Harlebeke New British Cemetery, Belgium

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Since my last post I have had some much-appreciated help from Marc Glorieux in finding out more about Deinze, both hospital and cemetery, and have also just had a helpful reply from the CWGC about the remains moved from Deinze German War Cemetery to Harlebeke New Cemetery. They are all together in graves XII.E. I - 8:

XII.E.

1. Morgan, R Private, S/11305, Cameron Highlanders 5th Bn Died 10.5.1918

2.Gallant, A.A. Private, 40257, Bedfordshire Regiment 2nd Bn Died 23.5.1918

3. Webb, Henry Rees Captain, South Staffordshire Regiment 4th Bn Died 7.5.1918

4 Robson, Alfred Private, 40770, South Lancashire Regiment 2nd Bn, age 35 Died 30.4.1918

5. Hardcastle, John Thomas Rifleman, C/12190, King's Royal Rifle Corps 2nd Bn, age 26 Died 6.8.1917

6. Prime, H.L. Second Lieutenant Royal Air Force 206 Squadron Died 6.10.1918

7. Martin, E. Lance Corporal, 202231,King's Own Scottish borderers Died 9.10.1918

8. Plowman, George Alfred Private, 106861,Sherwood Foresters (Notts and Derby Regt) Died 15.10. 1918

This confirms my great-aunt's fiance John Thomas Hardcastle, who I knew had died in the hospital at Deinze, was moved from there, and also Robert Morgan, mentioned in my previous post. Reginald Peel Pohlmann, however, the pilot shot down over Deinze, was not. He is in a different part of HNB cemetery, VII.C.3.

Liz

[John Osborn]

Hello friends

I came across this site whilst researching one of my grandmothers brothers who was killed in WW1. I am very happy to contribute to this forum with his details in the hope I will recieve feedback from someone concerning the Harlebeke cemetary and my great uncles unit. Here are his details:

James Edward Southren was the son of James Bell Southren and his first wife, Kate Adelaide Taylor. He was therefore the half brother of my grandmother, Kate Adelaide Southren.

He was barely one year old when his mother died and was bought up by his fathers brother Edward and his wife, Elizabeth, as his father was a ships engineer and spent a lot of time at sea.

Jim went to war at the begining of the first world war and served as a Gunner in the 37th. Siege Battery of the Royal Garrison Artillery. Rank: Gunner. Service Number: 52498. I have discovered that the Siege Artillery operated the large guns that laid down the blanket bombardments that were put down before a major attack. They were usually located well behind the front lines. He was unscathed throughout the war, untill, five days before the armistice, during a rest period with his colleagues, he was struck in the head by an allegedly stray bullet and killed instantly on 6 November 1918. As he would have been stationed behind the front lines how could this happen?

He is commemorated on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website (http://www.cwgc.org/cwgcinternet/certificate.aspx?casualty=486502).

His grave is in the Harlebeke New British Cemetery, in Belgium, run by Commonwealth War Graves Commission.

He is shown on the citation of the War Graves Commission as being the adopted son of Edward and Elizabeth Southren of 2, Wallace Street, Monkwearmouth.

On all official War records it is notable that his surname is always misspelled as Southern and not Southren.

His medals and death plaque are in my possession, as they were passed down to my grandmother and thence to me.

Best regards

John Osborn

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Jim went to war at the begining of the first world war and served as a Gunner in the 37th. Siege Battery of the Royal Garrison Artillery. Rank: Gunner. Service Number: 52498. I have discovered that the Siege Artillery operated the large guns that laid down the blanket bombardments that were put down before a major attack. They were usually located well behind the front lines. He was unscathed throughout the war, untill, five days before the armistice, during a rest period with his colleagues, he was struck in the head by an allegedly stray bullet and killed instantly on 6 November 1918. As he would have been stationed behind the front lines how could this happen?

Hello John - welcome to the forum.

I think your query above, along with Jim's details, would be better placed in a new thread in the Soldiers subforum - perhaps you could just copy it there, even though posting the same thing on multiple subforums isn't usually encouraged. This thread is very specific to the cemetery, and a lot more members will look at your query in that subforum than here, I think. Or you could ask in Units and Formations about the movements of the 37th Siege Battery.

On this thread the question of where he was originally buried before being moved to Harlebeke could then be addressed. We don't yet know where he died, do we?

Liz

[John Osborn]

Hello John - welcome to the forum.

I think your query above, along with Jim's details, would be better placed in a new thread in the Soldiers subforum - perhaps you could just copy it there, even though posting the same thing on multiple subforums isn't usually encouraged. This thread is very specific to the cemetery, and a lot more members will look at your query in that subforum than here, I think. Or you could ask in Units and Formations about the movements of the 37th Siege Battery.

