Dead Man's Penny !

[Stephen White]

Something that cropped up in conversation recently was something refered to (in slang terms) as a "Dead Mans Penny". i'm told that it was some sort of commemorative coin/medal issued to the families of the dead servicemen in WW1.it came in a bag/box the size of a modern cd case and had the name of the soldier/serviceman on the back. does anyone know anything about this if it existed what was it's correct title and does anyone have an image of one !!. STEVEN

[Tim Birch]

So far as I know it refers to the practice of placing a penny over each of the eyes of a cadaver prior to closing the lid of the coffin.

Tim

[Neil Burns]

Hi Steven,

i think your are referring to the memorial Plaques issued to a soldier's next of kin.

I'm sure if you search the forum for 'Memorial Plaque' you will find a thread with an image of one.

Take care,

Neil

[David Blue]

'Memorial Death Plaque' awarded to all fallen commonwealth soldiers families.

[Neil Burns]

David,

Is there any decoration or award you don't have a handy photo of?

Take care,

Neil

[Terry Denham]

Steven

Take a look at this thread.

http://www.1914-1918.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=129&hl=

[Guest Pete Wood]

David, that plaque is soooooo crisp.

Okay, if my theory is correct, if you turn your plaque over - there will be a WA mark on the back of it.

In other words, that plaque was made by the Woolwich Arsenal......

I don't suppose you know the date it was received by the next of kin, do you??

Edited 8 January , 2004 by Racing Teapots

[David Blue]

David, that plaque is soooooo crisp.

Okay, if my theory is correct, if you turn your plaque over - there will be NO markings on the back of it.

In other words, that plaque was made by the Woolwich Arsenal......

I don't suppose you know the date it was received by the next of kin, do you??

I will check the reverse when I get home from the office today. (In fact I can also check others for variation if you like? I have some 100+ plaques in my collection)

The service records for the above soldier (and all Canadians) show the dates all medals and awards were posted to NOK. I will get you the date for Mr. Turney.

Hope that helps,

David

[Guest Pete Wood]

I will check the reverse when I get home from the office today. (In fact I can also check  others for variation if you like? I have some 100+ plaques in my collection)

The service records for the above soldier (and all Canadians) show the dates all medals and awards were posted to NOK. I will get you the date for Mr. Turney.

David, I would REALLY appreciate your help - especially with regard to Canadian plaques.

Okay, when you check your plaques, look at the number by the bottom of the Lion's back leg.

If the number is between the Lion's legs (Turney is 7) then the plaque 'should' be marked WA (really a W with a bar running through it, so it looks like WA) on the rear of the plaque. This means it was made at Woolwich Arsenal.

If the number is to the left of the back leg, it will have NO markings - which shows it was made at the Memorial Plaque Factory in Acton.

The numbers on the Acton Plaques have not been found above 50.

The numbers on the Woolwich Plaques can reach up to 100.

All plaques for women are numbered 11.

Some people say that certain regiments also share the same number, but I have not seen enough 'firm' proof of this.

The name of the soldier on very late issued plaques, are engraved (not raised letters as shown on the Turney plaque). These all appear to have been made at Woolwich. If anyone knows of an engraved plaque that was made by Acton, make a reverse charge phone call to me now - AND I'll buy you dinner.

I would dearly love to know the earliest and latest received dates that you have records for, please.

[David Blue]

Teapots,

Thanks for that wealth of information. I will follow up this evening or tomorrow with further info. I have never been able to see any pattern or consistencies in thoes numbers by the lions foot.

However I do have a plaque or two that feel different from the others: Black as night, much thicker, and heavier then others. Is this something you have seen before?

David

[Stephen White]

thanks for the replies so far.i can see that there appears to be two versions of this plaque.if my great grandfather died in march 1915.which one is his widow likely to have been given the first one ??. steven

[Guest Pete Wood]

The only variations I have seen in thickness are ones made at Acton - and I'm getting more certain that these were early production versions.

This 'should' tie in with the fact that the casualty was also an early one - ie he/she died before June 1915. As youo know, proving this can be difficult as many names are common to more than one casualty. The plaque above belongs to forum member John Flook. He has no scroll, but there is no one else with that name (it's a 1914 casualty). So notice the location of the number - which is an Acton plaque.

The only really thick one I have seen (and it was a pic, not in the 'flesh') was a copy. But I just KNOW that you would not have bought a fake.

The colours do vary. The patina was a chemical, made by 'eye.' But I would hazard a guess that someone has been playing with the plaque afterwards. I believe the discerning collectors prefer their plaques to be dark (unpolished). It is not difficult to make bronze dark. It is also not difficult to build up a 'worn' (polished) plaque in a Nickel bath. But you will lose definition

So if it does NOT look crisp, AND it is really dark, I would steer clear of it.

[Guest Pete Wood]

thanks for the replies so far.i can see that there appears to be two versions of this plaque.if my great grandfather died in march 1915.which one is his widow likely to have been given the first one ??.      steven

Steven, the plaques should look identical. The only difference is where they were made, hence the markings.

