ANNIE, WHITE OAK, OSIRIS II, THALIA, BLENHEIM, AMBITIOUS, LORAINE

[Guest janegrant]

Hi. I found this posting after Googling my great-grandfather, Joseph Watt, VC. If anyone has any info on him, it would be greatly appreciated!

[muggle]

Hi. I found this posting after Googling my great-grandfather, Joseph Watt, VC. If anyone has any info on him, it would be greatly appreciated!

I don't really think I'm the best one to reply to your query, but what type of information (that's not already online) are you looking for on your great-grandfather?

Regards,

John.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

John, referring to your post 25

This is hearsay from someone else's research: Naval officers would be surprised that the trawler men even had a chart!

More seriously it sounds like a case of wishful thinking.

[sadsac]

John, yet another THALIA ;

ORMES George L N/E Skipper RNR 84S064 Thalia & Glatian

C-in-C Coast Scotland - S.N.O. Cromarty - Captain A.P. Cromarty 06.04.18 G

Auxiliary Patrols 01.01.17 - 31.01.17 DSC

Devoted service in this area for nearly three years.

He has always carried out his duties with exceptional ability and zeal.

KOKO Sadsac DAF

[muggle]

John, referring to your post 25

This is hearsay from someone else's research: Naval officers would be surprised that the trawler men even had a chart!

More seriously it sounds like a case of wishful thinking.

Hello per ardua per mare per terram,

I thought the following information would be of interest, in view of your opinion of the contents of post 25:

The information in the quote comes from two sources. First, Keble Chatterton, who I have also found thoroughly well-informed and reliable, states:

"Shortly before leaving Constantinople there had been put into the German Admiral's hands a chart with vague pencillings purporting to indicate the dangerous British mine-fields' limitations lying off the Dardanelles entrance. This document had been captured from a British trawler which, during the previous month, unfortunately ran ashore in the Gulf of Saros. It seems to have been regarded by the enemy with undue importance; for many of us during the war scribbled roughly-defined areas on the chart used when patrolling, but kept more exact information either among confidential papers or in one's head." [seas of Adventure, (London, 1936), p. 287.]

('Seas of Adventure' information courtesy of SUPERIOR FORCE's Geoffrey Miller & confirmed by the Great War Forum's kin47).

The story is confirmed by the English translation of "Der Krieg zur See"(volume I, chapter 28), which I consulted, more years ago than I care to remember, at the Naval Defence Library. I have no reason to doubt the veracity of the story.

(Also courtesy of SUPERIOR FORCE's Geoffrey Miller).

Note: Edward Keble Chatterton (From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

At the outbreak of the First World War, Chatterton joined the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve (R.N.V.R.), ultimately commanding a Motor Launch flotilla at Queenstown, now Cobh, in Ireland. He describes these years in Q-Ships and their Story (1922), The Auxiliary Patrol (1924) and Danger Zone: The Story of the Queenstown Command (1934). He left the service in 1919 with the rank of Lieutenant Commander.

In the inter-war years, his output was continuous, and included a series of monographs on model ships, many narrative histories of naval events, and a number of juvenile novels. Most of his books were republished in the United States and several were translated into French and German editions.

Kind regards,

John.

[muggle]

John, yet another THALIA ;

ORMES George L N/E Skipper RNR 84S064 Thalia & Glatian

C-in-C Coast Scotland - S.N.O. Cromarty - Captain A.P. Cromarty 06.04.18 G

Auxiliary Patrols 01.01.17 - 31.01.17 DSC

Devoted service in this area for nearly three years.

He has always carried out his duties with exceptional ability and zeal.

KOKO Sadsac DAF

Hi again Sadac,

THALIA - during my search I've found reference to the following:

Thalia - HMT very old type (wooden screw) sail ship built 1870.

Thalia - Built 1917 (1308 ton), 1918 requisitioned by the Shipping Controller, London, 8th Oct.1918 torpedoed and sunk by UC.17 off Filey.

Thalia - Motor Boat MU Martinolich requisitioned 11 Apr 1916 Bocche di Cattaro U-boat station.

Know of any further information?

Regards,

John.

Just thought I'd add this recent find from another post by 'Silent Warrior'...

