WW1 Cap Badges

[MBrockway]

..

MILITARY BADGES OF THE BRITISH EMPIRE by REGINALD H W COX good book a lot of drawn rather than actual photos of badges original cost £45 mine cost nothing like that.

..

Ralph

If you check out our Topic on KRRC Cap Badges, you'll see Cox talks about the 16th Battalion (Church Lads Brigade), KRRC having a different badge from the other KRRC battalions - as the Pals have pointed out, this is completely wrong! We even have an image of an actual 16/KRRC badge of indisputable provenance to prove it!

I've not seen Cox's book, and it seems to be well regarded otherwise, so probably worth having.

The message I guess is though, that just because something's in a book, doesn't mean it is necessarily correct - the wise researcher always gets corroboration from more than one source!

Cheers,

Mark

[yellow]

Hi Mark,

I think you may of misunderstood Cox. During WW1 cap badges mid to late war were a rare commodity. Only limited quantities of Battalion badges were produced. So rather than not wear a cap badge at all many of these battalions wore the standard badge of their regiment when they could no longer draw battalion badges from the stores.

Steve.

[max7474]

Steve is indeed right. Just because someone or a unit wore a badge does not mean it had exclsuive use. TA Bns wore regular pattern badges in place of their own blank scroll etc versions as those were the only ones available or even wore redundant units badges! Pre 1908 VB were brought out of store and issued to some Kitchener Bns due to shortages. I remain open minded as to whether the 16 Bn wore the CLB badge or not. Certainly after the losses of 1916 the new replacements would have had the KRRC badge shown earlier but that does not disprove Cox and the first members may well have had the CLB badge made for them when they formed. As mentioned earlier I did come across a 'diggers' website with the remnants of a CLB badge dug from the Somme. Unfortunately i cannot find it again!

Alan

[Black Watch]

Lots great posts and advice thank you all.

I was interested in the picture of the 2 badges shown side by side. Were Yellow & Brockway correct? I thought the one on the left looked better made and the detail was greater.

I'd love to see more pictures of real and fake badges, either together or separately.

Neil

[max7474]

That was my exactly point as the faker has done an excellent job. The genuine one is on the right. The give away is that the Hind (deer thing) on the fake is identical to a normal R Warwickshire badge where as the original has:

1. a bearded chin.

2. 3 small diamonds set horozontially in the coronet around its neck

3. A furry back - not visible in the photo.

The scroll dimensions on the fake are wrong as well as the lettering is too tall. The fake's slider is often (but not always) JR Gaunt.London marked whereas the correct ones were always blank. Should you want a fake as a gap filler then E*** seller Taxicar 19 has a limitless stock. As you can see the differnces are so minor that a novice would not notice them but see a rare badge on sale for a tenner and think 'what a bargain'.

Alan

[Black Watch]

The fake's slider is often (but not always) JR Gaunt.London marked whereas the correct ones were always blank.

Alan

Does that refer only to the Warwicks badge you showed?

Neil

[max7474]

I am prepared to be shot down here but as far as makers marks go RWarcs Other Ranks badges should bot be marked. The JR Gaunt.London mark is a fake mark and is found on lots of different designs. There are 3 types:

JR Gaunt London in very small font and I can only just read the lettering myself - Generally only found on cavalry and Yeomanry badges circa 1940-48.

JR Gaunt London in large font - as found on 1950-60s anodised aluminum badges. Found on brass badges 1947-1960.

Finally JR Gaunt. London - with full stop and in medium font. FAKE. Found on dodgy WW1- 1950s badges. Made by one firm and sold by half a dozen seles on ebay and other websites. I have never ever seen a genuine badge with this mark.

There are also JR Gaunt B'ham badges and these are found in a/a 1958 onwards pattern badges, Gaunt made badges (possible restruck by the company itself) especially 1950-60s yeomanry (but also WW1 RND and Pals) and sometimes on fake badges but generally poorly impressed.

personally I regard the first 2 types are good, the third as fake and the B'ham as suspect restrikes.

Alan

[Staffsyeoman]

Max,

I'll back you on markings to Royal Warwicks badges (Warwicks, please, not WarCs! )

In fact 'Gaunt markings' are so discredited now (I'm amazed they never sued) I utterly disregard them when used as collateral as to veracity except on AA badges. My Queen's Own Mercian Yeomanry cap badge (issued 1979) was marked JR Gaunt Bham - but someone joining later had one marked Buttons Bham.

[pbrydon]

Sorry to hear that Crown Imperial has folded, I was a member untill a few years ago. There once informative magazine, because of the lack of articles being submitted, became rather bland, through no fault of the editor

The problem with regard to military badges is that there are more people having a financial interest in that nothing is done about dud badges being sold as genuine,than those prepared to make a stand to do something about the problem.