But if my theory is correct, your G Grandfather's plaque will most likely have been made at Acton. My 'guess' is based on the fact that Acton made the plaques for the first 200,000 (maybe 300,000 casualties) - in other words about 25% of the production; the rest was made at Woolwich. If anyone knows when the 200,000th (and 300,000th) casualty fell, then the theory could be tested. (Terry D...??)

I have been told by many collectors that plaques with common names - eg "John Smith" are worth more to the trade. They buy all such plaques to 'make up' sets.

[jimmyjames]

I wonder what the inscription is to the right of the lion's leading leg. It looks like EC2

[Guest Pete Wood]

It's the initials of the man who designed the plaque - Edward Carter Preston.

[Ken Lees]

This is fascinating. I had never noticed the numbering on the few plaques I have. Now I know that they are all WA, with numbers between 37 & 82, apart from the one with the number I can't make out - could be 21.

Thanks for the information.

Ken

[chris basey]

"and there was a great movement amongst the memorial plaques" as we all look for the tell tale numbers! You learn something new every day on this Forum!!

There's been no mention of the Royal Navy so can I mention my Grandfather - died 7th April 1918. His plaque is numbered 83 and his name is moulded so am I right to beleive that the plaque is from Woolwich?

[Ken Lees]

I believe that Navy plaques can be differentiated by the lettering which is different from other plaques. I can't remember which letter, but it be the width of the letter N in the inscription around the plaque (not the name of the individual)

Ken

[Guest Pete Wood]

It's the letter 'H' as in HE DIED.

A 1918 casualty will definitely have a Woolwich-made plaque.

I promise you, if you click on the link that Terry gave above - there is a LOT more info.

[David Blue]

Teapots,

Some info for you:

Lieut. G.B. -----

15th Bn. CEF, Killed April 24, 1915

Plaque Despatched to NOK: August 17, 1922

453 Pte. J. ------

8th Bn. CEF, Killed April 25, 1915

Plaque Despatched to NOK: July 15, 1922

113044 Pte. G.E. ---------

4th CMR, Killed October 1, 1916

Plaque Despatched to NOK: October 21, 1921

428686 Pte. G. ------

7th Bn. CEF, Killed September 26, 1916

Plaque Despatched to NOK: October 11, 1921

30777 A/Bmb. J.J. ----------

CFA. Killed November 23, 1917

Plaque Despatched to NOK:August 16, 1922

Lieut. J.G. -----------

19th Bn. CEF, KIA May 9, 1917

Plaque Despatched to NOK: March 10, 1922

Lieut. J.M. --------

CMGC. Died of Wounds November 3, 1918

Plaque Despatched to NOK: June 16, 1922

180876 Pte. E. ------------

2nd CMR, Died Wounds April 17, 1918

Plaque Despatched to NOK: January 24, 1922

437254 Pte. T. ----------- MM

7th Bn CEF, Killed October 6, 1918

Plaque Despatched to NOK: December 30, 1921

A fast cross section of mailing dates for Memorial Plaques, following a Canadian for each year of the war. No real logic to the dates?

PS: Sadly, and much to my disappointment...No further info on the date R.J. T-----'s Plaque was posted.

[Guest Pete Wood]

No logic, I agree. We're not downhearted

Much more interesting is that the two plaques sent to the next of kin of Ptes McRae and Smith predate (by 6 months!!) the plaques sent to Australia. The Aussie plaques, in turn, predate those sent to New Zealand.

I have a few questions:

Do you know if the next of kin of McRae and Smith were living in England when the plaques were sent??

Are all the 'Canadian' plaques Woolwich made??

Have you noticed any similarities in the numbers on the plaque for soldiers who died at around the same time, or who were in the same Regiment eg did you find that two men who were killed in September 1918 have the same plaque number??

[David Blue]

Hmmmm, let me have a look!

Will get back to you as soon as I have a chance to get to them.

Regards

David

PS: McRae's NOK are in Canada, and Smith in England

[Guest Pete Wood]

Good, I think you can see where I am heading.

With Smith out of the equation, we need to confirm that McRae's plaque was sent to Canada - and not to someone in the UK (even if his NoK were in Canada); this could happen.

Of course, I am happy for another theory to be put to bed. I have long held a 'belief' that the government made the relatives of commonwealth NoK wait much longer than the British families. Perhaps I was wrong....

[David Blue]

McRae's Plaque was sent to his father Robert McCrae Esq. in British Columbia Canada.

Hope that helps,

More info to follow

[Stephen White]

DAVID. watching your conversation with "RACING TEAPOTS" with some interest concerning the despatch dates of certain memorial plaques.i know your talking about some Canadian ones in particular.i don't suppose you have access to a "general list".if not where is the best place to look for that imformation.i would be very interested to try and find out when my Great Grandfathers Widow recieved her memorial. is my assumption that the plaques are about the size of a modern cd,what is their actual size ??. STEVEN