On this thread the question of where he was originally buried before being moved to Harlebeke could then be addressed. We don't yet know where he died, do we?

Liz

Liz

Thanks for this advice, I have done as you suggest.

I am still interested in the Harlebeke New British Cemetery and I hope to visit there next summer.

How could I find out where he was killed? I'm new to the military side of family history and just do not know where to start.

Regards

John

[lisalade]

Hi,

I came across this thread when I was looking for information regading my Great Uncle - Thomas Walker who died on 25th October 1918 and is buried in Harlebeke New British Cemetary.

He was born in Islington, London - son of Henry & Charlotte Walker and was the 6th born of 11 children. The story goes that his mother died when he was still quite young and they were all very poor. When Thomas was 7 he was caught begging for pennies outside some "gasworks" and the police took him home and when they discovered they had food in the cupboard he was sentenced to 7 years in borstal. When he came out of borstal at the age of 14 he then joined the army. Rumour also has it that Thomas' father received the telegram informing him of his son's death on Armistice Day itself. Quite a sad tale all in all.

I know that this thread was started quite a few years ago but I will be interested to know if the above is of use.

Regards,

Lisa

[von Smallhausen]

Hello friends

I came across this site whilst researching one of my grandmothers brothers who was killed in WW1. I am very happy to contribute to this forum with his details in the hope I will recieve feedback from someone concerning the Harlebeke cemetary and my great uncles unit. Here are his details:

James Edward Southren was the son of James Bell Southren and his first wife, Kate Adelaide Taylor. He was therefore the half brother of my grandmother, Kate Adelaide Southren.

He was barely one year old when his mother died and was bought up by his fathers brother Edward and his wife, Elizabeth, as his father was a ships engineer and spent a lot of time at sea.

Jim went to war at the begining of the first world war and served as a Gunner in the 37th. Siege Battery of the Royal Garrison Artillery. Rank: Gunner. Service Number: 52498. I have discovered that the Siege Artillery operated the large guns that laid down the blanket bombardments that were put down before a major attack. They were usually located well behind the front lines. He was unscathed throughout the war, untill, five days before the armistice, during a rest period with his colleagues, he was struck in the head by an allegedly stray bullet and killed instantly on 6 November 1918. As he would have been stationed behind the front lines how could this happen?

He is commemorated on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website (http://www.cwgc.org/...casualty=486502).

His grave is in the Harlebeke New British Cemetery, in Belgium, run by Commonwealth War Graves Commission.

He is shown on the citation of the War Graves Commission as being the adopted son of Edward and Elizabeth Southren of 2, Wallace Street, Monkwearmouth.

On all official War records it is notable that his surname is always misspelled as Southern and not Southren.

His medals and death plaque are in my possession, as they were passed down to my grandmother and thence to me.

Best regards

John Osborn

Hello John,

You are quite right, the name of one of your ancestors is misspelled. ... Have you ever tried to find the War Diary of the 37th Siege Btty? Maybe then there is a possebility to find out what happened. You must know, the river Scheldt was reached on the whole Second Army front on 31st October-1st November 1918. The main crossings happened on 8th November. Till then the whole area between Lys and Scheldt was a dangerous one. German Heavy artillery was posted on the hills around Kluisbergen/Kwaremont ( Mont de l' Enclus/Quaremont). Every movement was seen and attracted artilleryfire. Attached is an entry in the grave register.

with kind regards fro Flanders,

Jef

[von Smallhausen]

Hi,

I came across this thread when I was looking for information regading my Great Uncle - Thomas Walker who died on 25th October 1918 and is buried in Harlebeke New British Cemetary.

He was born in Islington, London - son of Henry & Charlotte Walker and was the 6th born of 11 children. The story goes that his mother died when he was still quite young and they were all very poor. When Thomas was 7 he was caught begging for pennies outside some "gasworks" and the police took him home and when they discovered they had food in the cupboard he was sentenced to 7 years in borstal. When he came out of borstal at the age of 14 he then joined the army. Rumour also has it that Thomas' father received the telegram informing him of his son's death on Armistice Day itself. Quite a sad tale all in all.

I know that this thread was started quite a few years ago but I will be interested to know if the above is of use.