The THALIA was a 1,308-ton steel hulled Dutch merchant steamer that was registered at the port of Amsterdam. She had dimensions measuring: 81.07m by length, an 11.88m-beam and a draught of 4.26-metres. Voorheen Rijkee built her at Rotterdam in 1916 for Koninklijke Stoomboot Maatschappij in Amsterdam. Her single steel propeller was powered by a 3-cylinder triple expansion steam engine that used two 2SB boilers. The cylinder diameters measured: 50.80cm, 78.74cm, & 127.00cm with a 91.44cm stroke, (20in, 31in & 50in with a 36-inch stroke). Werkspoor at Amsterdam manufactured the machinery. She had a cruiser-stern, two-decks and was modern for the day being fitted-out with electric lights. The Shipping Controller, who owned her at the time of loss, requisitioned her during WWI.

Final voyage:

At 0700hrs on 8 October 1918, the THALIA was in ballast, on passage from Rouen for the Tyne when SM UC 17, a Kaiserliche Deutsche Marine U-boat torpedoed her. The enemy submarine was submerged and never seen by any of the steamer’s crew. SS THALIA was in convoy when the torpedo detonated amidships on the port side; killing the Second Engineer and a donkeyman and leaving one fireman badly scalded. The ship went down in fifteen minutes, taking the confidential papers and War-time Code books with her, but not before the surviving crew of twenty-four managed to lower the starboard boat and get clear of the ship. One of the escorting patrol vessels picked up the men and landed at Scarborough.

Wreck location: 3.26-nautical miles ESE from Filey Brigg

[Lavatera]

Does any one on the Great War Forum know how to go about obtaining more details on the lost of the ANNIE?

Hired drifter Annie, completed 1907, 94 tons gross, 1-3pdr gun. Admiralty no 2118, Port no FR.420 [Fraserburgh]. Service Jan. 1915 - 19/12/17. Destroyed after grounding off Enos].

Courtesy of ARABIS

I would also be very interested to know if Joseph Watt VC actually part owned this vessel prior to WW1 or if such source of that information actually reads J. Watt?

I reccomend two books which will cover most steam drifters from the North- East of Scotland many of which were enrolled in WW1."Steam Drifters Recalled" by John Reid, published 2001.Your 'ANNIE' is indexed there, no picture.It was originally registered in Peterhead No. PD202.It was sold 1911to a George Walker,Fraserburgh; Robert Stephen,Inverallochy & re-registered in Fraserburgh( FR420 )Requisitioned for war service 1915-1917 as an anti-submarinenet vessel fitted with a 3pdr. gun.The Buckie or Anstruther Fishery Museums might be able to assist in locating the books.One other fact in relation to ownership.It was built in Dundee for J.S.Summers, Peterhead & others.

[Lavatera]

Hi. I found this posting after Googling my great-grandfather, Joseph Watt, VC. If anyone has any info on him, it would be greatly appreciated!

Afternoon mjg, Should you require information about the "GOWANLEA" it can be found in "Steam Drifters Recalled" by John Reid, published 2001.( no photograph) includes details of medals earned.......Regards, Bill.

[joseph]

John,

“This is hearsay from someone else's research: Naval officers would be surprised that the trawler men even had a chart!”

Most Naval Officers could not match the skill of ship handling and navigation of the Trawler Skipper, this is why they got such high acclaim. Not many Trawlers would go to sea under the command of a Naval Officer, they tended to be in charge of a ½ Division or Division mostly for the technical aspects of, communication, gunnery, tactics and planning.

All ships in a war zone would be in possession of a 'CB' which included all relevant material in respect of shipping lanes and minefields, its a good read if you get one. They never got hold of this book which had a lead weight in the binding and must have seen the ready use chart on the bridge with the skippers thoughts and jottings on.

I do like reading Chatterton his writing makes a good read and as far as I can see he gives more contemporary information than the so called 'source material' which did tend to leave out anything their superiors would not like, that works for both ships logs and KTB's. The ships logs of Auxiliary Vessels are not normally available so difficult to ascertain the facts. Trawler Skippers wouldn't mince there words Roger Keyes does mention that on more than one occasion.

Hearsay as a point of history is normal, the actual aspects of history can be determined on opinion! as per the person present or years later by the person who thinks the source material is good and does not take into account other sources, or disregards them?

Me; I have heard story's of Trawler Skippers Navigating from the East Coast of England to the Dardenelles with the use of a page out of the bible and asking the way. Also finding fish in the seas out of the sight of land, now with no chart, that's good.

Regards Charles

[muggle]

John,

“This is hearsay from someone else's research: Naval officers would be surprised that the trawler men even had a chart!”

