Willie McBride

[cockney tone]

Peter,

i am really confused now after reading your post and comparing it with what Des posted at no 73!

Well, what ever the truth is i like the song!

Regards and best wishes,

Scottie.

[irishmen1916]

Hi Scottie,

See What Charlie posted at 41, also Martin Gilberts book "The Somme". Yes a great war song, it don't matter if one or two words get changed when in the singing as long as the message of the song gets across.

Waltzing Matilda is one of the best war songs I have heard, I sang it one night to members of the Australian Rugby team in a pub in Dublin (during one of the world cups years ago) a few of them had tears in there eyes........I think it was the way I sang it

(Guinness can do that to you ), see if you can get hold of Liam Clancy's recording of it.....Brilliant. Peter

[cockney tone]

Peter,

thanks for drawing my attention to that post, the following one at no 42 from Des made me chuckle!

I am sorry that you reduced the Aussies to tears with your singing! tis truly a sad song, I went to Gallipoli a couple of years ago and listening to it through an 'I Pod thingy' over looking Suvla was very moving! (Despite the odd inaccuracy in that song as well!)

Still thing I will take my party to Authilliue and read the song to them (not sing it!)

Have a good day,

Regards,

Scottie.

[irishmen1916]

Have a good time...........when are you going ?

[cockney tone]

June some time, i await confirmation from my ex colleagues who have asked me to guide a little walking tour for them, had a great recce last week.

I had timed my arrival at the cemetery for just before sunset and stood at the cross and read Charles Douie's account of a burial there, I am not a great one for poetry but it was 'just one of those moments'!

Regards,

Scottie.

[Ulsterlad]

see if you can get hold of Liam Clancy's recording of it.....Brilliant. Peter

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3pU7rsim3E

Bogle's lyrics / poetry and Clancy's rendition. Hauntingly beautiful.

[Desmond7]

Tone - only picked this up - will scan and post.

Glory Glory.

[Desmond7]

As requested - from 'A Wheen O' Medals' (History of the 9th Service Btn R Innis Fus in the Great War) by Bill Canning.

[inishowen]

If you have a singer in your group a visit to McBrides grave can be a wonderful experience. I've done it twice, once when a young girl sang to a group of teenagers and a second occassion when an older group, mostly lads over 50 struggled through a couple of verses and had to quit.

Sometimes I think people can get a bit too hung up on the facts of this matter. Who cares which of these boys Bogle was writing about? (though I'm delighted that Des has provided the best proof available, its the story i've been telling myself for a while). Visiting McBride can be symbolic for many people who may not have direct relatives lost in the war but who have known this song most of their lives and can relate to it. If it evokes feelings of loss or anger among a group of visitors or enhances their visit in any way then it is worth doing.

Some people seem to get a perverse pleasure out of 'disproving' stories like the McBride case - I feel sorry for them really because they are missing the whole point. The cold facts of WW1 can be read in books at home, the real learning in graveyards can only be felt in the heart, when your emotions are affected by the scale of the loss and the odd glimpse of heroism and comradeship.

The work of songwriters has opened the door for many people on the human experience of WW1 and led them into further historical study of the period. I find it wonderful to stand in Authuille and know that a more creative mind than mine was inspired on those slopes to write and compose such an evocative piece.

If 'the facts and only the facts' as Mr Gradgrind would say, are what interet people most, then I would advise them to put on their slippers and sit in front of the fire with tomes of histories and regimental diaries. But if you want to get a real 'feel' for what happened on the western front then travel armed not only with your trench maps and guide books, but with mens letters and poems in your pocket, and their songs in your heart. And if you find yourself humming Tipperary as you walk along .... then you might just have 'got it'.

[squirrel]

Des,

any chance of you e-mailing me a copy of Willie McBride's picture?

[squirrel]

Inishowen,

with respect and thanks for posting your feelings, you can get the facts right and visit the cemeteries with the songs on your tongue and the men's words and poetry in your pocket and in your heart.

The trouble with myths and half truths is that they get perpetuated and eventually become the generally accepted versions. Better to have the right info in the first place IMHO.

[inishowen]

Squirrel,

In this case im delighted that Des has been able to confirm the Bogle story as I wouldnt knowingly tell anyone that was the guy in question if we knew it definitely wasnt. (Its called lying.) The broader point I suppose was that some people would seem to prefer to pooh-pooh a story or anecdote that couldn't be stood up 100% rather than see its value in illustrating a point. As I said before, you can read the cold hard facts at home but going to the western front evokes feelings and emotions that give an even deeper understanding of what went on there. Hearing Willie McBride sung beside that particular headstone does it for some people, reading a poem by Ledwidge at Boesinge does it for others. IMHO anyone who isn't moved emotionally by the Western Front and what happened there is in need of some serious therapy.