Crown Imperial was ( I may have said this before ) a breakaway group from the M.H.S. formed because the M.H.S. at that time were not prepared to do anything about restrike/dud/spurious ( call them what you like ) badges being sold as genuine.

Trying to see things from both sides it is difficult to "prove" that some badges are not genuine,it often comes down to a matter of opinion and whilst not wishing to be sued, some published authors were not beyond selling badges which were at least questionable.

If anybody were to ask me about starting to collect military badges as a hobby my advice would be(other than a few examples to illustrate what badges might have been worn by relatives ) that you are entering a very expensive minefield and to bear in mind that if you ever decide to sell a collection, prospective purchasers will be look for some provenance to show that the badges you are selling are genuine.

One final thing, makers names on sliders or on small plaques on the back of badges are no guarantee of originality

P.B.

[MBrockway]

Steve is indeed right. Just because someone or a unit wore a badge does not mean it had exclsuive use. TA Bns wore regular pattern badges in place of their own blank scroll etc versions as those were the only ones available or even wore redundant units badges! Pre 1908 VB were brought out of store and issued to some Kitchener Bns due to shortages. I remain open minded as to whether the 16 Bn wore the CLB badge or not. Certainly after the losses of 1916 the new replacements would have had the KRRC badge shown earlier but that does not disprove Cox and the first members may well have had the CLB badge made for them when they formed. As mentioned earlier I did come across a 'diggers' website with the remnants of a CLB badge dug from the Somme. Unfortunately i cannot find it again!

Alan

Thanks Alan ... just when I thought we'd put this one to bed! Lucky we all enjoy a good debate eh?

Audax seems pretty convinced, and he has a lot of expertise on the Church Lads Brigade itself. His point about the CLB badge turning up in Gallipoli where there were never any KRRC units is also powerful.

Also why would the 16/KRRC have "Cadets" in the bottom arm of the cross? I can understand "C.L.B" in the top arm, but these were full grown men, and not a cadet unit.

My grandfather began with 12/KRRC and transferred to 16/KRRC at some unknown point, but it was most likely either after the losses on the Somme or the Kaiserschlacht, the latter being my current best guess as both battalions were hit equally on the Somme. From his photo in the other post, he seems to be wearing what looks like the post Queen Victoria Crown/pre-1908 Volunteer Battalions badge with no motto nor battle honours, which echoes what you say above, but it's very hard to tell even from the original photo ... which I've now seen.

rap1943's father was enlisted into 16/KRRC at its founding and wore the standard KRRC badge throughout the war ... but as you say, the Kitchener Service battalions were issued with whatever was available. 12/KRRC didn't even have uniforms for several months.

Audax thinks the CLB badge did not appear until 1917 when the CLB Cadets were officially recognised by the Army Office as a cadet force. 16/KRRC were raised as the KRRC's Church Lads Brigade battalion a lot earlier than that - wouldn't it be more likely that their badge design would have been sorted out when they were raised, and not left until 1917, even if shortages meant they couldn't issue it?

Anyway you've re-introduced enough doubt for me to edit the other topic so as to re-open the 16/KRRC CLB or standard KRRC cap badge debate again... just not now, as I'm still at work & I wanna go 'ome Also I was trying to have that topic be the place for KRRC cap badge debate and now it's spilled over into this general one!

We'll get to the bottom of this CLB cap badge problem yet! Maybe when I go and visit Major Grey at the RGJ Museum in the autumn - LOL!

Cheers!

Mark

[max7474]

Mark

All things considered I think that Cox's book is probably incorrect and the Cadets badge was not worn by the 16th Bn. All the evidence does seem to contradict Cox's identification of it.

Alan

[yellow]

Sadly my knowledge of the 16th is limited but I always thought that by 1911 the Church Lads Brigade had the largest Cadet force in the UK, a total of 30,000 members.

The badge they worn by the Cadet Force, was the cadet force badge. The cadet force was still running during WW1 and consisted of those boys who were not old enough for military service. Upon reaching the age of service they would leave the cadets and join a regiment.

It is often an incorrect assumption that all men that formed the 16th in 1914 were all members of the cadets, many were in fact past members of that cadet force.

I would put the the Cadet force badge found at Gallipoli as a chance find, probably dropped by a former member of the CLB cadets who joined another Battalion upon the outbreak of the war or maybe even earlier.

[MBrockway]

Mark

All things considered I think that Cox's book is probably incorrect and the Cadets badge was not worn by the 16th Bn. All the evidence does seem to contradict Cox's identification of it.

