L/Cpl John Brockway, R/6479, 12th & 16th KRRC

[MBrockway]

Folks,
Below is a picture of my grandfather, John Brockway, R/6479 of the King's Royal Rifle Corps.

Apologies for the quality - it is a scan of a photocopy, and I have reduced the resolution still further to cheer up Mr. Baker

As you can see, he's wearing a standard Field Service Tunic with rifle patches at the shoulders; the stiff crowned Field Service Cap with a KRRC cap badge; the standard darkened bugle Rifles buttons; a 1914 Pattern leather belt with snake clasp; Lance Corporal stripe in three places (though it's impossible to tell if they are edged in KRRC scarlet); and is sporting a rather dapper walking stick!

I have a number of Qs for the GWF Pals ...

Firstly, the KRRC cap badge does not seem to be quite standard. Here's a blow up at the best resolution I can get at the moment:

A few things leap out at me:

• it doesn't seem to be darkened
• I cannot see a red felt backing
• I cannot see the battle honours in the arms of the maltese cross

Now (thanks to 'shinglma') we know from his BW&VM Medal Roll that he was originally in the 12th Battalion, but at some point he transferred to the 16th Battalion (Church Lad's Brigade) .

12/KRRC would have worn the standard KRRC cap badge, but I believe that 16/KRRC used a plainer version with no battle honours and with "Fight the Good Fight" rather than "Celer et Audax" (??) [I'm very unsure of this - this badge may have only been used by the CLB Cadets and not 16/KRRC.]

However I've also read that some of the KRRC TF units used a less ornate cap badge, and also that sometimes plainer badges were issued simply due to austerity measures.

What do the Pals think of this badge here? Could be a 16/KRRC badge?


I also have some Qs about the Lance-Corporal stripes: can anyone tell me what the inverted stripe at his left cuff signifies?

There's also a hint of another badge seen end-on just below that stripe. Here's a blow-up:

Can the Pals give any ideas what that might be?

He was wounded several times, was there a wounds badge? Is it more likely some sort of specialist or proficiency badge?

Also what are people's thoughts on the walking cane?

Lastly is there anyway of dating the photo from the uniform & insignia etc.? If you all do think he's wearing a CLB badge, then a rough date will help me get an idea of when he transferred, which will help massively with the research into his movements.

... and has anyone spotted anything else of interest I've missed?

Incidentally, I have another topic in the Soldiers Forum covering my GF in much more detail.
Cheers,
Mark

PS I'm trying to get a better resolution scan of the photocopy, but I'm having to negotiate through a tangled chain of various distant relatives!

[trenchtrotter]

The inverted stripe is a good conduct stripe. There is a verticle wound stripe below this running just below the apex of the chevron.

TT

[Stebie9173]

The Good Conduct Stripe was awarded exactly two years after enlistment provided that he had good conduct for those two years (or undetected bad conduct!)

Steve.

[MBrockway]

The Good Conduct Stripe was awarded exactly two years after enlistment provided that he had good conduct for those two years (or undetected bad conduct!)

Steve.

Thanks Steve,

Elsewhere the Pals reckoned from the range of his Regimental Service No that he probably enlisted in early November 1914, so that rather neatly dates the photograph to after November 1916 (and certainly no earlier than September 1916 ... and anyway both 12/KRRC and 16/KRRC were probably too busy in September 1916 to get studio portraits done! )

It also tells us he had already been wounded at that point.

Cheers,

Mark

[Audax]

"12/KRRC would have worn the standard KRRC cap badge, but I believe that 16/KRRC used a plainer version with no battle honours and with "Fight the Good Fight" rather than "Celer et Audax" (??) [i'm very unsure of this - this badge may have only been used by the CLB Cadets and not 16/KRRC.]"

The KRRC 'Fight the Good Fight' Cap badge was only worn by C.L.B. Cadets. The C.L.B. was the biggest single component of the Cadet Force. The KRRC Cadet badge was not introduced until 1917.

[MBrockway]

"12/KRRC would have worn the standard KRRC cap badge, but I believe that 16/KRRC used a plainer version with no battle honours and with "Fight the Good Fight" rather than "Celer et Audax" (??) [i'm very unsure of this - this badge may have only been used by the CLB Cadets and not 16/KRRC.]"

The KRRC 'Fight the Good Fight' Cap badge was only worn by C.L.B. Cadets. The C.L.B. was the biggest single component of the Cadet Force. The KRRC Cadet badge was not introduced until 1917.

Thanks Audax.

Did the 16th Battalion have a cap badge different from the other Service Battalions in another way then? Maybe with Celer et Audax or Peninsula but empty cross arms?