Most Naval Officers could not match the skill of ship handling and navigation of the Trawler Skipper, this is why they got such high acclaim. Not many Trawlers would go to sea under the command of a Naval Officer, they tended to be in charge of a ½ Division or Division mostly for the technical aspects of, communication, gunnery, tactics and planning.

All ships in a war zone would be in possession of a 'CB' which included all relevant material in respect of shipping lanes and minefields, its a good read if you get one. They never got hold of this book which had a lead weight in the binding and must have seen the ready use chart on the bridge with the skippers thoughts and jottings on.

I do like reading Chatterton his writing makes a good read and as far as I can see he gives more contemporary information than the so called 'source material' which did tend to leave out anything their superiors would not like, that works for both ships logs and KTB's. The ships logs of Auxiliary Vessels are not normally available so difficult to ascertain the facts. Trawler Skippers wouldn't mince there words Roger Keyes does mention that on more than one occasion.

Hearsay as a point of history is normal, the actual aspects of history can be determined on opinion! as per the person present or years later by the person who thinks the source material is good and does not take into account other sources, or disregards them?

Me; I have heard story's of Trawler Skippers Navigating from the East Coast of England to the Dardenelles with the use of a page out of the bible and asking the way. Also finding fish in the seas out of the sight of land, now with no chart, that's good.

Regards Charles

(Charles many thanks) Joseph - there were many but you've certainly described it as my grandfather.

Take care,

John.

[sadsac]

Hello John `Et Al', re THALIA - nothing more on those `old' ships I am afraid, however, here's more on GOWANLEA & Skipper Watt ;

WATT Joseph 1206WSA Skipper RNR 80F006

H.M. Drifter Gowan Lea

Vice Admiral Commanding Adriatic Sqdn 29.08.17 G

Otranto Straits Action Adriatic Drifters attack by Austrian Cruiser 15.05.17

VC & promoted to Chief Skipper 15.05.17

For greatest gallantry and example.

He replied to Austrian Cruisers demand to surrender by calling for three cheers from his crew, attacking the enemy, and subsequently saving his ship when all means of offence were destroyed by the enemy.

Sadsac

[muggle]

I've just added the following to post 25, as I consider that the most appropiate one in relationship.

102659615_1_.pdf

Regards,

John.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

For hearsay read heresy and read it with tounge in cheek. it was written too quickly to make sence.

There are centries worth of friction between the Merchant and Royal Navies, especially when the latter tried to lord it over the former. In WWI there was tension between the Navy and the Trawler Reserve and as the naval officers got to write the reports to the Admiralty, their views are recorded. I haven't read the reports myself but some of the comments sounded like men who had decades of experience and navigational knowledge reacting to someone with no idea of the hazards they faced, the skills they had or abilities.

[muggle]

For hearsay read heresy and read it with tounge in cheek. it was written too quickly to make sence.

There are centries worth of friction between the Merchant and Royal Navies, especially when the latter tried to lord it over the former. In WWI there was tension between the Navy and the Trawler Reserve and as the naval officers got to write the reports to the Admiralty, their views are recorded. I haven't read the reports myself but some of the comments sounded like men who had decades of experience and navigational knowledge reacting to someone with no idea of the hazards they faced, the skills they had or abilities.

It appears ‘Hearsay’ (second-hand) information can’t do much for ones research but ‘Heresy’ (with its religion foundation) could allow belief of ones own choosing...

...so with that all in mind is one best to concentrate on (what most would call) “FACTS”?

[historydavid]

John, this is an extract from David Hepper's "British Warship Losses in the Ironclad Era 1860-1919."

19 December 1917 ANNIE (Admiralty drifter no.2118) drifter Hired 1915; 94 tons; 86ft x i8y2ft; 1 x 3pdr Skipper Frederick Dale RNR

Former Fraserburgh drifter employed as a net barrier tender and deployed to the Aegean. On the night of 19 December she was sent inshore near Enos (modern Edez) to land agents, but found herself grounding in shallow water. Every effort was made to free her, without success. At 5 am the following morning with a freshening breeze from the northeast she was abandoned, the books having been burnt and much equipment thrown overboard. The crew arrived by boat at Samothraki later that day and a tug was sent to the area, and found the stranded drifter in position 40.42N 26.03E, but could do little as they came under fire from the shore. The cruiser Endymion and destroyer Kibble were then sent to the scene, and despite coming under fire from several field guns that had been brought up to the area, successfully shelled the drifter to a wreck.

[TNA: PRO ADM.137/400]

Best wishes

David

[muggle]

John, this is an extract from David Hepper's "British Warship Losses in the Ironclad Era 1860-1919."