Alan

Alan,

I think it's quite finely balanced to be honest. I'm planning on a bit of a tour 'down sarf' in the autumn - Winchester for the RGJ/KRRC Museum; London for NA at Kew (& a search for my grandfather's Service Records - wish me luck ) and maybe for Remembrance Day; and then possibly over to F&F for Cambrai 90th anniversary. My target is to have found out more on my GF's transfer and his spells back in Blighty with wounds by then. That'll give me more idea about whether he was still in 12/KRRC in Nov 1917 and if so, whether he was at the Front for the battle or still in hospital back in England.

I will take some of these pictures down to Winchester with me & see if the Museum can put us right about the 16/KRRC cap badge.

Cheers,

Mark

[rap1943]

Hi Mark

Just wondered if you've seen the document at the following link?

http://www.clcgb.org.uk/Looking%20Back.pdf

Cheers

Bob

[MBrockway]

Hi Mark

Just wondered if you've seen the document at the following link?

http://www.clcgb.org.uk/Looking%20Back.pdf

Cheers

Bob

Yep! I think Alan (max7474) put the link in our KRRC Cap Badge topic

This is the original Church Lads Brigade badge:

- I think Audax uses a picture of a real one of these as his Avatar.

[Audax: I'll happily add your badge into the "gallery" in the main post like I have done for Bob's father's badge - send me a PM]

In 1911 the War Office officially recognised the CLB as cadets and they formally became part of the Territorial Cadet Force. Presumably still using this original badge.

In 1914, the 16th Battalion of the KRRC was raised from current and former CLB members. As far as we can tell, this was under the standard KRRC badge. Unlike my grandfather, who was transferred into the battalion later in the War, your father, Rfn Frederick Pearson, enlisted straight into 16/KRRC. Presumably therefore, he must have had a connection with the CLB?

In 1917, the CLB Cadets as an organisation decided to affiliate themselves to the KRRC. At this point and up until 1930, the CLB Cadets switched to the new badge based on that of the KRRC:

which is Badge D over in our KRRC Cap Badge topic.

As far as we can tell , this badge did not exist before 1917, and was only worn officially by the CLB Cadets back in Blighty, who by now were heavily involved in war work on the Home Front and wearing a khaki Army cadet uniform.

Some examples of this KRRC-style badge have been found on The Somme and at Gallipoli, but these were probably being carried as personal items and not worn as service dress. As a large, nationally-based cadet force the CLB Cadets fed many former members into all regiments in the Army, in the same way as today's cadets. Some of these would have joined the KRRC.

On balance, I think we're agreed that 16/KRRC never wore this badge.

Cheers,

Mark

[Mick D]

I've quickly read all the previous posts and can add a comment from my own experience.

I used to collect WW2 German armour insignia, but due to the increasing value, a similar rise in fakes occurred.

There was also the real risk of fakes entering via legitimate dealers who had been duped. The end result was fakes being used as examples of genuines badges!!

Mick D

[Graeme Fisher]

You'd have thought that a forum such as this would throw up a couple of knowledgable badge dealers. Proper ones.

But no.

Instead, we have bits of dodgy information being bantered back and forth as fact.

How many of you bought another cap badge in the NAAFI? And was it identical to the one you were issued with? No. So you bought a fake.

Over the last century, cap badges were manufactured by dozens and dozens of manufacturers, in batches according to the needs of the military. Someone says 'we've run out of Leeds Pals badges' and someone sent an order to an approved contractor for a thousand or five gross or whatever. And Johnny Contractor would knock 'em out similar to the sealed pattern.

Go to any militaria fair with a good selection of dealers and examine every Essex Regiment badge you see. Tell me how many variants you've seen, and I'll bet it's ten. Of which six are fakes. But you prove it.

Go to a militaria fair and ask a dealer of his opinion on another dealer's stock, and you're getting nearer the truth.

Unless you spend years handling badges, talking to experts, learning the good from the bad, you're just guessing. I've bought stuff from supposedly respected dealers that wasn't even a year old. Not half a mile from me, a company made a few bob using old patterns and a buffing wheel to produce 'genuine' Yeomanry badges at fifteen or twenty quid a go, years of bull so they must be real, old soldiers wouldn't let their badge go dull cos they'd be on a charge, got to be real.

If you buy off ebay, you'll get stung most of the time. Go to fairs, get to know the experts and the genuine dealers.

Caveat emptor.

Graeme

[pbrydon]

When I first started to collect to the Kings Liverpool Regt seriously about 40 years ago, to find a single example of the Liverpool Scottish (10th Kings ) cap badge was very difficult. I remember an antique/junk shop in St.Helens with an example in the window but when I went inside I was told( to my disappopintment ) that the badge was not for sale.

Over the years many Liverpool Scotish badges have appeared on the market which might not be surprising as many veterans died and their belongings have been sold,but today most dealers will have an example on their lists and you will find examples at most Arms Fairs,one explanation is obvious.

