ANNIE, WHITE OAK, OSIRIS II, THALIA, BLENHEIM, AMBITIOUS, LORAINE

[muggle]

Hello all,

(I really hope some of you can progress my difficult research some...)

The first mentioned vessel on grandfathers Service Record copy is the HD ANNIE, this vessel also looks like (but its not a very good copy...) it could be mentioned a couple of other times i.e. last mention VIVID & From ?? ANNIE 18/12/17.

The reason I've started with the first mentioned vessel is that it may actually hold the key to the puzzle, as research has turned up the following information:

"Annie" lost December 19th 1917 Mediterranean (Other information puts it down to a sea mine but mentions nothing of crew or casualties)?

The "Annie" has been found on other searches, in which she appears to have part owned by Joseph Watt VC?

My grandfather held a Skipper's Certificate (for Liners & Drifters up to and above 50 Tons, propelled by steam or other mechanical power) dated 4th January 1912 when he did his RNR Service during WW1 (he had also skippered sailing Drifters prior to that, earliest documentation found 1908).

This certificate is mentioned by number on the copy of his recently obtained RNR service record, but his rating of Second Hand (2HD) definitely doesn't reflect this.

Do you or any others know of any reason why a Certified Skipper would have been rated 2HD for his complete RNR WW1 service?

The family history handed down was that grandfather was one of the many fishing boat Skippers to be commandeered by the WW1 Admiralty, but recent MOD & Service Record correspondence does not support the fishing boat that grandfather was supposed to have skippered.

Most of the other vessels mentioned on the Service Record could be Depot ships (& of course the VIVID was an onshore training base...):

White Oak, Osiris II, Thalia, Blenheim, but I've been unable to find out about the mentioned AMBITIOUS with (HD Loraine) under that entry?

I'm sure my father once said that if one owned their own (fishing) vessel RNR training was allowed on that same vessel but that was apparently changed by the time he came to do his RNR service - can anyone confirm that?

Grandfather was awarded the triple medal set believed to be because of his involvement at the Dardanelles.

There are also Prize Money awards mentioned but even by reading other parts of the Great War Forum, I'm unsure how to find any RN list to check on those?

All rather puzzling, any help or guide lines to go on?

Many kind regards,

John.

[Toms girl]

Hi John

If only our grandfathers knew we would be searching for details of their seafearing

records I'm sure they would have made things clearer.

Cant help in this instance but on my GF record he was on the Blenheim 25/11/06 - 21/6/09

which is long before yours it does have in brackets after the name(Locust) but I thing that

is the type of ship.

Good hunting

Margarette

[muggle]

Hi John

If only our grandfathers knew we would be searching for details of their seafearing

records I'm sure they would have made things clearer.

Cant help in this instance but on my GF record he was on the Blenheim 25/11/06 - 21/6/09

which is long before yours it does have in brackets after the name(Locust) but I thing that

is the type of ship.

Good hunting

Margarette

Hi Margarette,

Many thanks for the first reply, however I really should confess to the Service Records mention of the Blenheim i.e. the only mention of the Blenheim on grandfathers Service Record is in the section 'Grounds of Discharge/Termination of Service', so it looks like although it may have been the original 'Grounds of Discharge' from the 'White Oak' on 5/6/15 he is not mentioned as having actually served on the vessel.

Take care,

John.

[spithead]

Hello John, welcome to the forum

A few details on the ships you mention

HMD Annie

Built 1907

94 ton

Armament 1-3pdr

Requisitiond 1.15 - 12.17

Adm. No. 248

Port Reg. FR 420 (Fraserburgh)

Lossed after grounding/mined 19.2.17

HMD White Oak 73 ton built 1913 1-3 pdr hired 1914-19

HMD Loraine 96 ton built 1916 1-3pdr hired 1.4.16

Yt Thalia (ex protector) 185 ton built 1904

HMD Ambitious 81 ton built 1907 1-3pdr hired 1914, base ship 1918-19

Osiris P&O LINE 1,728 ton built 1898

5.8.14 Hired by the admiralty as an Armed Merchant Cruiser

10.10.14 Transfered to service as a submarine depot ship

1916 Renamed OSIRIS 11

1920 Released from admiralty service and laid up at Falmouth. Renamed Osiris.

Depot ships Vivid and Blenhiem.