Regards,

Lisa

hello Lisa,

Your great uncle's unit ( 12 Bn Royal Irish Rifles, 108Bde, 36th Div) was caught in fierce fightings against the German Infanterie Regiment 102 ( later relieved by RIR 225 and RIR 226) on Kleineberg, a hill between Anzegem, Tiegem and Ingooigem. A day later, 26 October Norman Harvey (1R. Innis.Fus) won his VC on the same Kleineberg. The top of that ridge was only reached on the 31st October. Meanwhile the 36th Div was relieved on 28 Oktober 1918 by the 34th Div. The 28th October was the last day of the 36th Division in the frontline.

Hope this is of interest,

Jef

[lisalade]

hello Lisa,

Your great uncle's unit ( 12 Bn Royal Irish Rifles, 108Bde, 36th Div) was caught in fierce fightings against the German Infanterie Regiment 102 ( later relieved by RIR 225 and RIR 226) on Kleineberg, a hill between Anzegem, Tiegem and Ingooigem. A day later, 26 October Norman Harvey (1R. Innis.Fus) won his VC on the same Kleineberg. The top of that ridge was only reached on the 31st October. Meanwhile the 36th Div was relieved on 28 Oktober 1918 by the 34th Div. The 28th October was the last day of the 36th Division in the frontline.

Hope this is of interest,

Jef

Thanks Jef - that is extremely interesting.

Regards, Lisa

[Dagwood00]

Hi there, I'm new to the forum and would like to add my Uncle, Pte George Frederick Sykes to the Harlebeke New Cemetery database.

George served in 1st Btn ( London Regiment) Royal Fusiliers and although there is some confusion as to where he was originally buried, ie De Ruvigny's Roll of Honour states Switzerland, it would appear that he died on 29th October 1917 of wounds received on 26th October in the advance on Cambrai at which time he may have been taken prisoner.

His medal records show he had two service nos. 5577 then 202475 though I am not sure why. Perhaps others could explain this?

His CWGC record shows his grave Ref 1.B.6. and I have seen one reference to his having been buried at Harlebeke as late as 1924 though again I cannot confirm this.

I have photos of him in uniform in the UK, and with service colleagues somewhere in France, and his Death Penny. If you would like copies please advise me how to get them to you.

Many thanks

Dagwood00

[billyhart14]

Can I add my wifes granddad to the Harlebeke list, he was William Berry, born 1885 in Leicester and left a wife and 4 sons, he was KIA Wednesday 16 October 1918. He enlisted in the Leicestershire reg 38044, moved to the Royal Scots Fusiliers 51203 and then Kings Own Scottish Borderers 6tth batt, 41570

[Cnock]

2Lt POHLMANN was originally buried at the German military cemetery at Egem.

He and Ireland were brought over from Hooglede on 7 Feb 1918 and buried on 8 Feb 1918.

They were not shot down near Deinze or Oudenburg.

regards,

Cnock

[Guest isabelle]

Hi I have just newly joined. I am researching all the names on the Lochmaben War memorial in Scotland. I have used the CGC website and information locally. I came across one soldier who is remembered at Harlebeke and found your website and discussion.

Alexander Wright Monie was born at Mouswald, Dumfriesshire on 4th July 1899 to a ploughman called Samuel Monie and his wife, Mary. He died age 19 on 6th May 1918. At time of death his mother was living in Lochmaben.

[Guest isabelle]

I am new! Forgot to mention that Alexander Monie was a private in the 6th battalion of the KOSB. His service no is 32528.

[gjking]

Another soldier buried at Harlebeke was 2ND LT. FREDERICK WILLIAM ORREY

He was a school teacher, and lived at Hawnby, North Yorkshire before enlisting. The piece in the Yorkshire Gazette of 19 January 1918, reports-

2nd Lt F.W. Orrey, the Hawnby schoolmaster and lay reader, who was taken prisoner by the Germans last summer, is stated by the Red Cross authorities in Berlin to have died of wounds in September. With Mrs. Orrey, who has been carrying on her husband’s work, much sympathy is expressed. Mr. Orrey, as a lay reader, was known to many in parishes adjacent to Hawnby, as well as to people of Hawnby itself. Though he might have had reason to claim to be left in his civil appointment, he answered the call for men early in 1916. He joined the K.R.R.C. as a private, but was later given a commission.

It would be interesting to know when he was taken prisoner and where he was buried by the Germans, his death was on 16th Sep 1917, and he was in 13th Btn K.R.R.C.

Geoff King

[Guest otiscribblecobbis]

Hello folks.

New to the forum. I've just walked to Harlebeke cemetery to visit the grave of my great-uncle Private Edward Charles John Connelly of the 10th Battalion, Queen's West Surreys who was killed aged 19 on 4th November 1918.