There are various older Topics on this, but they sometimes contradict and unfortunately most of the attached pictures have disappeared.

I think one thread mentioned finding a damaged CLB Cadet cap badge during a Somme battlefield walk. That suggests the cadet badge was worn in the field. If so, then by who? Former members of the CLB Cadets who had been drafted into the main KRRC Battalions? Or were the CLB cadets present on the battlefield as cadets in the same way as the KRRC 1st Cadet Battalion were present as volunteers in the Boer War (where several were killed in action leading to the unit being the only cadet unit entitled to a Battle Honour).

Please be patient .. I'm still confused!

Do you think the cap badge my GF is wearing is the standard KRRC one? It's hard to see even a hint of the battle honours in the arms of the maltese cross, not the felt backing.

I'll put some KRRC cap badge examples into another post when I get a minute.

Cheers,

Mark

[Steven Broomfield]

I'd say it's a standard KRRC cap badge - the light is shining on it, and it is 9as you say) an imperfect scan. My money would be on a normal 60th Rifles (KRRC) badge.

[MBrockway]

I promised above I'd post some pictures of KRRC cap badges. Before I start though, I'll say upfront that I am by no means a cap badge expert. These are just examples of cap badges I have accumulated to help with my GF's research. Some are from eBay lots, some are from elsewhere here on the GWF, and some are from general surfing the Net.

If I make any howlers, please bear with me - I'm trusting the Pals will correct my mistakes!

I'll then edit this original post until everyone's happy and then maybe put it all into another standalone KRRC Cap Badge Topic which could be useful generally. The edits are tagged in red.

Anyway, here goes:

A1. - see also A4. Badge of Rfn F Pearson, 'B' Coy, 16/KRRC.

This is the standard KRRC WW1 badge with scarlet felt backing, king's crown, Celer et Audax motto below the crown, pierced centre boss, battle honours in the cross arms (incl. South Africa) [sorry it's a bit blurry]. This example has also lost a lot of its blackening.

Here's one being worn at the KRRC 250th Anniversary celebrations - presumably from the RGJ Museum collection:

A2.

... and here's a period photo of it again being worn on the soft trench cap with the felt clearly visible:

A3.

B.

This is the same as A1, except the battle honours are missing from the cross arms, and the centre boss is solid. I understand this badge was used by volunteer militia units attached to the KRRC.

I am not sure about that though, and to be honest, I don't even know if this badge is WW1 vintage! max7474 adds: "(it) could well be a fake badge created for the collectors market."

I have also heard that this badge may have been used as a cheaper mass-produced version of the standard badge - again though, not from an authoritative source. This theory has been discounted by max7474: "Any WW1 economy badge would be non-voided or even all brass with no blacking (both exist) as this shortens manufacturing process. Creating a new die with no honours as an economy measure would be silly as this would take more time than using the old one and then not voiding/painting the badge."

C1. C2.

This is similar to B except the motto is missing, the centre boss is pierced, there are single lions passant in the "armpits" of the cross arms, and the Maltese cross has rounded balls on the points. I have no idea what this badge was used for! However this is also the closest match shape-wise to the badge my GF is wearing. You can't see the detail but there does not seem to be enough space between the crown and the cross on his badge for the motto:

GF.

D.

This is the Church Lad's Brigade Cadets badge. There are no battle honours. It has "C.L.B" in the upper arm of the cross and "CADETS" in the lower arm. Instead of Celer et Audax, the motto is Fight the Good Fight. As Audax has said earlier: "the KRRC 'Fight the Good Fight' Cap badge was only worn by C.L.B. Cadets. The C.L.B. was the biggest single component of the Cadet Force." Audax adds: " ... the CLB as a whole organisation did not become affiliated until the issue of Army Order 128 of 1917. It was after this that the CLB Cadets badge was introduced. The Brigade magazine of September 1917 mentions that KRRC (Cadet) badge had been adopted and goes on to state 'is one that our lads may rejoice'."

I understand that the CLB Cadets did a lot of war work in Blighty, as runners in depots and guarding reservoirs etc. I'm not sure if they were in France & Flanders though - see Posts #6 and #12.

This from Audax: "The fact that a KRRC CLB Cadet badge was found in France (see Post #6) can only be seen as indication that its owner had been a member of the CLB back home. 0ver 250,000 ex CLB members served in HM Forces during WWI." And: "Interestingly, a Brass CLB Badge (pre cadets) was found by Battlefield Archaelogists at Gallipoli. The KRRs did not serve there - but many ex CLB members did."

