Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 11 January , 2004 Share Posted 11 January , 2004 Interesting I was talking to a dealer today who is getting the tooling made to manufacture blank full size death plaques - not sure if this legal? Views anyone? Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pete Wood Posted 11 January , 2004 Share Posted 11 January , 2004 I admit I am a little dismayed. There are two original moulds surviving; one is in the hands of a well known WW1 historian in the Liverpool area - and I own the other mould (some people on this forum already knew this). I bought my mould specially to prevent 'fakes' being made. The owner of the other mould has owned his for nearly two decades (see the Memorial Plaque Production thread). I admit I am a little sad, but that's life. I don't believe that what he is intending to do is illegal (as long as he declares that they are 'fakes'). It's piddled all over my plans; as many people know, I have been asked to write a book on the Memorial Plaques and Scrolls - and I had persuaded a TV company to get involved by following a plaque being made in a foundry. This is the reason I am travelling to India; something I had also announced. One or two people knew that I was travelling to India, with regard to the memorial plaques also. Am I disappointed? Yes. But there is not much I can do about it. Upset? Yes. It is literally years of planning and research (which I have been sharing with many) down the tubes. A real shame - and I shall certainly now have to rethink my plans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 11 January , 2004 Share Posted 11 January , 2004 I wouldn't get upset just yet. In 25 years of collecting I have heard a few times from both dealers and collectors that they were 'about to get plaques off the ground' and get them into full production so that we could all live in the Utopia of having every casualty group united with a plaque. Needless to say nothing has ever come of it. The nearest was a professional model maker who made them in resin; they were damn good, even with fake verdigris - I have one. In a frame with a lead weight in it, no one would know. But when he looked into the possibility of getting them made with a name added, it was big bucks. Whoever does this it needs to have COPY stamped all over the FRONT of it; otherwise groups like the OMRS and WFA should go public on a united front. Or we will see them flood Ebay; all to 1st July officer casualties, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen White Posted 11 January , 2004 Author Share Posted 11 January , 2004 =Racing Teapots,Sun, 11 Jan 2004 18:42:16 +0000] There are two original moulds surviving; one is in the hands of a well known WW1 historian in the Liverpool area - and I own the other mould (some people on this forum already knew this). I bought my mould specially to prevent 'fakes' being made. The owner of the other mould has owned his for nearly two decades (see the Memorial Plaque Production thread). i like the sentiment and understand it.the only plaques that would have meant anything are the originals,given to the next of kin.any produced (even from original dies/stamps) i would assume would be for commercial reasons,cheapens the meaning of them in my view. unfortunately with the growth in interest in WW1,to many people with the wrong motives are jumping on the bandwagon,keen to make a "quick buck".i plead to them don't do it. RACING don't give up on the project,you've put to much time into it,i for one would look forward to the programme and the book. STEVEN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 11 January , 2004 Share Posted 11 January , 2004 Interesting I was talking to a dealer today who is getting the tooling made to manufacture blank full size death plaques - not sure if this legal? Views anyone? Ian I should add that I do not know the said person, only met him today - it was just someone I got into conversation with. I would not have taken it seriously had he not shown me a CAD drawing. Anyway as Paul has pointed out it will probably come to nothing. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nshighlander Posted 11 January , 2004 Share Posted 11 January , 2004 Hi I have one. Pte Joseph Richardson 902265 DOW 4/10/18.It looks like they sent everything April 15 1921.As per the medal card.The penny has the W and the A through it 37 in the leg. Cheers Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pete Wood Posted 12 January , 2004 Share Posted 12 January , 2004 Hi Dave As the Canadian records show so much, I wonder if you would be so kind as to tell me the date that the scroll was sent please. If anyone else has a plaque or scroll, I would be very pleased to hear from you. Rest assured that anyone who wants to remain anonymous, may do so. I will not publish anything (if it even gets to that stage) without permission, on that you have my promise. Dave, I am slightly confused as to the date you have given for your casualty. According to CWGC it says: Name: RICHARDSON, JOSEPH Initials: J Nationality: Canadian Rank: Private Regiment: Canadian Infantry (Nova Scotia Regt.) Unit Text: "A" Coy. 85th Bn. Age: 19 Date of Death: 20/09/1918 Service No: 902265 Additional information: Son of Mr. and Mrs. M. C. Richardson, of Westville. Pictou Co., Nova Scotia. Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: VII. A. 98. Cemetery: DUISANS BRITISH CEMETERY, ETRUN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nshighlander Posted 12 January , 2004 Share Posted 12 January , 2004 Hi Something else to add to the fire.He was a minor.I just rec`d his file from NA.So as per the CWGC he`s date is 20/09/18.I have three dates in his file.One is the date I posted 4/10/18.I also found this 30/9/18 (SW BACK and ABDOMEN).Ialso have this it must be from the hospital. date- 7 10 18 DOW 1 C C H Sept 30th 1918 GSW back abdomen. Cheers Dave I wish I could scan this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nshighlander Posted 12 January , 2004 Share Posted 12 January , 2004 Soory brain F___T Scroll sent April 15 1921 Ser #800127.Thats the only date on the card. Cheers Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pete Wood Posted 15 January , 2004 Share Posted 15 January , 2004 I would like to thank the forum member who kindly told me that the plaque for Lord Kitchener is being offered for sale, once again, by R & M International. The price for the plaque and the scroll is USD $9,999. This has a few features which are different from the many hundreds of plaques that I have seen, and I would welcome your views and thoughts about what you see here..... The plaque says: Horatio Herbert Earl Kitchener of Khartoum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pete Wood Posted 15 January , 2004 Share Posted 15 January , 2004 Here is the scroll, which is also very different to the many that I have seen. Again, I would appreciate your views, and observations...... On the scroll is written: F. M. Earl Kitchener, K. P. G. C. B. O. M. The plaque is on the previous page to this thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Shaw Posted 15 January , 2004 Share Posted 15 January , 2004 Racing, Is this the real McCoy Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ich dien Posted 16 January , 2004 Share Posted 16 January , 2004 Hey, you plaque experts. Might you advise me on a question of presentation? Forgive me if this has been covered before. I have now searched back over this fascinating thread (and the earlier one) but cannot find the answer to my query. Have also tried the interesting article on the IWM website but that doesn't seem to help directly. My brother-in-law is putting back together his grandfather's plaque, medals, scroll and photo, which had been broken up years ago and scattered round the family. It has taken him ages to collect it all together. The exciting news is that he has now found the original commercial display case! It is one of the octagonal ones, but it has lost its lining and mounts. Can anyone please describe the layout of the elements inside the case, or better still signpost us to a picture of one (I'm sure someone must have one?) Bro in law is very keen to restore it as it once looked, when his grandmother had it displayed in her parlour. Jill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Shaw Posted 16 January , 2004 Share Posted 16 January , 2004 Hi Jill, You could try Ray Newell’s website, he provides a mount designed specifically for mounting medals and plaques. I believe these are based on a design that would originally have been available in the 1920's. Andy Plaques Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Posted 10 February , 2004 Share Posted 10 February , 2004 hi there u'll have to excuse me if i'm being a little slow!! ive read the whole three pages on this subject and i think its amazing! espically all of your combined knowledge!! I was given a death plaque of my Great Great uncle, he was killed August 1914 ages 17. its never been touched and arrived in the card envlope and the outer one with the address on. the number next to the lions leg is 46. But do u no if there was ever a number written on the envolope that the plaque actually comes in (i'm talking about the plain white/cream one with the royal crest on)??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmsk212 Posted 10 February , 2004 Share Posted 10 February , 2004 Tommy, The few white envelopes that I have had have all had a number written on the outside in pencil. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Posted 10 February , 2004 Share Posted 10 February , 2004 hi steve any ideas wot the number stands for maybe a batch number or something?? any of ur numbers the same by any chance?? regards tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmsk212 Posted 10 February , 2004 Share Posted 10 February , 2004 Tommy, All of the numbers I have had have been six figure numbers and rightly or wrongly I have always taken them to be the issue number for the plaque. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Posted 10 February , 2004 Share Posted 10 February , 2004 really well this could be tru,e as uve read my g/g uncle was killed on the 28 of august 1914 so very very early on and if the issue number is true then I have number 39 shame i don't have his medals to go with it!