Jump to content
Free downloads from TNA ×
The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Dead Man's Penny !


Stephen White

Recommended Posts

Guest Pete Wood
my assumption that the plaques are about the size of a modern cd. what is their actual size ??.

Approximately 120mm (around 4.72 inches).

There can be a fractional difference in size. I have seen examples where the mould was getting worn and as the mould is 'stretched' an additional 1 or 2 mm can sometimes be measured.

However, the plaques were also burnished on a wheel and I have also seen one that has been poorly finished (and looked a bit like an old threepenny piece, or 50p coin), which was 2-3mm smaller in diameter than it should have been.

Each plaque weighs about 4 ounces and is not very thick.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Steven,

Unfortunately there is no index, or comprehensive listing of mailing dates, as far as I am aware. The medal awards information is included in each CEF 'service record file' (most of the time). The medal card will show medal entitlement, and the naming information for entitled medals, as well as the mailing dates for all items sent-including Commemorative Scroll, and Canadian Memorial Cross.

Yes, a Memorial Death Plaque is similar in size to a CD, only slightly larger in perimeter.

Find attached a Medal Card for a fallen Canadian Officer (who fell near Arras in May 1917)

Hope that helps,

Best wishes

David

post-1-1073668978.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

RACING TEAPOTS. thanks.just got to track the plaque down now,GEORGE left behind a very big family,it should be out there somewhere !!.but no one is admitting to having it yet.George White is a very common name,so i should imagine there would be a lot with that name on,out there.whats the market value,if it turns out that no one in the family has got it??.as i've asked earlier where do i find out when his widow recieved it ??. STEVEN

Link to comment
Share on other sites

just got DAVIDS reply,as i was typing the last posting.thank you very much both of you. STEVEN :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Pete Wood

Market value appears to be no less than £30.

On eBay they seem to go for more like £40-£50.

If it's to an officer, or a 1st July 1916 casualty etc etc, it gets to be very silly £70-£100+

You'll also need to dig deep for an Indian/Gurkha or Chinese plaque.

Lord Kitchener's plaque was auctioned at some time. I forgot to ask how much that went for.....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Okay, if my theory is correct, if you turn your plaque over - there will be a WA mark on the back of it.

In other words, that plaque was made by the Woolwich Arsenal......

Teapots,

Yes, you are quite right there is a 'W' with small line in it on the reverse of the T----- plaque, lookes like an 'A' over top the 'W'. I have include a photo of the entire T----- collection for readers interest. This is the complete NOK medal entitlement that would have been received starting with the 1914-15 Star.

Regards

David

post-1-1073669993.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Pete Wood
Find attached a Medal Card for a fallen Canadian Officer (who fell near Arras in May 1917)

Bingo!!

Do note the plaque and scroll serial numbers.

David, I don't know if you have an envelope sent to the next of kin by the Memorial Plaque Factory (or Woolwich), but that serial number was put onto the envelope and also onto the cardboard tube in which the scroll was sent.

The serial number was typed onto a roll, which also contained the NoK's address. This 'label' was then cut out by hand, using scissors and glued to the envelope and tube.

I have not seen the serial number recorded anywhere before. The rolls do not survive. I think that the rolls were used in conjunction with the plaque mould. In other words, a worker at Acton would (as an example) be given roll number 5 and this would have the names for all the men killed on November 3rd 1917. All the plaques would be stamped with number 5 and checked off, with the serial number cut up and glued to the envelope and tube.

Remember the plaques were being made in Acton/Woolwich, while the scrolls were being produced at the London School of Art and Crafts.

I am convinced the serial number refers to the number of plaques made (issued) so far. I also 'believe' that it refers to how many men/women have died.

So plaque number one was issued to the soldier killed in August 1914, and plaque 900,000 was issued to a soldier killed in 1918 etc. Well that was the theory until your evidence showed that men who died in 1918 received their plaques before some who had died in 1917.... :(

I have not seen this number noted anywhere before. Is this unique to Canadian records?

It's good here, isn't it...?? ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Both these plaque are to the Worcestershire Regt. and the casualties are June and August 1915. The numbers 51 and 27 are seen respectively to the left of the lions foot. (Sorry for the large size photo)

Teapots, your thoughts?

David

PS-I know I have an envelope with mailing info somewhere around here? Will post when I find it.

post-1-1073671247.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Pete Wood

Okay well they are both Acton made, of that much I am sure.

Sob!! But you have a higher number (I have not seen or heard of an Acton number 51 before).

The 51 is on the earlier casualty, so I now must revert to an earlier theory; the numbers refer to the mould (or table number at which the operator worked). I will get out my old papers, which describe the manufacturing process so you can see why I have said this.