Regards John

[ARABIS]

Hello John,

White Oak was depot ship for net drifters at Poole, commissioned 26/1/15 & paid off 12/2/19.

Osiris II was a depot ship for trawlers & drifters at Mudros [Aegean]. Originally named Osiris, renamed Osiris II Dec. 1915, replaced by Valhalla Apr. 1918.

Thalia was an Auxiliary Patrol parent ship at Cromarty commissioned 9/3/16 & paid off 31/5/19.

Blenheim was an old cruiser used as a depot ship in the Med. 1914-19 inc. Dardanelles 1914-15.

Ambitious was base ship in the Shetlands commissioned 26/1/18 & paid off 13/12/19.

Hired drifter Loraine, completed 1916, 96 tons gross, 1-3pdr gun. Admiralty nos 2077 & Y5.8, Port no SN.287 [North Shields]. Frozen meat carrier. Service, Apr. 1916 - 1936 [purchased 1918 & sold 1936].

Hired drifter Annie, completed 1907, 94 tons gross, 1-3pdr gun. Admiralty no 2118, Port no FR.420 [Fraserburgh]. Service Jan. 1915 - 19/12/17. Destroyed after grounding off Enos].

Regards,

ARABIS.

[muggle]

Hello John, welcome to the forum

A few details on the ships you mention

HMD Annie

Built 1907

94 ton

Armament 1-3pdr

Requisitiond 1.15 - 12.17

Adm. No. 248

Port Reg. FR 420 (Fraserburgh)

Lossed after grounding/mined 19.2.17

HMD White Oak 73 ton built 1913 1-3 pdr hired 1914-19

HMD Loraine 96 ton built 1916 1-3pdr hired 1.4.16

Yt Thalia (ex protector) 185 ton built 1904

HMD Ambitious 81 ton built 1907 1-3pdr hired 1914, base ship 1918-19

Osiris P&O LINE 1,728 ton built 1898

5.8.14 Hired by the admiralty as an Armed Merchant Cruiser

10.10.14 Transfered to service as a submarine depot ship

1916 Renamed OSIRIS 11

1920 Released from admiralty service and laid up at Falmouth. Renamed Osiris.

Depot ships Vivid and Blenhiem.

Regards John

Hi John,

Excellent information, of course I'd like to be able to obtain even more i.e. say on the ANNIE (& her crew) as the dates tally exactly with grandfather joining the RNR & his Service Record date of 18/12/17 which was the day before the ANNIE was lossed.

The loss of this vessel could well explain why grandfathers RNR Service Record doesn't have him as a skipper & lists lots of Depot ships.

Is there any online information say about the Loraine & the Ambitious?

There was apparently a base ship called the Thalia 1915 - 1920 at Cromarty & Peterhead, could this be the same as the Yt Thalia?

Other information found:

VIVID was the HMS VIVID a shore base training establishment in Plymouth?

White Oak was a drifter employed at Poole as a Depot for armed drifters?

Blenheim sent to Mudros in March 1915 to become a Depot ship for the 'Otranto Barrage' moving to Malta in September 1918?

Osiris II in 1915 became a Depot ship for Trawlers & Drifters?

Ambitious also thought to be the name given to the Naval base at Lerwick in the Shetland Isles?

Anyway John your information is well appreciated, many thanks.

Kind regards.

John.

[muggle]

Hello John,

White Oak was depot ship for net drifters at Poole, commissioned 26/1/15 & paid off 12/2/19.

Osiris II was a depot ship for trawlers & drifters at Mudros [Aegean]. Originally named Osiris, renamed Osiris II Dec. 1915, replaced by Valhalla Apr. 1918.

