Cameronians (Scottish Rifles)

[barrieduncan]

I can't find an obit for Webster in the Covenanter (which is surprising given his rank and time with the regiment, but not surprising in view of how little i've been able to come up with so far!)

In one of the editions from 1953, there is notice of an appeal from the regimental association, who were trying to build up a list of all the survivors of the Boer War. The updated list appears several times, and Webster never appears on it, so one can only speculate that at that time, he wasn't in touch with the Regiment or the Association. This would explain why there wasn't an obituary for him, especially if he wasn't living near the depot at the time of his death.

[DMcNay]

In one of the editions from 1953, there is notice of an appeal from the regimental association, who were trying to build up a list of all the survivors of the Boer War. The updated list appears several times, and Webster never appears on it, so one can only speculate that at that time, he wasn't in touch with the Regiment or the Association. This would explain why there wasn't an obituary for him, especially if he wasn't living near the depot at the time of his death.

Any chance of a copy of some of these lists? They might be useful for some of the men I'm looking for?

Also, any joy with Allan Lynch?

[barrieduncan]

No probs. No luck with lynch so far but just had a brian wave - if he is on the list from the early 50s, that narrows it down a good bit

[IanA]

Herbert Webster was blind from at least 1950 so would not have read any appeals. He was living in Huddersfield at the time and so would have been quite cut off from the regiment. The family have always been puzzled as to why he joined the Scottish Rifles - there was never any sort of Scottish connection and no army tradition. Thanks for all the work you have put in. I hope the photos and odd bits of info might repay to some extent.

Cheers,

Ian

[DMcNay]

just had a brian wave

I have no comment to make on this.

Except...who's Brian?

[barrieduncan]

Brian is a small, clever chap that lives inside my head - sometimes he imparts some of his wisdom on me, at other times, he makes me say things that make me sound very foolish

Ian,

Thank you very much for sharing those photographs, fascinating stuff I can assure you. I wouldn't puzzle too much at Webster joining the Scottish Rifles - the Regiment always had a healthy contingent of English men serving in the ranks. During the time he enlisted the 2nd Bn were based at Aldershot, so it wasn't as hard as you might think for an Englishman to join. I've recently been looking at some service papers for a chap who joined the 2nd Scottish Rifles in Liverpool, not long after Webster joined. Whether or not the recruiting serjeant and some men were actively sent out to industrial towns and cities in an effort to recruit is anyones guess, but it would appear that it was fairly easy for many a young English lad to join the ranks of the Scottish Rifles.

I hope one day you'll be able to come visit the museum, and possibly bring along some more of those photographs for me to peruse and confuse myself over

Cheers,

Barrie

[IanA]

P.P.S.

Aged aunt cannot remember any sporran.

Webster and a chap called Walter Haigh (d.1915 and buried Cite de Bonjean) walked to Bradford to join together.

Cheers,

Ian

[barrieduncan]

Thats quite interesting Ian, Webster was 6214 and Haigh was 6217 - I wonder who the chaps in between were and if they joined at the same time.

[Alastair]

My great uncle was Lt Daniel Martin Taylor B Company 1/7th Scottish Rifles. He joined up in 1912 and died at the Battle of Gully Ravine, Gallipoli, on 28th June 1915. I looked at the War Diary at the National Archives but he is not mentioned. I think he may be in the Regimental History but have not seen a copy. An article in The Gallipolian refers to him an the other three subalterns from B Company (Lt W Brown, 2 Lt J W MacLay, and 2 Lt A Duff) being killed whilst being led by Capt Hutchison but goes into no further detail. I have a photo of my great uncle with three other officers at Grangemouth shortly before he sailed. I would guess that they were those mentioned as being in the same Company but that is assumption. Are there any group/individual photos of 1/7th (7th) battalion out there, or further information concerning my great uncle that would assist me find out more and identify those shown in the photograph?

[Zipperheads9]

Group photo has a Drum or Pipe Majour in the left rear row standing. Intersting shot.

Nice comments by the SR NCO's .

Mark

[barrieduncan]

Alastair, can you post up a scan of the image?

[Alastair]

I have tried to add the photo within the text but it is too big. I have now made it my photo on the forum, hopefully it will be large enough. I expect that it was taken at Hamilton Barracks or somewhere in Grangemouth. It was sent as a postcard dated 10/05/1915 in Grangemouth (my great uncle's 21st birthday).

[Guest ejhornby]

Hi Barry (if you are still there)

Im looking for information on Captain Robert Downie DCM MC 5/6th Scottish Rifles KIA Nov 6 1918 near Sambre or Aulnoye. He is buried in Pont sur Sambre communal cemetery. I wondered what, if anything, the war diaries might contain to locate and describe the action in which he was killed. I'd also be interested to know if others are searching for information on Captain Downie.

Kind Regards

Eddie

[Guest ejhornby]

Dear Barry,

I may have accidentally posted this in duplicate elsewhere but Im looking for any information you might have in the diaries concerning Captain Robert Downie DCM MC whi was kia 6 Nov 1918 near aulnoye or Sambre. He is buried in pont-sur-sambre communal cemetery. I wonder if there is any record of the action he died in or specifics of location or other information that might help.