Contrary to various authorities I've seen, this badge was definitely not worn by the 16th (Service) Battalion (Church Lad's Brigade), Here's Chapter & Verse on this from Audax: "Cox is wrong in his book on Badges of the Empire to indicate that the KRRC CLB Cadets badge was worn by the 16th (Service) Battalion (CLB), KRRC. ... 16th (S) KRRC wore exactly the same badge as the Regular (from me: & the other Service ..) Battalions of the KRRC. .... Only a small percentage of [over 250,000 ex CLB members .. in HM Forces] .. would have served with 16th (Service) Battalion (CLB), KRRC. In fact after 15th July 1916 it ceased to be a purely CLB Battalion as drafts came from other KRRC Battalions to replace those riflemen who became casualties at HIGH WOOD [addition from me: including at some stage, my grandfather, who as far as I know, had no connection to the CLB.]."

Further corroboration comes from rap1943: "My father's cap badge is my avatar. ... it is the standard badge with the red felt. He served throughout the war in the 16th Battalion KRRC."

Bob (rap1943) has kindly let me post a larger image of his father's badge here.

E.

This is the WW2 version of the standard KRRC badge but missing its scarlet felt backing. The centre boss is solid and it may actually be plastic. No WW1 Honours were added to the the cross arms.

Some of these examples probably have the wrong sliders etc. for the period, but I'm mainly aiming to get the shapes categorised for the general researcher rather than the collector/expert.

There you go, I'm sure there's loads of schoolboy howlers in there ... now it's up to the Pals to put me right!

Cheers,

Mark

PS Message to Chris Baker: I'll compress the filesizes of these images & re-upload them when I get a couple of hours spare to do battle with my graphics software!

[max7474]

This is the CLB website.

http://www.clcgb.org.uk/Looking%20Back.pdf

The CLB badge is incorrectly shown in Reginald Coxes book on badges of the British Empire as being from the 16th Bn KRRC. Other cap badge works do not mention it.

The badge in the photo is so indistinct that it could be either of them.

Badge E appears to be the WW2 plastic economy version.

Badge B with the blank arms has been the subject of much discussion elsewhere as could well be a fake badge created for the collectors market. The KRRC did not have volunteer bns as such as the 28 Bns of the London Regt (actaully 26 plus the HAC and the Inns of Court OTC) covered their recruiting grounds. Any WW1 economy badge would be non-voided or even all brass with no blacking (both exist) as this shortens manufacturing process. Creating a new die with no honours as an economy measure would be silly as this would take more time than using the old one and then not voiding/painting the badge.

Alan

[MBrockway]

Badge B with the blank arms has been the subject of much discussion elsewhere as could well be a fake badge created for the collectors market. The KRRC did not have volunteer bns as such as the 28 Bns of the London Regt (actaully 26 plus the HAC and the Inns of Court OTC) covered their recruiting grounds. Any WW1 economy badge would be non-voided or even all brass with no blacking (both exist) as this shortens manufacturing process. Creating a new die with no honours as an economy measure would be silly as this would take more time than using the old one and then not voiding/painting the badge.

Alan

Great info - thanks Alan.

On Badge B:

• What you say about the WW1 economy badge theory all makes excellent sense, so you've convinced me on that bit!
• Weren't some of those London Regiment volunteer battalions attached to the KRRC (e.g. Victoria Rifles, Civil Service Rifles etc?) until the TF was organised in 1908? Some of these (Queen's Westminsters etc) were then re-affiliated back to the KRRC between the wars (unsure of dates here .. and I'm in the office away from my books ). The Victorian period units would of course have had the Queen Victoria crown. Is it possible the inter-war period units used Badge B?

Cheers,

Mark

[MBrockway]

The badge in the photo is so indistinct that it could be either of them.

Over the weekend I'm seeing the copy that was scanned and am hoping that scanning it again at a higher resolution will give us more detail

[Audax]

Cox is wrong in his book on Badges of the Empire to indicate that the KRRC CLB Cadets badge was worn by the 16th (Service) Battalion KRRC (CLB). This Battalion was raised in September 1914. It went to France on 15th November 1915. 16th (S) KRRC wore exactly the same badge as the Regular Battalions of the

KRRC. The fact that a KRRC CLB Cadet badge was found in France can only be seen as indication that its owner had been a member of the CLB back home. 0ver 250,000 ex CLB members served in HM Forces during WWI. Only a small percentage of these would have served with 16th (S) KRRC (S). In fact after 15th July 1916 it ceased to be a purely CLB Battalion as drafts came from other KRRC Battalions to replace those riflemen who became casualties at HIGH WOOD.