It was while foostering around in the family genealogy a couple of years ago that I came across him, having been previously entirely ignorant of his existence. I mentioned him to my dad and he wasn't even aware that he'd ever had an Uncle Edward, let alone that he'd been killed in the Great War. He did say that his father (Edward's younger brother) had joined up under age but never talked about it and wonders whether that's why Edward was completely forgotten.

So, as a kind of penance/pilgrimage I decided to walk from where Edward was born in Kensal Town, north London, to his grave in the Harlebeke Cemetery, which I did earlier this month.

I'd not been able to find out much about Edward - his records are among those lost in the Blitz and his medal card gives little away - but through circumstantial evidence I'm guessing that he went out to Flanders after the 10th Queen's suffered heavy losses during the Spring Offensive. I found his will online, dated April 8 1918: (would I be right in thinking he would have made this once he'd been deployed?) and in the IWM archive came across a reference by a fellow private of the 10th Queen's to "a lot of 19 year olds" arriving to join them around that time.

On the 1911 census Edward is noted as being "a bit deaf" so maybe he'd tried to enlist earlier but been turned down due to this apparent slight disability.

Anyway, to add a few details for the database, he was born on April 25 1899 at 12 Gadsden Mews, north Kensington, the eldest child of George and Marion Connelly, a general labourer and a laundress. By the early years of the war he was working for the Great Western Railway washing railway carriages at Old Oak Common depot close to his home. Other than that everything was sketchy until I reached his grave and met the amazing Fhilip,mentioned elsewhere in this thread, who was able to take me through Edward's last days and be confident of identifying the field where he was most likely killed, between the village of Kerkove and the River Schelde. He was the only member of his regiment to die on that date and, it seems, was probably the last member of the 10th Queen's to die in the Great War.

Through Ancestry a distant cousin in Australia sent me this photograph that had been in her family for as long as she could remember; we can't be 100 per cent sure but we think that might be Edward seated on the far left - any insight into the circumstances and content of this picture would be much appreciated.

Charlie

[von Smallhausen]

Hello Charlie,

The 10/Queen's relieved the 20/DLI in the night of 4-5 november 1918 in the area between Kerkhove and Eeuwhoek (Elseghem, SW Flanders). On the other side of the Scheldt were units of RIR 10, IR 22 and IR 156. If you want to I can take some pics of the area where your great uncle might have been killed.

Thank you for sharing the photograph.

Jef

[Guest otiscribblecobbis]

Hi Jef,

That's really kind of you but Fhilip took me there so I was able to take a few pictures myself. Thank you, though, it's a really kind offer.

Hoping to make it over to the Harlebeke Remembrance Day ceremony this year - maybe see you there?

Charlie

[von Smallhausen]

Hoping to make it over to the Harlebeke Remembrance Day ceremony this year - maybe see you there?

Well that's wonderful Charlie. I'm afraid I will attend Remembrance Day in Vichte Military Cemetery, about 5 Km SE of Harlebeke NBC.

Kind regards,

Jef

[old joe]

Well done to Charles for rediscovering his Great uncle and walking a few miles in his shoes.

Regards,

joseph

[8055Bell]

1095 L/Cpl. Alfred Ridge Manchester Regiment, Cousin – Died 21/1/1918

Alfred was my grandfather's cousin as the son of his aunt Isabella Ridge nee Grindley. Alfred’s brother Ernest and my great aunt Dorothy lived in Hall Street, Greeheys in 1911. Alfred had been born in Hulme in 1887. His father Alfred Snr. was a Tailors Salesman who died in 1901. Records show the brothers had spent a period of 1902 in Chorlton Union Workhouse when their father had died.

Alfred joined the 6th Manchester Militia Battalion on 25th March 1906 and transferred to the regular Battalion in 1907. By the time of the 1911 Census, he was serving in India with the 1st Battalion.

At the outbreak of the War, the 1st Battalion remained in India and set sail from Karachi to France on 29th August 1914, arriving in Marseille on 26th September. Alfred’s Medal Index Card indicates his entitlement to the 1914 Star, with arrival in France on 27th August. Service Records of some other men with this date as arrival indicate departure from Karachi on 27th August and arrival at Marseille on 26th September. There is no explanation why a group of men are recorded as leaving India in advance of the Battalion.

Nearly 700 Manchester Regiment Reserves arrived with the 2nd Battalion at the Curragh in Ireland. The 2nd Battalion arrived in France on 16th/17th August and had taken part in the withdrawal from La Cateau by the time Alfred arrived on 27th August. It is possible Alfred had being called up as a Reserve after returning Home at the end of his Service. Records indicate he enlisted in Ashton, which would be consistent with the initial place the Reservists arrived; it may also refer to his initial attestation on 1906/07. It is possible the Reservists arrived after the main 2nd Battalion force on 27th August.