19 December 1917 ANNIE (Admiralty drifter no.2118) drifter Hired 1915; 94 tons; 86ft x i8y2ft; 1 x 3pdr Skipper Frederick Dale RNR

Former Fraserburgh drifter employed as a net barrier tender and deployed to the Aegean. On the night of 19 December she was sent inshore near Enos (modern Edez) to land agents, but found herself grounding in shallow water. Every effort was made to free her, without success. At 5 am the following morning with a freshening breeze from the northeast she was abandoned, the books having been burnt and much equipment thrown overboard. The crew arrived by boat at Samothraki later that day and a tug was sent to the area, and found the stranded drifter in position 40.42N 26.03E, but could do little as they came under fire from the shore. The cruiser Endymion and destroyer Kibble were then sent to the scene, and despite coming under fire from several field guns that had been brought up to the area, successfully shelled the drifter to a wreck.

[TNA: PRO ADM.137/400]

Best wishes

David

Hi David,

Excellent one of the best pieces of information to date, but its a pity it didn't list the vessel's crew.

However if reading Grandfathers RNR Service Record correctly, the Osiris II was the Depot or Base vessel for the Annie?

His Service Record also has the following entries “Osiris II” (Annie) under Despatch Port & “Vivid B from XX X Annie” under arrival destination dated 18.12.17, so it looks like he wasn’t onboard the Annie during that final voyage?

Many thanks (& greatly appreciated),

John.

[muggle]

Does any friend know: "Did the crews of Depot or Base ships receive Naval Prize Money"?

Regards,

John.

[muggle]

I now have documentation confirming a JOSEPH WATT (not J.WATT or JOHN WATT) is on the ANNIE's crew list 1914.

John.

[muggle]

The most appropriate question at this stage would appear to be: -

Any one with information on 'Cruiser Endymion and Destroyer Kibble'?

John.

Some info found: -

HMS Endymion was a first class cruiser of the Edgar class. She was launched on July 22, 1891. She took part in suppressing the Boxer Rebellion in China, during which time future rear admiral and VC recipient Eric Gascoigne Robinson served aboard her. She served in the First World War in the Gallipoli Campaign, and was sold for breaking up at Cardiff on March 16, 1920.

Destroyer Kibble still not found?

At last some mention:

Admiral John de Robeck's Despatch on the Gallipoli landings

The Despatch of Vice-Admiral John de Robeck, commanding the fleet operations at Gallipoli. Printed in the Second Supplement to the London Gazette of 13 August 1915. The Despatch dealt with the landings and early operations on Gallipoli.

To the Secretary of of the Admiralty.

" HMS Triad," July 1, 1915.

Sir,—I have the honour to forward herewith an account of the operations carried out on the 25th and 26th April, 1915, during which period the Mediterranean Expeditionary Force was landed and firmly established in the Gallipoli peninsula.

The landing commenced at 4.20 a.m. on 25th. The general scheme was as follows: — Two main landings were to take place, the first at a.point just north of Gaba Tepe, the second on the southern end of the peninsula. In addition, a landing was to be made at Kum Kale, and a demonstration in force to be carried out in the Gulf of Xeros near Bulair. The night of the 24th-25th was calm and very clear, with a brilliant moon, which set at 3 a.m.

The first landing, north of Gaba Tepe, was carried out under the orders of Rear-Admiral C. P. Thursby, C.M.G. His squadron consisted of the following ships:

Battleships:

Queen.

London.

Prince of Wales.

Triumph.

Majestic.

Destroyers:

Beagle.

Bulldog.

Foxhound.

Scourge.

Colne.

Usk.

Chelmer.

Kibble.

Seaplane Carrier:

Ark Royal.

Balloon Ship:

Manica.

Trawlers:

15

Someone must have some history on the Kibble?

[muggle]

Some information on the HMS AGINCOURT (taken from a post card that my grandfather maintains they still have 13 hundred miles to go to their destination from the Rock of Gibraltar):

HMS AGINCOURT.

This fine ship, launched in September 1913, was built by Armstrongs of Elswick for Brazil, and was to have been called the RIO DE JANEIRO. It was, however , acquired by the Turkish Government in December and named the SULTAN OSMAN I. It is heavily armed, having no less than 14; 12-in. Guns and 20; 6-in. Horse Power, 32000; speed, 22 1/2 knots. On the outbreak of war in August 1914 the Lords of the Admiralty exercised their right to take over warships being built in the United Kingdom for foreign governments, and this vessel was renamed the AGINCOURT.