Lyn Macdonald's book 'Somme' has a fine photographic plate of a group of Riflemen from 16 KRRC (CLB) between pages 150-151.

Historian Peter Liddle's father served with 16 KRRC and was taken prisoner on 23rd April 1917.

Secondly, the CLB as a whole organisation did not become affiliated until the issue of Army Order 128 of 1917. It was after this that the CLB Cadets badge was introduced. The Brigade magazine of September 1917 mentions that KRRC (Cadet) badge had been adopted and goes on to state 'is one that our lads may rejoice'.

Interestingly, a Brass CLB Badge (pre cadets) was found by Battlefield Archaelogists at Gallipoli. The KRRs did not serve there - but many ex CLB members did.

[MBrockway]

The inverted stripe is a good conduct stripe. There is a verticle wound stripe below this running just below the apex of the chevron.

TT

Thanks TT!

Here's a picture of another (non-KRRC) soldier that shows this more clearly:

Presumably you didn't get additional stripes if you were wounded again? Family legend has my GF returned to Blighty with wounds between 3 and 5 times ... depending on who you hear the legend from

Mark

[rap1943]

Mark

My father's cap badge is my avatar. If you look close you will see that it is the standard badge with the red felt. He served throughout the war in the 16th Battalion KRRC.

Bob

[Ali Hollington]

I think additional wounds stripes could be awarded, dependant on the wound qualifiying as such.

Regards

Ali

[Stebie9173]

A wound stripe was awarded for each occasion wounded.

A man shot in the arm and leg by a machine-gun would receive one wound stripe, as would a man charging a trench who was shot and then later bayonetted, for example.

If the same man was wounded again a couple of months later then he would receive another stripe. As to when the "clock" reset itself, I don't know...

An officer in the unit I research received 5 wound stripes for 7 wounds. The legend was that the Regimental Aid post filled out a wound card for him before each battle and just left a space to fill in the wound details! Unfortunately, having survived the war, he volunteered to go to North Russia and was blown up by a Bolshevik grenade.

Steve.

[max7474]

Great info - thanks Alan.

On Badge B:

• What you say about the WW1 economy badge theory all makes excellent sense, so you've convinced me on that bit!
• Weren't some of those London Regiment volunteer battalions attached to the KRRC (e.g. Victoria Rifles, Civil Service Rifles etc?) until the TF was organised in 1908? Some of these (Queen's Westminsters etc) were then re-affiliated back to the KRRC between the wars (unsure of dates here .. and I'm in the office away from my books ). The Victorian period units would of course have had the Queen Victoria crown. Is it possible the inter-war period units used Badge B?

Cheers,

Mark

Mark,

I think the London regts kept their original badges up to the TA reorganisations of 1937 (less the 8th who adopted the 7th Bn's badge on amalgamation in 1921 and the 15/16th who had a new design based on the 16th cross with the POW Feathers of the 15th added. The 25 Cyclists disappeared as they were converted to Signallers.) The linkage to the KRRC and RB etc happened in 1937 when the 17th Tower Hamlet Rifles, the 18th London Irish and the 12th Rangers adopted new badges of similiar design to the RB, RUR and KRRC respectively. Of interest is that the post 37 second Bns often wore the standard regt badge rather than a London regt one.

Another oddity was that the 10th Bn (Hackney Rifles) took on the Berkshire Regt badge in 1937 and ceased wearing their own one, as the Berkshires were the nearest Regt without a TA Bn and so the War Office thought that they were the best regular regt to affiliate the 10th Bn to! I have a pamphlet printed in 1941 with all the cap badges in use at the time and it is an interesting snap-shot as it includes a page on the London regts including the converted regts wearing RA and other corps badges. Worthy of note is that a significant number of Yeomanry regt badges are not in it as they were RA and RE wearing those badges and did not re-adopt the Yeomanry badges until later in the war.

The blank arms version is not likely to be inter-war but one long-shot possibility is that it was 1901 -08 before the creation of the TF.

Interesting to see that Cox's book seems to have got it wrong about the KRRC badge - his book is prone to errors though as some of the badges shown are of questionable authenticity.

Alan

[MBrockway]

Mark

My father's cap badge is my avatar. If you look close you will see that it is the standard badge with the red felt. He served throughout the war in the 16th Battalion KRRC.

Bob

Bob has very kindly agreed to allow me to post a larger image of his father's cap badge:

A4.

Badge belonging to Rfn Frederick Pearson C/516, 'B' Coy, 16th Battalion (Church Lads Brigade) KRRC

Bob's father served in 16/KRRC throughout the war and this is his actual cap badge. As you can see, it's the same as the standard badge A1 in the earlier post. I think we can now finally put to rest those false trails about the 16th (CLB) battalion wearing the Church Lads Brigade Cadets badge D or any variant thereof.