[Peter Bennett]

If you have a singer in your group a visit to McBrides grave can be a wonderful experience. I've done it twice, once when a young girl sang to a group of teenagers and a second occassion when an older group, mostly lads over 50 struggled through a couple of verses and had to quit.

Sometimes I think people can get a bit too hung up on the facts of this matter. Who cares which of these boys Bogle was writing about? (though I'm delighted that Des has provided the best proof available, its the story i've been telling myself for a while). Visiting McBride can be symbolic for many people who may not have direct relatives lost in the war but who have known this song most of their lives and can relate to it. If it evokes feelings of loss or anger among a group of visitors or enhances their visit in any way then it is worth doing.

Some people seem to get a perverse pleasure out of 'disproving' stories like the McBride case - I feel sorry for them really because they are missing the whole point. The cold facts of WW1 can be read in books at home, the real learning in graveyards can only be felt in the heart, when your emotions are affected by the scale of the loss and the odd glimpse of heroism and comradeship.

The work of songwriters has opened the door for many people on the human experience of WW1 and led them into further historical study of the period. I find it wonderful to stand in Authuille and know that a more creative mind than mine was inspired on those slopes to write and compose such an evocative piece.

If 'the facts and only the facts' as Mr Gradgrind would say, are what interet people most, then I would advise them to put on their slippers and sit in front of the fire with tomes of histories and regimental diaries. But if you want to get a real 'feel' for what happened on the western front then travel armed not only with your trench maps and guide books, but with mens letters and poems in your pocket, and their songs in your heart. And if you find yourself humming Tipperary as you walk along .... then you might just have 'got it'.

I will never be a challenge to the late, great, Pavarotti (except for build !) but I sang it at his grave in Nov 2006 with Matt & Allison Smith of the AWGPA and my long-suffering wife of 35 years (she lets me have time off for good behaviour!!) and we all felt something which words cannot describe.

You are right when you mention disproving the myths; does it matter that James Cagney never said "You Dirty Rat" or Captain James T. Kirk never said "Beam Me Up, Scottie" Nearly everyone believes it......................

[Desmond7]

Sorry folks - for those who are seeking pics of Willie - it's a scan from a book. You are looking at about the best quality I can do. Do a 'save as' and see how you get on.

I have to say that I am NOT stating that this is Bogle's man .. just that Bill Canning's book contains the references already quoted.

Des

[squirrel]

Inishowen,

thanks for the reply. I understand what you are saying.

Anyone who can stand at my uncle's grave and read the inscription without getting a lump in their throat shouldn't bother going. But then, of course, I am a little biased.

[kevin ley]

Which one of these was the Willie McBride mentioned in the Green Fields Of France

The song says he was 19 in 1916 and here are the only two possibles from the CWGC.

McBRIDE, W Private 21406 10/02/1916 Unknown Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers United Kingdom A. 36. AUTHUILE MILITARY CEMETERY

McBRIDE, WILLIAM JOHN Rifleman 1442 02/07/1916 Unknown Royal Irish Rifles United Kingdom Pier and Face 15 A and 15 B. THIEPVAL MEMORIAL

Kevin

I went on a guided tour of Western Front and Somme a few years ago and our guide who was very knowledgable on the subject said it was the Willie McBride in Authuille Cemetery that Eric Bogle wrote about.

Rgds,

[Skipman]

Hi

I will duck for cover in a short while, but just feel I need to point out that Eric Bogle is an artist and not an historian and therefore i have never taken his song literally as a record of a visit to a single grave, although the song is centered on "young Willie McBride". For me it is a grieving reaction to the magnitude of the slaughter of the Great War. I can even tolerate the bit about it all being in vain - a point I disagree with most strongly - because I reckon that the song is not meant to be taken literally and is more about the singers feelings than the accurate portrayal of the real events.

If this offering from Eric Bogle has pricked up your ears, try "The band palyed 'Waltzing Matilda'", also covered by the Pogues, a song about an Aussie who comes out of the bush and becomes an ANZAC, gets shipped off to Gallipoli where he see his mates die in their thousands and then gets his legs taken off by a "big Turkish shell". He is sent home to an anonymous homecoming where people shun his suffering and then he lives his life in bitterness and longs for his old life of wandering in the bush. This one really will make you cry!