With regard to the bi metal version of this badge,it is mentioned by Bloomer ( Scottish Regimental Badges ).Cox ( Military Badges ) and in an article by J.B. Peters in the M.H.S. Bulletin of November 1968. I used to have a nice example I bought from a well known author some time ago,but the Curator of the Liverpool Scottish Museum says that bi metal badges are spurious. So even refernces in books have to taken with some caution.

I am sure others will have further examples to those already refered to.

So as Graeme says buyer beware

P.B.

[max7474]

I have been to many militaria fairs and I constantly see dodgy stock in dealers stalls - it is not just ebay that is full of dodgy dealers and fairs are even more dangerous as the prices are higher! Judge every badge on what you are happy with and don't take anything for granted would be my advice.

As an aside many of the '10th' Liverpools badges you see for sale are modern ones made for the Liverpool Scottish Platoon of A Coy, the Kings and Cheshire Regt (v) who re-adopted the old badge in 1999. These are also in w/m but has 3 w/m lugs where as the older type had 2 copper ones.

Alan

[pbrydon]

Just to add a bit of trivia to the last post,The Liverpool Scottish readopted the old cap badge of the 10th Kings in 1992. The regiment were hoping to produce a book on their history,insignia etc to mark their centenary but unfortunatly it never came about.

The then Hon. Secretary of the Museum Trust produced a list of insignia worn by the "Scottish" throughout its existance. This showed 6 issues of bonnet badges in the period 1992 -1998 of which 5 had the 3 lugs .I think the bottom lug was there to "hold" the bottom of the blue hackle.

4 of the badges were in white metal and 2 were described as silver and one as having a high polish silver finish.4 of the issues were marked with the makers initials LB&BCo.One of the issues was I think an officers hall marked example which must be very scarce.

Most of the post 1992 white metal examples I have seen have almost dull finish , but the examples I have have copper lugs.

P.B.

[regtcollector]

Steve is indeed right. Just because someone or a unit wore a badge does not mean it had exclsuive use. TA Bns wore regular pattern badges in place of their own blank scroll etc versions as those were the only ones available or even wore redundant units badges! Pre 1908 VB were brought out of store and issued to some Kitchener Bns due to shortages. I remain open minded as to whether the 16 Bn wore the CLB badge or not. Certainly after the losses of 1916 the new replacements would have had the KRRC badge shown earlier but that does not disprove Cox and the first members may well have had the CLB badge made for them when they formed. As mentioned earlier I did come across a 'diggers' website with the remnants of a CLB badge dug from the Somme. Unfortunately i cannot find it again!

Alan

Hi Alan, if my memory serves me right,there is a church lads badge dug up on the somme by John Laffin which appeared in his book "digging up the diggers war",i have also seen hate belts with church lads badges or buttons attached but these could also have been carried as lucky charms. Kitcheners army soldiers would certainly have worn them and i doubt that the average soldier would have just thrown them out when he recieved army issue badges and buttons. Great war photos show that within battalions there were quite often a number of variations on the standard dress. Cheers ian

[Black Watch]

A lot of interesting and helpful replies. Thanks all

Another question - Is it legal to make copies of badges?

Neil

[max7474]

Of course - unfortunately judging by the number of fraudsters around it seems not to be illegal to sell them as the genuine article though! It would be illegal if you forged the maker's mark which may be why the copies maker's marks have subtle differences, use made-up companies or firms that no longer exist.

alan

[MBrockway]

Hi Alan, if my memory serves me right,there is a church lads badge dug up on the somme by John Laffin which appeared in his book "digging up the diggers war",i have also seen hate belts with church lads badges or buttons attached but these could also have been carried as lucky charms. Kitcheners army soldiers would certainly have worn them and i doubt that the average soldier would have just thrown them out when he recieved army issue badges and buttons. Great war photos show that within battalions there were quite often a number of variations on the standard dress. Cheers ian

Do we know whether what was dug up by John Laffin was the first, or the second, of the two badges in the CLB badge examples post higher up this Topic?

It'd be great if there was a picture in his book! Anyone got access to it?

Of course, even though it was found on the Somme, that doesn't necessarily mean it was lost in 1916, so that would still not resolve whether the KRRC-style badge was in use before 1917

Cheers,

Mark

[mtrpltpara]

The fake's slider is often (but not always) JR Gaunt.London marked whereas the correct ones were always blank.

Alan

I was in touch by email with a Warwicks collector who said he had several genuine Birm badges on loops, with only a couple on sliders, anyone know anything about the Birm. Battalions having badges with loops? I have never been able to find a 2nd Batt. badge, are they the most rare?

Bill.