Thalia was an Auxiliary Patrol parent ship at Cromarty commissioned 9/3/16 & paid off 31/5/19.

Blenheim was an old cruiser used as a depot ship in the Med. 1914-19 inc. Dardanelles 1914-15.

Ambitious was base ship in the Shetlands commissioned 26/1/18 & paid off 13/12/19.

Hired drifter Loraine, completed 1916, 96 tons gross, 1-3pdr gun. Admiralty nos 2077 & Y5.8, Port no SN.287 [North Shields]. Frozen meat carrier. Service, Apr. 1916 - 1936 [purchased 1918 & sold 1936].

Hired drifter Annie, completed 1907, 94 tons gross, 1-3pdr gun. Admiralty no 2118, Port no FR.420 [Fraserburgh]. Service Jan. 1915 - 19/12/17. Destroyed after grounding off Enos].

Regards,

ARABIS.

Many thanks for that ARABIS, your information seems to tally with other material I've obtained - now the big task will be to find more information on the ANNIE & her crew. Any crew list with grandfather on it would be a real achievement!

Kind regards,

John.

[spithead]

Any crew list with grandfather on it would be a real achievement!

John

What was his name

John

[muggle]

John

What was his name

John

Well John,

(Strangely his first name was the same as yours & mine... ) John Watt RNR SA1051

John.

[sadsac]

John - do not know about JOHN Watt, but here is something on JOSEPH Watt, VC ;

WATT Joseph 1206WSA Skipper RNR 80F006

H.M. Drifter Gowan Lea Vice Admiral Commanding Adriatic Sqdn 29.08.17 G

Otranto Straits Action Adriatic Drifters attack by Austrian Cruiser 15.05.17

VC & promoted to Chief Skipper 15.05.17

For greatest gallantry and example. He replied to Austrian Cruisers demand to surrender

by calling for three cheers from his crew, attacking the enemy,

and subsequently saving his ship when all means of offence were destroyed by the enmy.

KOKO Sadsac

[sadsac]

John - more on JOSEPH Watt ;

WATT Joseph VC - WSA1206 Skipper RNR 80F002

H.M. Drifter Floand Commodore Commanding British Adriatic Force

Otranto Straits Action Adriatic Drifters attack by Austrian Cruiser 15.05.17

Promoted Chief Skipper 15.05.17

For meritorious service in the action in the Straits of Otranto on the 15th May, 1917.

Good Hunting Sadsac

[muggle]

John - more on JOSEPH Watt ;

WATT Joseph VC - WSA1206 Skipper RNR 80F002

H.M. Drifter Floand Commodore Commanding British Adriatic Force

Otranto Straits Action Adriatic Drifters attack by Austrian Cruiser 15.05.17

Promoted Chief Skipper 15.05.17

For meritorious service in the action in the Straits of Otranto on the 15th May, 1917.

Good Hunting Sadsac

Hi Sadsac,

Good to hear from you & many thanks for the information on Joseph Watt VC.

However I'd like to point out a couple things about Joseph & another RNR John Watt (found during my long search)...

A Naval DSM/MID 'D-Day / Normandy Operations' group of 7: Chief Petty Officer Engineman J. Watt, D.S.M., Royal Naval Reserve

- Distinguished Service Medal. GVI first issue (LT/243EU J.Watt, Ch Engn, R.N.R.)

- British War Medal (219230A, J.Watt, D.H, R.N.R.)

- Allied Victory Medal (219230A, J.Watt, D.H, R.N.R.)

- 1939-45 Star

- Atlantic Star with clasp ‘France and Germany’

- War Medal with oakleaf for Mention-in-Despatches

- Royal Naval Reserve LSGC Medal. GVI first issue (243/EU, J.Watt, Ch.Engn, R.N.R.)