Incidentally Bob tells me that his father used to say the marks on the top arm of the cross were mud from the Front, though he reckons it might also have been to hold him and his brother back from removing the blackening by over zealous cleaning.

You're only allowed so much space per post, so I couldn't post this in the main cap badge post! I'll put in a link down to here instead.

Cheers,

Mark

[MBrockway]

Over the weekend I'm seeing the copy that was scanned and am hoping that scanning it again at a higher resolution will give us more detail

Have managed to get some new scans as very high resolution, but they're now so large that I can't open them in my graphics package to crop them!

The clarity is only slightly better unfortunately. I'll plug away until I have something worth posting. Watch this space.

Cheers,

Mark

[MBrockway]

I think we can now finally put to rest those false trails about the 16th (CLB) battalion wearing the Church Lads Brigade Cadets badge D or any variant thereof.

Spoke too soon ... Alan (max7474) has raised some strong counter arguments on this debate in another Topic, which I will try and summarise back into this Topic when I get a chance!

Cheers,

Mark

[7t2ndswinger]

Great info - thanks Alan.

On Badge B:

• What you say about the WW1 economy badge theory all makes excellent sense, so you've convinced me on that bit!
• Weren't some of those London Regiment volunteer battalions attached to the KRRC (e.g. Victoria Rifles, Civil Service Rifles etc?) until the TF was organised in 1908? Some of these (Queen's Westminsters etc) were then re-affiliated back to the KRRC between the wars (unsure of dates here .. and I'm in the office away from my books ). The Victorian period units would of course have had the Queen Victoria crown. Is it possible the inter-war period units used Badge B?

Cheers,

Mark

Personally I think the blank cross arms version is a militia badge. The Rifle Brigade had a similar one and the KRRC definently had a QVC version. Here are the militia units and all but one existed past 1902 could have worn this badge.

Militia and Special Reserve:

5th Battalion (Huntingdonshire Rifles) [1881-1953]

6th Battalion (Royal Flint Rifles) [1881-1889]

6th Battalion [1908-1953]

7th Battalion (Edmonton Royal Rifles or 2nd Regiment of Middlesex Militia ) [1881-1908]

8th Battalion (Carlow Rifles Regiment of Militia ) [1881-1908]

9th Battalion (North Cork Rifles) [1881-1908]

Keith

[MBrockway]

This is the CLB website.

http://www.clcgb.org.uk/Looking%20Back.pdf

I was led to believe that the Bn raised from former CLB members wore the badge originally and it was later adopted by the CLB proper in 1917. The CLB badge is shown in Reginald Coxes book on badges of the British Empire as being from the 16th Bn KRRC. Other cap badge works do not mention it.

The badge in the photo is so indistinct that it could be either of them.

Badge E appears to be the WW2 plastic economy version.

Badge B with the blank arms has been the subject of much discussion elsewhere as could well be a fake badge created for the collectors market. The KRRC did not have volunteer bns as such as the 28 Bns of the London Regt (actaully 26 plus the HAC and the Inns of Court OTC) covered their recruiting grounds. Any WW1 economy badge would be non-voided or even all brass with no blacking (both exist) as this shortens manufacturing process. Creating a new die with no honours as an economy measure would be silly as this would take more time than using the old one and then not voiding/painting the badge.

Alan

Pals,

You will find a lot of excellent further detail about the Church Lads Brigade and their home service war work in this Topic:

Information sought on Rank, Cadet Major

Cheers,

Mark

[oxlade134]

Very Late to this topic I know but confused by the claim in this posting that 16th KRRC never wore the CLB cap badge in WW1 this photograph (original from Flickr) is a bit of a puzzle then to me

https://plus.google.com/photos/103899791023838964607/albums/5835711112945768913/5911950370030967602?pid=5911950370030967602&oid=103899791023838964607

[oxlade134]

Original is at Flickr under title "WW1 Church lads brigade Sergeant armourer"

[MBrockway]

Very Late to this topic I know but confused by the claim in this posting that 16th KRRC never wore the CLB cap badge in WW1 this photograph (original from Flickr) is a bit of a puzzle then to me

MBrockway EDIT - working hyperlink: http://www.flickr.co...N04/6674928073/

What makes you think this Sjt Armourer is in 16/KRRC? The CLB Cadets switched to khaki SD during the war and the photo is annotated "WW1 Church lads brigade Sergeant armourer". No mention of 16/KRRC.