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mancunian Posted 10 February , 2004 Share Posted 10 February , 2004 Folks, I've been watching this thread with great interest, and it has been truely fascinating. I was quite unaware of the significance of the detail on the plaque that I have. Thanks to all for sharing this knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fintasticus Posted 21 February , 2004 Share Posted 21 February , 2004 Hi, I recently found a plaque and came across this thread while researching it. As this is not my "collecting" area of expertise,I found the information extremely useful and informative. I was hoping someone could give me a little more info on my plaque with the name "Oswald Joseph Green". It has the number 78 between the lions back leg and the tail but i can find no marking on the rear of the plaque. I am in Australia if that is of any help... Thanks, Ken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorts Posted 21 February , 2004 Share Posted 21 February , 2004 Hi, Are you after information on the plaque itself or the gentleman named on it? For yours and everyone elses information it relates to the following gentleman: Name: GREEN Initials: O J Nationality: Australian Rank: Private Regiment: Australian Infantry, A.I.F Unit Text: 38th Bn. Date of Death: 11/08/1918 Service No: 3309 Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: II. F. 9. Cemetery: VILLERS-BRETONNEUX MILITARY CEMETERY Do you have his service record from the Australian National Archives? He landed in France 6/10/17 and thus his NoK was entitled to a British War Medal and Victory Medal in addition to the plaque. The following link also notes that he was KiA as opposed to DoW. rgds, Alex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pete Wood Posted 21 February , 2004 Share Posted 21 February , 2004 Ken, the number 78 and its postition means your plaque was definitely made at the Woolwich Arsenal in London. It was most likely sent from the records office, in Australia, sometime in 1923. While it may be difficult to see, the WA mark was certainly placed near the centre of the back of the plaque. If the plaque has been polished or rubbed, this mark my have been worn away. Alex, I don't think your link didn't came out. Here is the link to the AWM http://www.awm.gov.au/find/index.asp and make sure you click WW1. Tommy, if I have read your email correctly, you are about to become my new best friend. Steve (HMSK212) has told you that his collection contains the white envelopes which were the outer covers, used to send the plaque (which in turn was protected by a thick brown card envelope). As Steve has said, the white envelope has a label gummed to it. The label's number IS the production number - ie number 999 shows that nearly one thousand plaques had been made and that the casualty was an early one (died in the first few weeks of the war) as the plaques were made on a first-died-first-made basis. Tommy, if you have an envelope that has just the number 39 on it it is without doubt the lowest number that I am aware of anywhere in the world. Before I get too excited, please would you be so kind as to post a picture of the envelope and the plaque. Your plaque should be marked with a number to the left of the lion's rear paw which shows it was made at Acton; the first plaque manufacturer. Your envelope should also have a printed address on the front which gives the address of the factory in London. If your envelope has all the above, then you hold an important and early item in your hand. It might even, if we are lucky, show the postal date (which will be in 1919, when the first plaques were produced). Very few plaques were made at the beginning of the production run, and I would very much like to examine your plaque to see if there are any differences between your plaque and those made later. Another forum member, John Flook, also has an August 1914 plaque (which has the number 24 on it). Please could you tell me the batch number on your plaque, next to the lion's paw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Posted 21 February , 2004 Share Posted 21 February , 2004 Hi there After reading ur message i don't think we are talking about the same envolope, I have got the brown card surround, a white envolope in the middle of this which the plaque actully goes in with the slip of paper from the King. I have no addressed envolope like I have seen pitures of. The number 39 written in pencil is on the white envolope inside the brown card but there is nothing else written on there just the number. The batch number on the plaque is number 46. Hope this helps i'll get a picture taken so u can have a closer look and see what you think about it. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fintasticus Posted 23 February , 2004 Share Posted 23 February , 2004 Thanks all for your responses to my query. As I am not a militaria collector this plaque will be listed for sale on eBay within the next few days with a very reasonable opening bid. A chance for you true collectors to add another DMP to your collection. Thanks Again, Ken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now