Am I right to assume that both men were British, and not Canadian...??

By the way, for others not familiar with these plaques, David has placed these two on top of the original cardboard envelopes in which they were sent by post (which was inside another envelope).

Edited by Racing Teapots
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Are you saying the earlier the casualty, the earlier the batch number on the plaque? The one below is to a Capt G.G.Fitze who was killed at 1st Ypres in October 1914. The number is to the left of the foot, and is No 33. It is an Action plaque.

Sorry it's not a brilliant scan - next time I will photograph one!

post-1-1073672206.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Teapots,

Here is the original mailing envelope for:

132787 Pte. W.J.J. M------

73rd Bn. CEF Died of Wounds November 2, 1916

Plaque posted: October 18, 1921

Interesting to note that 1921 was same for McRae and Smith also Sept-October 1916 casualties?

In regards to above Worcstershire Plaques, both are British. No 51 is indeed the earlier casualty-Krithia June 1915; 27 is his brother killed August 1915

post-1-1073672427.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Pete Wood

Paul, I WAS saying that. Yes. But now I realise that is obviously not the case. The plaques from you and David make very convincing proof.

I wish I'd known you guys years ago. I could have saved myself a lot of time chatting with people who only have one or two plaques in their collection.

Like I said on the original thread for Memorial Plaque Production, I want to put the myths to one side. You are helping me do this.

David, you are so lucky. I have never seen one of these envelopes before. I have only had a description of one. So it would seem that envelopes (with the plaques) were sent direct to the next of kin to the UK from Acton (and Woolwich?), while plaques for other countries were sent to the Records Offices of other nations to be distributed from there.

But what about people who came from Brazil and Scandinavia etc....?? Any thoughts??

Come on, who has a picture of the cardboard tube (for the scroll) with the label on it....??

Edited by Racing Teapots
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Come on, who has a picture of the cardboard tube (for the scroll) with the label on it....??

I have several of these; I thought I had sent you a photo of the AIF one I have? If not, I will try and fish it out again.

My medal and plaque collection has largely been stored away for 10+ years. I have a lot of paperwork on plaques etc, which I didn't realise you would be interested in. Sorry about that. When I get round to sorting it all out this year, I will be in touch.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Come on, who has a picture of the cardboard tube (for the scroll) with the label on it....??

Here you go. Both British Casualties. The top one is an October 1914 casualty and the other is late 1918.

Hope that helps

D

post-1-1073673592.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Pete Wood

Yet more differences. I am getting dizzy!!

David, what is the posted date on the tube for the 1914 casualty please??

These scroll tubes are different to the one (AIF) that Paul has shown me.

Are the tubes from Canada (and other countries) any different, in terms of labels and stamps...??

Now correct me if I'm wrong, here. But I think that the scrolls were sent from the London School of Arts and Crafts to the various Records Offices.

The scrolls were then put into the tubes, labelled, and posted from the Records Office to the Next Of Kin. So the address of the Records Office should be on the tube (rubber stamped??). Does that seem right to you...??

OK guys, you are now tasked with finding a picture of an envelope sent from the Memorial Plaque Factory, with the Acton address on it. There is a really poor example on the Imperial War Museum site http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/exhibits/plaque06.htm Does anyone have a better scan/picture..?? Does such an envelope from Woolwich exist, also...??

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Teapots,

I think we now have a pattern, further enforced by this example-Pte. D------- 16th Bn. CEF Killed, October 8, 1916.

His plaque as the same with M-----, M----- and S----- were all mailed in 1921; and all Sept-October casualties. Interesting!?

(I sadly can not find any post dates on the tubes)

post-1-1073676466.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here is the reverse of the same envelope to D-------. I think this is the same as shown on the IWM web site link you provided?

post-1-1073676544.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Absolutely Amazing. might have started the thread off,but this has been one of the most absorbing topics i've read since i joined the forum. the bit about the scrolls is fascinating,it's the one for my Great Grandfather George White,that started all this research off.the scroll is all we had,still in its original tube.unfortunately it now belongs to my dad and i can't get at it.can any of you print an image of one for me,nigel (another forum member) shares the same Great Grandfather,he is yet to see one of these scrolls.thanks. STEVEN :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here you go Steven,

This scroll belongs with one of the mailing tubes above.

This has been a fun thread!

