per ardua per mare per terram

[per ardua per mare per terram]

According to the Navy List for July & Oct 1915: James Gatt was the first RNR Skipper of the Annie with effect from 11 Jan 1915.

Edited 28 November , 2007 by per ardua per mare per terram

[sadsac]

John / ARABIS / Per Mare - RE WSA ; Just as a `thought',

I seem to think W S A could = War Service Authority - this because it is Not a RANK but Authority to partake in War (Situation) some of them not being in `Uniform'. Their RANK was SKIPPER or Temp SK etc. So WSA 123 = War Sevice Authority (Admiralty ?) 123rd entry.

`Worth a Sniff' ???

Sadsac

[per ardua per mare per terram]

WSA has nothing to do with rank at all, neither has SA, both were merely the suffixes for a service number! So WSA 123 is Skipper 123 of the RNR (Trawler Section); Skippers of the Trawler Reserve Emergancy Section were prefixed WSE. So they could be both a Skipper WSA 123 and WSE 123 at the same time.

[sadsac]

John / ARABIS / Per Mare ; further to last post mine ;

WSA WARRANT S A ?? - again this is an AUTHORITY + number as in Lt. RN - NOT a RANK.

Skipper / Second Hand is RANK !!

As a thought, had Capt Fryatt (see other posting on Forum) had an WSA number he could not have been shot, or at least by German `Military Authority'. He would have been designated `Militair'.

`Gather & Surmize' chaps !!

Sadsac

[ARABIS]

I might be responsible for the confusion here. In post 53 John asked, SA = 2nd Hand? or SA = South African Division? In post 54 I replied, in this case SA = 2nd Hand, meaning for his purposes it was relevant to 2nd Hands & not South Africa. Second Hand is the rating, not SA which is the prefix for a service number. However, as it was used before the service no.s of Second Hands is it not a good indication that the person was a Second Hand or possibly a Skipper who had been promoted from a Second Hand as I was trying to clarify in post 57? Below Second Hands were Deck Hands with the prefix DA. Does anyone know if there were Second Hands or even Skippers promoted from Deck Hands who kept their DA prefix, or would they have been given a SA prefix on reaching Second Hand?

Regards,

ARABIS.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Yes, Skipper and Second Hand are RANKs, but WSA and SA were merely the suffixes chosen for their service numbers. RNR seamen started off with an 'A' sufffix, for stokers is was an 'S' suffix. What's more these were only the suffix for the first enrollment! In a normal progression a Skipper in his second enrollment could have been WSB 345 having been WSA 123 in his first.

Does anyone know if there were Second Hands or even Skippers promoted from Deck Hands who kept their DA prefix, or would they have been given a SA prefix on reaching Second Hand? Yes and there has been a case discussed on the forum: Frank Baxter who began the war as a Deck Hand with a 'DA' suffix, but ended as a temporary skipper, but still with his DA number.

From what I have seen there was a freeze on changing RNR numbers during the war, men kept the number they started with, unless they altered the branch they were in. So I have seen a man in the RNR (used for RND) going into the RNVR and then into the RN and changing numbers each time.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Part of the confusion comes from the fact that there were actually 3 separate sections of the RNR in WW1, which operated separately.

There was the Ordinary Section, which provided reserves for seamen, stokers, Engine Room Artificers and Wireless Operators.

The Trawler Section operated the Auxiliary Patrol and minesweepers these would not necessarily serve the boats they knew, they would be allocated as required.

The Trawler Reserve Emergency Section was the actual fishing trawler reserve where men signed up and were able to use the boats that they joined with.

[muggle]

Can anyone explain the M.R. in e.g. M.R. Osiris & M.R. Crescent, reference taken from RNR Service Record?

John.