For those with a sense of humour, try "Plastic Paddy" a song about an Irish pub in the French Quarter of New Orleans and its failing attmpts to offer the true "Craic".

Eric Bogle has a website which can be found at the other end of a Google on "Eric Bogle" funnily enough! Enjoy.

Now ducking for cover

Cheers,

ps.... I'm with Dave on the Accrington Pals song!

Nigel

Further to the accuracy of eric bogle's lyrics he says in "band played waltzing matilda" that they "died in that hell they called suvla bay".......The anzacs weren't at suvla ,were they?

[Wesley]

Dancing At Whitsun by Steeleye Span

... about the woman of the Lost Generation who remember their menfolk at the spring dancing at Whitsun not in November

An absolutely beautiful (and very sad) song, particularly the Steeleye version sung by Tim Hart.

For anyone not familiar with this song here are the lyrics…

The Witsun Dance

It's fifty long spring-times since she was a bride,

But still you may see her at each Whitsuntide

In a dress of white linen with ribbons of green,

As green as her memories of loving.

The feet that were nimble tread carefully now,

As gentle a measure as age will allow,

Through groves of white blossoms, by fields of young corn,

Where once she was pledged to her true-love.

The fields they stand empty, the hedges grow free,

No young men to tend them or pastures go see

They are gone where the forests of oak trees before

Had gone to be wasted in battle.

Down from the green farmlands and from their loved ones

Marched husbands and brothers and fathers and sons.

There's a fine roll of honour where the Maypole once stood,

And the ladies go dancing at Whitsun.

There's a straight row of houses in these latter days

All covering the downs where the sheep used to graze.

There's a field of red poppies and a wreath from the Queen,

But the ladies remember at Whitsun,

And the ladies go dancing at Whitsun.

Lyrics by Austin John Cooper. 1968

The author is quoted about this song in ‘The Cruel Wars’ (a fantastic book for anyone interested in military related folk songs)…

“Many of the old ladies who swell the lists of Country Dance Societies are 1914/18 war widows, or ladies who had lost fiancés and lovers. Country dancing kept the memory of their young men alive…”

He goes on to say…

“When [singer’s name] started singing the piece the impact was disturbing, for many people in audiences identified with it. Tears were frequent…”

[alliekiwi]

Further to the accuracy of eric bogle's lyrics he says in "band played waltzing matilda" that they "died in that hell they called suvla bay".......The anzacs weren't at suvla ,were they?

No, they weren't. In the song they're also given a 'tin hat' in 1915, which is anachronistic.

I like the Furey's version [Edit of No Man's Land/Green Fields of France - sorry, changed songs mid-post!] (I enjoy their singing style), but some of the wording changes annoy me. E.g. 'The countless white crosses in mute witness stand' became 'The countless white crosses stand mute in the sand'...which makes no sense in France where the crosses aren't in sand at all! Also, they got rid of the bit about 'The trenches have vanished long under the plough' and replaced it with 'And look how the sun shines from under the clouds'! Argh.

That being said, I do like some of the changes which I think make the song flow better, musically.

Allie

[cockney tone]

Des,

a very belated thanks for post 84 and the picture which I had previously missed!

Cheers,

Scottie.

[Ron Clifton]

Hello all

"The countless white crosses" suggests a French cemetery. Perhaps the "real" Willie McBride joined the French Army in memory of the Auld Alliance. We had the London Scottish, Liverpool Scottish, Tyneside Scottish, Toronto Scottish and Transvaal Scottish, among others, so why not the Paris Scottish or the Lyon Scottish?

The song incidentally contains a couplet worthy of the great McGonagall:

Did the bugles sound the Last Post in chorus?

Did the pipes play The Flowers of the Forest?

Anyone intending to perform the song should remember that it is still in copyright.

Ron

[Skipman]

Is it not "last post AND chorus"?

[alliekiwi]

Depends on the version you listen to, skipman. On Eric Bogle's site, he has 'last post in chorus'.

Allie

[Ozzie]

http://www.fortunecity.com/tinpan/parton/2/noman.html

http://www.ericbogle.net/bogleography/index.htm

http://ericbogle.net/bogleblurb/index.htm

http://ericbogle.net/lyrics/index.htm

[Guest KevinEndon]

It is the song and the tought that the Willie McBride's story is true that has got my son interested in the great war. So if the above grave is the right one or not I still want to say to Eric Bogle many thanks for a brilliant song which helps others remember.

Des, this morning I showed my lad the photo you have posted and he has gone to school grinning like a Cheshire cat that he now knows what Willie McBride looks like. For that Desmond I thank you.

Kevin