Chief Petty Officer Engineman John Watt, was born at Crovie, Gardenstown, Banffshire, Scotland on 22 June 1900, and came from a trawler family with a tradition of naval service (Johns elder brother James Watt who was killed in action when H.M.Drifter 'Tuberose' was lost at sea due to enemy action during the Great War). John Watt's DSM was published in the London Gazette of 1/1/1944.

...both Joseph & the above mentioned John were apparently born in Gardenstown (Banff/Scotland) & my grandfather (John Watt) was also born in Crovie/Gardenstown in 1874 (although some documentation states 1875).

Where as I have no doubt all three are related in some way, that has not really helped me in anyway during the research on my grandfathers WW1 RNR Service.

The main reason I first mentioned Joseph Watt VC at the start of this post was because I thought someone just may have information on the drifter ANNIE, which Joseph was supposed to have part owned prior to joining the RNR in WW1?

Kind regards,

John.

[sadsac]

Hello John, re JOHN Watt - realise that that is he whom you were looking for info on, but have found that in this Forum all sorts of `extra' info is sort, hence my posting re JOSEPH whom you had `mentioned'. So some info on THALIA ; more such on THALIA / WHITE OAK / OSIRIS 11 ;

CUDBERTSON Frederick G N/E Lt. RNR 84S154 Thalia

Senior Naval Officer Cromarty 11.04.19 G

Auxiliary Patrol Cromarty 01.07.18 - 11.11.18 DSC

In command of a Division of Patrol Trawlers since 1916, during which time he has consistently distinguished himself by the able and zealous manner in which he has carried out the very arduous patrol and escort work.

KOKO Sadsac

[sadsac]

John, THALIA gen again, hope not too boring ;

CORMACK John N/E Skipper RNR 84S064 Thalia & Industry

C-in-C Coast Scotland - S.N.O. Cromarty - Captain A.P. Cromarty 06.04.18 G

Auxiliary Patrols 01.01.17 - 31.01.17 M in D

He has commanded the Indicator Net Drifters with considerable success.

Continuous good service in this area for over three years.

Regards Sadsac

[muggle]

John, THALIA gen again, hope not too boring ;

CORMACK John N/E Skipper RNR 84S064 Thalia & Industry

C-in-C Coast Scotland - S.N.O. Cromarty - Captain A.P. Cromarty 06.04.18 G

Auxiliary Patrols 01.01.17 - 31.01.17 M in D

He has commanded the Indicator Net Drifters with considerable success.

Continuous good service in this area for over three years.

Regards Sadsac

Hi again Sadsac (I don't think your type of information can ever be boring...)

Its always good to see information on Skipper & crew members of ships, it provides more credibility & reality to their history - I was really starting to believe some of grandfathers Service Record ships had never existed.

Its been said that a ship without a name is like a ghost upon the water, one without a named Skipper & crew can surely cast no different an image.

Keep on posting!

John.

[muggle]

Does any one on the Great War Forum know how to go about obtaining more details on the lost of the ANNIE?

Hired drifter Annie, completed 1907, 94 tons gross, 1-3pdr gun. Admiralty no 2118, Port no FR.420 [Fraserburgh]. Service Jan. 1915 - 19/12/17. Destroyed after grounding off Enos].

Courtesy of ARABIS

I would also be very interested to know if Joseph Watt VC actually part owned this vessel prior to WW1 or if such source of that information actually reads J. Watt?

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Try the ADM 12 indexes, I presume there was an Admiralty enquiry into the grounding.

As for ownership, have you looked in the port registers for Fraserborough?

[muggle]

Try the ADM 12 indexes, I presume there was an Admiralty enquiry into the grounding.

As for ownership, have you looked in the port registers for Fraserborough?

I'm assuming ADM 12 (is at the National Archives but) can't be accessed online, do you know if it would be the same for the port registers for Fraserburgh?

Many thanks,

John.