Alfred’s second Medal Roll page relates to his British War Medal and Victory Medal. This shows postings with the 1st, 12th and 11th Battalions. Other records indicate Alfred went on to serve with the 18th Battalion – the 3rd Pals or City Battalion – by late 1917. There are numerous examples of other Regular soldiers bolstering the ranks of the Service Battalions; notably after returning from wounding. The posting to four Battalions certainly indicates wounding on one or more occasions.

At some stage in late 1917 or early, Lance Corporal Alfred Ridge died. CWGC and SDGW records indicate he was Killed in Action on 21st January 1918 and buried in Harlebeke New British Cemetery, Belgium. This creates another anomaly because the 18th Battalion were 140 km south, near St Quentin in France on this date. Furthermore, Alfred’s grave was actually relocated from a German cemetery, somewhere near Ypres during 1923/24.

For the moment, the principal likely circumstances of Alfred’s death were that he had taken part in action with the 18th Battalion at Ypres in late 1917. It is then presumed he had been wounded, captured and then died in captivity before the Germans evacuated him to a Prisoner of War Camp.

Alfred’s 1914 Star Medal records indicate he was ‘Missing’; consistent with him being captured. It seems likely the official recorded death on 21/1/18 was reported by the Germans via the Red Cross. Alternatively it may have been the date Alfred was acknowledged dead, rather then the date he was known to have died.

Following the assumption that Alfred died as a German prisoner has lead to research of the possible engagement when he was captured. One prime possibility would be the defence of the Polderhoek sector of Ypres on the 11th – 15th December 1915. The 18th Battalion War Diary records 119 Other ranks Killed, Wounded or Missing.

This research of my only family member who is known to have died in the War is unsatisfactory. Alfred was an Old Contemptible (Pre-War Regular) and died serving as one of the Manchester Pals. His records of service and death are inconclusive.

If forum members wish to assist in remembering Alfred Ridge, the following would be helpful:-

1. Photo of Alfred’s grave at Harlebeke.

2. Copy of his Obituary in the Manchester Evening News of 30/5/18 (Not yet digitised). This includes his photo and possibly more explanation of his service and demise.

3. Red Cross or German military records concerning Alfred’s treatment or captivity.

4. CWGC records concerning the relocation fo Alfred's grave.

Cheers

Tim

[AOK4]

Hello,

Alfred Ridge is mentioned in my book "Menen Wald". he was originally buried on the German Cemetery Menen Wald (still existing, but enlarged) and reburied to Harelbeke in the 1920's.

He must have died in a German Hauptverbandplatz or a Feldlazarett in either Menen or Wevelgem.

Regards,

Jan Vancoillie

[8055Bell]

Hi Jan,

Thanks for your response. You've given me a new lead and confirmed explanation for Alfred's death as a PoW. Was there a Prison of War Camp nearby that was served by one of the Hauptverbandplatz or Feldlazarett, or would Alfred have been transferred for treatment during his transit as a PoW? I'm trying to find source material. Is there a published record of the British troops that were transferred from Menen Wald?

I've been looking at the pictures in your book and can see the amount of hard work you have taken in bringing this to publication. Is there an English translation?

Cheers

Tim

[AOK4]

Tim,

A list of all British casualties that were buried in Menen Wald can be found in my book. There is no English translation of my book.

He wasn't assigned to any POW Camp yet (that was only in Germany). The Germans just brought wounded POWs to the Hauptverbandplatz, Feldlazarett or Kriegslazarett. There they stayed until they were fit to be transferred to a POW camp or they died and were buried.

Jan

[8055Bell]

Thanks for your help Jan.

I may be pushing my luck here, but is it fair to assume the other men buried in block XIV, row C had been transferred from Menen Wald? Geoff's search engine shows 14 graves in this group. If this is the case I was hoping to cross-reference some possible service records to see if there is a link to a particular place for medical treatment.

I'm hoping to visit Alfred's grave next month and will have a look for your book, although reading it will be a challenge.

Tim

[SRD]

I have a distant cousin, Thomas Edmund Rathborn who, according to CWGC, was buried at Harlebeke, his details are:

Born 24th January 1898 son of Thomas & Sarah (née King)

Baptised 6th March at Holy Trinity, Lower Beeding, Sussex

He was living with his parents at the 1901 & 1911 Census at Clarence Road, Horsham, Sussex

CWGC says he was a Private in the Royal Sussex Regiment, 16th (Sussex Yeomanry) Bn. and that he died on 9/10/18.

Grave ref: XIX. A. 5.