Hope that helps,

David

(Sorry again for the large size)

post-1-1073678196.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

PALS I KNOW WE ARE NOT TO SWEAR ON FORUM,BUT THIS IS ABSOLUTLY BLOODY MARVELOUS.Sorry but this is great.to turn up the forum and see my grandfathers brrothers plaque is great.makes my stomac turn.THOUGH I DID SEND IT TO r.t..Then al the other material is great.Please could someone send in a scan of the reverse of the Woolich arsenal plaque.Is it my imajination ? I SEEM TO REMEMBER THAT SOME PLAQUES WERE PRODUCED IN INDIA.IS THIS CORRECT OR WRONG?Sorry I am also all exited and my upper and lower case have got mixed up.I have decided to stay with spontinaety rather than re-type.

ISIT NOT GOOD TO BE A FORUM MEMBER.NO ITS GREAT.

JOHN. :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Pete Wood

David, I'm sure the pattern will become more understandable, the more examples are examined.

Shipments must have been made and sent in batches - especially abroad to Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India etc.

Would it not seem feasible for the UK factory to be making the plaques for British casualties, and wait until enough of the various 'commonwealth' plaques have been made so that they fill a container? Then they have to be stored until there is a ship ready to take them. This would explain the slight discrepancies in the dates that they are dispatched from the Records Offices, abroad.....

The back of your envelope shows the label, cut out with scissors, that I referred to earlier. I had thought it would match the number of the scroll. But you have shown that the London School of Art and Crafts obviously had a different numbering system.

The difficulities in production, of the plaques, are clearly demonstrated in David's paperwork showing that the scroll had been sent nearly a year before the plaque.

As for the scroll, it is a joy to see one. They are such rare survivors, compared to the bronze plaques.

The scrolls were printed using a wooden block that had been carved by hand. This was not some automated process, either. Each piece of paper was hand printed. All (that I have seen) are very slightly different. I have seen four different types of paper; there may be more. The back of the paper was smoothed in hot presses. Then the 'front' of the paper was roughened, slightly, to accept the ink used by the scribes.

The scribes (mainly men and women who were studying at the school, along with some 'paid' staff) were busy churning out these scrolls for which the government was billed the princely sum of 1 1/2d (1.5 old pennies). They used a style of writing called 'Roundhand' using a quill made from Turkey feathers. I spent a lovely day with one of Britain's top calligraphers as he showed me how paper and ink was prepared, and how the scribes would cut the quill with a penknife.

The 'hand' (font), used to write a casualty's name, is one adapted by Grailley Hewitt, based on medieval scrolls which can be seen today in the British Library.

If you look carefully under each of the two (red) written lines, you may just be able to notice that the scribe has used a pencil and ruler to make a guide.

Blue ink was used to write the name of Navy and Merchant Navy etc casualties. Red ink was used for all other casualties including the RFC/RAF.

The best scribes were used to write the scrolls for officers and other ranks (who had been awarded medals for bravery) - eg:

Pte John Alan Smith, MM

Lancashire Regt

The battalion number - eg "1/8 Hampshire Regiment" would NOT have been written. It would simply say 'Hampshire Regt.'

Ships names were used; HMS Hampshire etc.

In the case of RFC it might say, for example:

Capt John Smith, DFC, MC

Hampshire Regt & 400 Sqn RFC

All common abbreviations were used: Capt, Pte, Regt, Bn, AIF, CEF etc etc

Edited by Racing Teapots
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lord Kitchener's plaque was auctioned at some time. I forgot to ask how much that went for.....

There is a thread on this entitled 'Kitchener's death plaque for sale' (sorry can't do one of those hyperlink thingy’s :( )

Link to comment
Share on other sites

DAVID. thanks for the image of the scroll,i'll pass the image onto nigel.one thing puzzles me a little,i've only seen my Great Grandfathers scroll once,but it appears to be different to the example you've shown.the wording is not that dis-similar (from what i can remember).and there is some sort of crest at the top.however under the crest there is a blank panel and stuck/printed on that panel is my Great grandfathers details, (almost word for word the same as his entry in Soldiers Killed in the Great War).was the design of these scrolls varied,or has my family got something else all together ??. STEVEN :unsure:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The scroll you are describing was an unofficial thing made by ex-servicemen who lived on the Somme (in Albert) in the 1920s. They made a number of different designs, and pasted on the extract from the register in the middle of the scroll. The name of the cemetery or memorial was printed on the bottom. The whole thing was done by 'cold calling' as it were.

They are about A3+ size and won't fit on my scanner!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

PAUL. that sounds spot on,as it does mention Boulogne Eastern Cemetery where George is buried at the bottom of the scroll.unfortuntely along with his memorial plaque,the scroll that DAVID posted with his last reply is yet another item that has "disappeared" into the family.an awful lot of stuff to track down !!. STEVEN :rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...