Black Watch Posted 12 June , 2007 Share Posted 12 June , 2007 Anyone recommend a book on WW1 cap badges? I'm fascinated by them, but I never know whether the ones on E-bay are genuine or not. (I suspect a lot of them aren't) but I'd also like to be able to spot the ones that are from different eras. Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralphjd Posted 12 June , 2007 Share Posted 12 June , 2007 Anyone recommend a book on WW1 cap badges? I'm fascinated by them, but I never know whether the ones on E-bay are genuine or not. (I suspect a lot of them aren't) but I'd also like to be able to spot the ones that are from different eras. Neil THE CAP BADGE COLLECTORS BIBLE IS KIPLING and KING VOLUME I HEAD-DRESS BADGES OF THE BRITISH ARMY up to the end of the Great War ISBN 0 584 10947 4 it will cost you about £60 new.Volume 2 is from 1919 to date. MILITARY BADGE COLLECTING by the late JOHN GAYLOR ISBN 0-85052-524-1 is a very good book about £20 . MILITARY BADGES OF THE BRITISH EMPIRE by REGINALD H W COX good book a lot of drawn rather than actual photos of badges original cost £45 mine cost nothing like that. You can only "feel" if a badge is genuine by actually having hold of it, never bought one off E-bay and I have about 600 bought at military fairs and from a genuine dealer in Hampshire. Good hunting Regards Ralph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Watch Posted 12 June , 2007 Author Share Posted 12 June , 2007 Thanks for that Ralph, I'll look out for these. Can u explain any more about "the feel" ? I went to an auction recently and one guy was rifling through a tray saying fake, fake, fake, that ones good, fake etc. but wouldn't tell me how he knew . Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralphjd Posted 12 June , 2007 Share Posted 12 June , 2007 Thanks for that Ralph, I'll look out for these. Can u explain any more about "the feel" ? I went to an auction recently and one guy was rifling through a tray saying fake, fake, fake, that ones good, fake etc. but wouldn't tell me how he knew . Neil Neil, Where to begin? fakes tend to have sharp details, raised points, that sort of thing older badges feel smooth, a bit worn not shiny on the reverse, dull looking. Best thing is get a good dealer lew.shotton@virgin.net never knowingly sells re-strikes (badges made in the recent past purporting to be genuine ) have spent unknown £ with him over the years. Arthur Kiplings book is a must if you want to collect badges, it describes the badge, has its picture, tells which metals they were made from, brass. silver, bronze etc If you wish I can speak to my friend who works in book shop (not Smiths or Boots or Waterstones ) to see if he can obtain a copy, one can only ask cant one. Ralph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Watch Posted 13 June , 2007 Author Share Posted 13 June , 2007 Thanks again Ralph. There are copies of the last 2 books you mentioned on ebay, but with a few days to go on em. Ill see what prices they get to. Think I'll leave the Kipling one till birthday . Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 13 June , 2007 Share Posted 13 June , 2007 John Gaylor's book Collecting Military Badges is the best bet for beginners as it is a good read and has lots of pictures. K&K is more comprehensive but is very expensive and a not a good read. Gaylor is still in print and can be found on Amazon for a tenner. Ebay cap badges are 95%-98% fakes and repros. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralphjd Posted 13 June , 2007 Share Posted 13 June , 2007 Would agree with all Max says I didnt obtain my K & K till after John Gaylors book also my first book on the subject was given to me, since bought a more updated one and that was BADGES OF THE BRITISH ARMY 1820 to the present by F WILKINSON ISBN 1-85409-135-2 £12 99 a neat little book you can slip into your pocket for fairs etc. Ralph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 13 June , 2007 Share Posted 13 June , 2007 Wilkinsons book is invaluable as, although it has a few errors in it and does not show that many badges, it shows high quality photgraphs in enought detail to be of real help when spotting genuine badges compared to fakes. Both Gaylor and K&K have pictures with a quality that it enough to identify the badge type but not the fine detail required to spot repros with. It does have a few WW1 unit badges but a lot of WW2 and post war ones as well. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbrydon Posted 13 June , 2007 Share Posted 13 June , 2007 With regard to your comment that you dont know if the badges on E bay are genuine or not. May I make the following comments 1) You wont get a bargain very often on E bay,there must be thousands,if not hundreds of thousands of experienced collectors keeping an eye on what is for sale. 2) It might be better ( as I think has already been advised ) to buy from a dealer with a reputation and offering a money back guarantee. It might cost more but at least you will have some comeback 3) if you want to bid on E bay,dont bid for any vendor without 100% feedback, dont bid for anything from a vendor who describes the badge as unknown ( especially when has dozens of other badges for sale ) and dont bid on any items from a vendor who hides behind the source of the badges as a gurantee of their originality. 4) Go to as many militaria fairs as you can, join a collectors society, and visit museums to see the quality of badges in their collections and talk to established collectors And if that dosnt put you off GOOD LUCK P.B. Caveat Emptor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbrydon Posted 13 June , 2007 Share Posted 13 June , 2007 On reflection,instead of hundreds of thousands, I should have said most serious collectors ( and dealers ) P.B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Watch Posted 13 June , 2007 Author Share Posted 13 June , 2007 Thanks all, some great suggestions and advice there. Very interesting PB. I think my main problem will be finding Militaria fairs close to home. So far I've been buying Badges to match my Family medals, so originals aren't so crucial, as long as they are the right period. But now I've kinda got hooked and really need to learn more. Neil PS anyone know of any online collectors societies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 13 June , 2007 Share Posted 13 June , 2007 Try the British badges section on www.milcol.net. There are some superb posts in there about identifying badges. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbrydon Posted 13 June , 2007 Share Posted 13 June , 2007 I dont know about on line societies but the main collectors societys are the Military Historical Society founded in 1950 and Crown Imperial ( orginally a breakaway group from the M.H.S founded to try and do something about the number of restrikes which were being sold as genuine badges ) P.B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralphjd Posted 13 June , 2007 Share Posted 13 June , 2007 With regard to your comment that you dont know if the badges on E bay are genuine or not. May I make the following comments 1) You wont get a bargain very often on E bay,there must be thousands,if not hundreds of thousands of experienced collectors keeping an eye on what is for sale. 2) It might be better ( as I think has already been advised ) to buy from a dealer with a reputation and offering a money back guarantee. It might cost more but at least you will have some comeback 3) if you want to bid on E bay,dont bid for any vendor without 100% feedback, dont bid for anything from a vendor who describes the badge as unknown ( especially when has dozens of other badges for sale ) and dont bid on any items from a vendor who hides behind the source of the badges as a gurantee of their originality. 4) Go to as many militaria fairs as you can, join a collectors society, and visit museums to see the quality of badges in their collections and talk to established collectors And if that dosnt put you off GOOD LUCK P.B. Caveat Emptor Very, very sound advice PB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7t2ndswinger Posted 13 June , 2007 Share Posted 13 June , 2007 I dont know about on line societies but the main collectors societys are the Military Historical Society founded in 1950 and Crown Imperial ( orginally a breakaway group from the M.H.S founded to try and do something about the number of restrikes which were being sold as genuine badges ) P.B. Peter, Can you give us an insight into Crown Imperial. If I remember correctly they are mentioned in K&K 2. Are they a society you can join? Thanks Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 13 June , 2007 Share Posted 13 June , 2007 Further thoughts on eBay badges ... I spotted this KRRC badge on eBay from a Seller in Australia: It was described as "THE KINGS ROYAL RIFLE CORPS 1WW", which I took to mean WW1. Mindful that a. it has a Queen Victoria crown and b. it looks very clean and new, I sent a Question to the Seller: "Are you sure this dates from World War One? It looks very new." I got this back in reply: "beyond a shadow of dought" ... which the Seller also added to the Item's page! Funnily enough it didn't sell! From his other items, which all look like they've just been stamped out, with absolutely no attempt to age them or otherwise pass them off as genuine, I'm guessing this particular Seller is selling restrike copies and assumed I was asking if the badge pattern dated from WW1 (which it doesn't BTW) rather than the actual badge itself. If he's trying to shift fakes as real historic badges, then he clearly isn't trying hard enough Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 13 June , 2007 Share Posted 13 June , 2007 THE CAP BADGE COLLECTORS BIBLE IS KIPLING and KING VOLUME I HEAD-DRESS BADGES OF THE BRITISH ARMY up to the end of the Great War ISBN 0 584 10947 4 it will cost you about £60 new.Volume 2 is from 1919 to date. MILITARY BADGE COLLECTING by the late JOHN GAYLOR ISBN 0-85052-524-1 is a very good book about £20 . MILITARY BADGES OF THE BRITISH EMPIRE by REGINALD H W COX good book a lot of drawn rather than actual photos of badges original cost £45 mine cost nothing like that. Ralph Neil, The Internet is a good place to track down specialist books. Try hunting for these titles on: http://www.abebooks.co.uk/ and http://www.bookfinder.com/ There's always eBay too as mentioned by Pals above, and trusty Amazon if you don't mind paying new prices. Happy hunting! Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graeme Fisher Posted 13 June , 2007 Share Posted 13 June , 2007 Peter, Can you give us an insight into Crown Imperial. If I remember correctly they are mentioned in K&K 2. Are they a society you can join? Thanks Keith Crown Imperial folded a couple of years ago. A great pity because it was a society run by, and for, the knowledgable general public. There were some very informative articles in their quarterly A4 sized journal, but a lack of contributors speeded its demise. The MHS still provides, for ten or fifteen quid a year, an excellent resource with a very knowledgable membership. O, and there's some forum on the net run by some bloke called Chris which is quite good....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Clark Posted 13 June , 2007 Share Posted 13 June , 2007 The fact remains that no one (and that includes dealers and collectors alike) can be 100% sure a badge is "real" or "original" or whatever you wish to name a genuine badge. Then you need to consider another potential pitfall - "What makes a badge "genuine, real or original? What about a badge made in the 1900's that was never actually issued, is that genuine or not? What about a badge made from an original mould in the 1970's, is that real or not? I could go on and on..... The point I wish to make here is that there are so many unissued badges on the market that it is "nigh on" impossible to confirm you possess the "real" issued article. My advice is to handle the badge and then make an informed decision to buy or not to buy. If it feels right and the quality is good then buy it if you wish. Don't pay more than a Tenner for any badge unless you can prove it's rare and or genuine. Most of the stuff on Ebay is new and unissued. Some badges on Ebay are very good quality but you can't tell unless to pick the things up before you buy (which you can't do on Ebay). Buyer Beware! The only way to ensure you have an issued badge is to be given it by the person it was issued to. Sorry to sound so negative but this is the reality. I've given up collecting the things cos I made too many mistakes and could never be sure I was getting a reasonable bargain. Best of luck whatever you decide to do.... Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7t2ndswinger Posted 14 June , 2007 Share Posted 14 June , 2007 Further thoughts on eBay badges ... I spotted this KRRC badge on eBay from a Seller in Australia: It was described as "THE KINGS ROYAL RIFLE CORPS 1WW", which I took to mean WW1. Mindful that a. it has a Queen Victoria crown and b. it looks very clean and new, I sent a Question to the Seller: "Are you sure this dates from World War One? It looks very new." I got this back in reply: "beyond a shadow of dought" ... which the Seller also added to the Item's page! Funnily enough it didn't sell! From his other items, which all look like they've just been stamped out, with absolutely no attempt to age them or otherwise pass them off as genuine, I'm guessing this particular Seller is selling restrike copies and assumed I was asking if the badge pattern dated from WW1 (which it doesn't BTW) rather than the actual badge itself. If he's trying to shift fakes as real historic badges, then he clearly isn't trying hard enough Cheers, Mark Mark, These are cast copies, probably made in solder. The seller's wares are very similar to a couple over ebay merchants over here from the Nuneaton/Coventry area. Absolute rubbish. Thieir listings also had a numerical code at the end of the title so it may even be the same person. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsyeoman Posted 14 June , 2007 Share Posted 14 June , 2007 Fully endorse PB's remarks; nothing matches getting hands on the badges - but as the supply of the real thing gets swamped by the fakes (and I mean 'fakes' as for me a 'restrike' is a very precise thing: made from ORIGINAL dies of a real badge, not modern reconstructions) it gets harder and harder to tell. One way might be to try and examine museum collections. In the 11 years I've been 'online' I have only seen two - yes two - GENUINE Birmingham City Battalions cap badges for sale on EBay. Fakes (and they are fakes) aplenty and they do stand out like a sore thumb if you have a real one. Yet they are "rare and 100% genuine" yada, yada. I stopped trading with one dealer as he had two of them side by side in his books - one indubitably the real thing. And priced accordingly. Next to it: utter fake. Made yesterday. Same price. He did know better. Agreed - minefield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 14 June , 2007 Share Posted 14 June , 2007 Even museum collections are suspect as they are inevitably assembled long afterwards. The Army Air Corps Museum in Middle Wallop has 2 large frames of badges presented by someone and even being only to see the fronts there are clearly several copies in amongst them. You do get the odd rarity on ebay (and despite the fact that I have only ever seen 3 genuine Birmingham Pals badges on ebay I did win a 1st Birmingham Battalion badge from an ebay seller at a relatively good price!) and it is a good source for modern issue badges but genuine WW1 badges are rare and normally snapped up by dealers. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 14 June , 2007 Share Posted 14 June , 2007 Both of these are ebay purchases - one was £5 and the other £30. Dealers' price for a genuine one is about £100+. The fake one has been artificially aged and it is only through handing the badges and very minor design differnces that you can tell the difference. A slightly blurred picture on ebay and a ambiguous description and the beginner has no hope! Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yellow Posted 14 June , 2007 Share Posted 14 June , 2007 Mmmmmnnnnnnn let me guess.......genuine badge to the right? You see the reason why I know that is not because Ive bought all the books its because I have handled genuine cap badges for years at fairs. Its the only way to learn. Books are ok for reference but will easily confuse the beginner as many contain photos of fakes. As for eBay, I`d never buy a badge from there unless I knew that the badge in question had never been faked. Yet again another item of information gathered by attending fairs and visiting dealers shops. In many cases its actually cheaper to buy from dealers than eBay! Sadly over the years some badges have become so rare that even I have lost touch of the prices. To catch up I`m now taking auction catalogues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 14 June , 2007 Share Posted 14 June , 2007 Mark, These are cast copies, probably made in solder. The seller's wares are very similar to a couple over ebay merchants over here from the Nuneaton/Coventry area. Absolute rubbish. Thieir listings also had a numerical code at the end of the title so it may even be the same person. Keith That's what I concluded - on the original picture, you can clearly see the mould lines. It was so blatantly a modern piece without even the most rudimentary finishing or ageing, that I had to give the Seller the benefit of the doubt as to whether he was deliberately trying to pass them off as "genuine" (whatever that really means!). I have no problem with modern copies intended for use in e.g. films/TV or by re-enactment groups, & they can be good for a reference resource, but I've no time for scammers - I think the jury is still out on this particular Seller ... or maybe I'm just a generous type Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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