[ARABIS]

John,

There is no Kibble, it is the 1904 River class destroyer Ribble, sister to Colne, Usk & Chelmer etc. Ribble was awarded the Battle Honour Dardanelles 1915-16 & was commanded by Lt. Cdr. R. W. Wilkinson. Quite a few mentions about her at the Gallipoli landings in "Endless Story" by Taffrail.

Regards,

ARABIS.

[muggle]

Thanks again ARABIS, I'm sure you'll help me get there.

Kind regards,

John.

[sadsac]

John / ARABIS, some `gongs' / info for RIBBLE in Med / Gallipoli ;

HENDERSON Oscar N/E Lt. RN 80E033 Ribble

Vice Admiral Commanding Eastern Mediterranean Squadron

16.08.15 G

Landing at Gallipoli Peninsula 25-26.04.15

Commended for service in action Took part in the landing at Morto Bay, and with commendable initiative pushed on in support of the Marines, after he had assisted in the disembarkation.

MALLETT Alfred M N/E Gunner RN 80E034 Ribble

Vice Admiral Commanding Eastern Mediterranean Squadron

16.08.15 G

Landing at Gallipoli Peninsula 25-26.04.15

Commended for service in action Did good work in connection with the re-embarkation of troops from "Y" beach on the morning of the 26th April, 1915.

WILKINSON R.W N/E Lt.Cdr. RN 80E036 Ribble

Vice Admiral Commanding Eastern Mediterranean Squadron

16.08.15 G

Landing at Gallipoli Peninsula 25-26.04.15 Mentioned in Despatches

Assisted in the disembarkation at Gaba Tepe.

KOKO Sadsac

[sadsac]

John / ARABIS, yet more on RIBBLE ;

KEELEY Harold p N/E Lt. RN 80G015 Ribble

British C-in-C. Mediterranean 19.05.18 G

In Mediterranean period ending 31.12.17 DSC

Was in command of "Ribble" when "Sakari" (Japanese T.B.D) was torpedoed and successfully salved and towed into Suda Bay on 11-12th June, 1917. Was also in command of Ribble whilst detroying drifter off Enos under heavy enemy shell fire on 23rd and 27th December, 1917.

ELLIOT William A N/E S/Lt. RN 80G017 Ribble

British C-in-C. Mediterranean 19.05.18 G

In Mediterranean period ending 31.12.17 Mentioned in Despatches

Sent to "Sakaki" (Japanese T.B.D) when she was torpedoed 11.06.17, in charge of "Ribble's" boats for wounded. Also remained in Sakaki and supervised her being taken in tow.

Carried out these duties in a most satisfacory manner.

MACOUSTRA James N/E Art. Eng. RN 80G017 Ribble

British C-in-C. Mediterranean 19.05.18 G

In Mediterranean period ending 31.12.17 Mentioned in Despatches

Due to his efforts and organisation "Ribble" was able to steam 23 miles in 53 minutes to the assistance of "Sakaki" from the time S.O.S. was received.

Regards Sadsac

[sadsac]

ARABIS / John, some `gongs' / info re ENDYMION ;

VYVYAN Arthur Vyell N/E Captain RN 80E041

Endymion Vice Admiral Commanding Eastern Mediterranean Squadron

14.03.16 G

Landing Gallipoli Peninsula April 1915 & Evacuation Dec. 1915 - Jan 1916 DSO

Beachmaster at ANZAC on the 25th April, and subsequently.

Was frequently exposed th heavy shell fire while carrying out his very arduous duties.

VYVYAN Arthur V N/E Captain RN 80E092

Endymion Vice Admiral de Robeck 04.03.16 N/E

Eastern Mediterranean 16.01.16 - 22.01.16 Considered for Award or Decoration

Was Senior Naval Officer off Port Lagos during operations against the Bulgarian Coast on the 16th January, 1916, and displayed sound judgment in seizing a favourable opportunity to land a demolition party and this effectivelt destroy a bridge.

FOWLE Frank G N/E Lt. RN 80E092

Endymion Vice Admiral de Robeck 04.03.16 N/E

Eastern Mediterranean 16.01.16 - 22.01.16 Considered for Award or Decoration

Was landed in command of a demolition party from "Endymion" on the 18th January, 1916, to blow up a bridge near Port Lagos. The enterprise was distinctly of a hazardous nature and the landing party was well handled, the episode reflecting credit on all concerned.

R's Sadsac