[sadsac]

John OK - another THALIA Recommendation / Award ;

NOALL William N/E Lt. RNVR 87X272 Thalia

C-in-C Coast of Scotland 21.06.19 N/E

Post War Brought to Notice

Has done most valuable work in the Instruction and Practices of Gunnery and Explosives, and as an Officer of the Depot. He is most zealous officer and is strongly recommended for recognition.

Sadsac

[sadsac]

John, THALIA again ;

WATSON Clement N/E Chief Warrant Engineer RNR 87X272 Thalia

C-in-C Coast of Scotland 21.06.19 N/E

Post War Brought to Notice

Has been in charge of the machinery and hull repairs of the Cromarty Auxiliary Patrol Vessels since 1914. Has performed most valuable and zealous, and carried the care and maintenance work to a high pitch.

KOKO Sadsac

[ARABIS]

John,

Just for curiosity I tried finding Enos. Apparently it is the English spelling for Ainos, a mountain which overlooks the sea on the island of Cephalonia [Kefallinia] off the mainland of Greece in the Ionian Sea. Might be of use to you.

Regards,

ARABIS.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

The original Admiralty correspondence (including recommendations for awards) was indexed by the Admiralty secretariat. The index of the 'in letters' is now ADM 12, at Kew. A recipient for an award will have an entry indexed under his surname. Sometimes an officer or rating appeared in a document that was digested (summarized) and that digest is also in ADM 12 (the digest reference will also be in the index). Joseph WATT might have appeared in other correspondence too, but that would mean several years searching. Be warned these index volumes are HUGE.

For more details of the process see Spencer, William, Medals The Researcher's Companion (ISBN: 1903365635) and the research leaflet http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalog...?sLeafletID=380

Port registers also at Kew, crew lists mostly went to Newfoundland.

[muggle]

John,

Just for curiosity I tried finding Enos. Apparently it is the English spelling for Ainos, a mountain which overlooks the sea on the island of Cephalonia [Kefallinia] off the mainland of Greece in the Ionian Sea. Might be of use to you.

Regards,

ARABIS.

Absolutely excellent, I had already looked at some of this type of information earlier...

Many thanks,

John.

[muggle]

The original Admiralty correspondence (including recommendations for awards) was indexed by the Admiralty secretariat. The index of the 'in letters' is now ADM 12, at Kew. A recipient for an award will have an entry indexed under his surname. Sometimes an officer or rating appeared in a document that was digested (summarized) and that digest is also in ADM 12 (the digest reference will also be in the index). Joseph WATT might have appeared in other correspondence too, but that would mean several years searching. Be warned these index volumes are HUGE.

For more details of the process see Spencer, William, Medals The Researcher's Companion (ISBN: 1903365635) and the research leaflet http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalog...?sLeafletID=380

Port registers also at Kew, crew lists mostly went to Newfoundland.

Much appreciated (per ardua per mare per terram)

Looks like I could be even more busy.

Kind regards,

John.

[muggle]

I would consider most of you learning all aspects of the Great War may have its history quite well versed (bearing that in mind) & considering my current shipping search, I would like to ask for your expertise on the following sequential extract?

Quote (from SUPERIOR FORCE Chapter 19):

“For all their apparent comprehensiveness, the plans of Rebeur-Paschwitz were fatally compromised from the start — the result of one piece of intelligence of dubious value. On 20 December 1917 a British armed trawler had gone aground near Enos in the Gulf of Saros; on board was found a chart bearing vague pencil markings which, it was believed, might indicate the Allied minefields (the latest of which had been laid only the previous month). Liman von Sanders thoughtfully forwarded the chart to Rebeur-Paschwitz. Although comparison with their own charts of the probable enemy barrages revealed ‘remarkably little agreement’, Rebeur-Paschwitz made the fatal mistake of placing greater faith in the ‘fortuitous’ intelligence coup, which seemed to indicate that a gap existed, rather than the result of his own aerial reconnaissance. He altered his planned course accordingly.[12] The raid was on”.

Kind regards,

John.

102659615_1_.pdf