His MC was gazetted 30 July 1919 where he is recorded as having led his company in an action near Clary in which 50 Germans and 12 machine guns were captured.

I have no photographic records and wonder if anybody reading might have.

Kind Regards

Eddie

[barrieduncan]

Eddie,

Off the top of my head I think the 5/6th Bn war diary is still one of the few WW1 diaries we need to get transcribed - we do however have the 5th battalion history which I can check for any mentions. I'll get back to you tomorrow with anything I can find.

All the best,

Barrie

[barrieduncan]

Eddie,

Robert Downie won the DCM as a Lance Serjeant in 1915. The citation appeared in the Gazette edition 29252, on 3rd August, 1915 and reads as follows:

"For conspicuous gallantry and resource at Rue d’Ouvert on 15th June, 1915. During an attack across open ground, when all the Officers and Serjeants had fallen, he led the Company with great determination and marked ability under very severe fire, and eventually brought what was left of the Company out of action."

He was in the 6th Battalion when he won the DCM. He is mentioned in the Volume II of the Regimental History (1910-1933) twice. The first as a 2nd Lieutenant, when he was wounded leading B company in an attack during the Battle of Arras. The second mention was when he was killed in November 1918. I can scan/photocopy the relevent pages if you wish. As I mentioned, we dont have the diaries at the moment, but it's something we're working on - i believe the ones you're after are available on the Documents Online section of the National Archives website. PM me your email and i'll sort you out with scans.

Barrie

[barrieduncan]

After checking the 5th Bn history, it might be best if you send me your snail mail address - it would be much easier to send photocopies than have to scan and email all the pages.

Thanks

Barrie

[apwright]

Hi Barrie,

If your kind offer is still open, I'm looking for information on 15408 Pte D. Gallagher/Gallacher of 11th Scottish Rifles, killed at Doiran, 8th May 1917.

CWGC have him as Gallagher, Dines (brother of Mr. H. Gallagher of Rocktown Falcarragh Co. Donegal), and indeed his gravestone reads DINES GALLAGHER, but his MIC index appears to read DENIS Gallagher (tho' I haven't actually downloaded the card):

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...Edoc_Id=2429345

To confuse matters even further, SDGW has him as GALLACHER, DENNIS.

Do you have any record of what the regiment actually called him?

Thanks for any help!

Regards,

Adrian

[barrieduncan]

Hi Adrian,

The Regimental Roll of Honour doesn't give a first name unfortunately, but it does have his surname as Gallacker! To add further confusion, it gave his place of death as France.

It has his date of death as 14/8/18! Battalion, Service number, and Native Town (Rocktown) all the same as you have them.

The war diaries dont add anything I'm afraid.

Barrie

[apwright]

The Regimental Roll of Honour doesn't give a first name unfortunately, but it does have his surname as Gallacker! To add further confusion, it gave his place of death as France.

It has his date of death as 14/8/18! Battalion, Service number, and Native Town (Rocktown) all the same as you have them.

The war diaries dont add anything I'm afraid.

Thanks very much for looking, Barrie.

But it doesn't clarify the situation much!

I've got his medal card now, and it definitely reads GALLAGHER Dennis (although the MIC lookup has Denis). It also has "Theatre of War: (1) France", but I understand the 11th did go to France for a while first before being diverted to Salonika.

I was going to alert CWGC to the perceived error on his gravestone at Doiran Cemetery, but I'm not entirely sure what to say now - Denis/Dennis/Dines Gallagher/Gallacher/Gallacker? Is Dines perhaps an Irish version of Dennis?

I wonder what your records say for others in his battalion that died in the same battle, e.g.:

19652 Pte Clark, Robert

28169 Pte Hastings, Henry

30533 Sjt Leishman, John McInnes

14951 Pte Smith, William

Regards,

Adrian

[barrieduncan]

Hi Adrian,

The only source I have for this sort of thing is our Regimental Roll of Honour, which as you can see, isn't always that accurate.

As for the other chaps in the 11th, here is what the Roll of Honour has to say;

Clark, R - died 9/5/17 in Salonica - From Houghton-le-Spring

Hastings, H - died 8/5/17 in Salonica - From Costorphine

Leishman, J - died 9/5/17 in Macedonia - From Stonehouse

Smith, W - died 8/3/17 in Salonica - From Glasgow

Hope this helps,

Barrie

[apwright]

Thanks for that, Barrie.

CWGC has 8/5/17 for all four of them (First Battle of Doiran), and Smith as coming from Auchterarder, Perthshire ... if that's the right Smith!

I'll see what CWGC have to say.

Thanks again,

Regards,

Adrian

[barrieduncan]

For your records - the 11th Bn War Diary from 7/5/17 - 9/5/17

7/5/17

Weather - Dry & very warm. Day devoted to preparing equipment etc for moving into the line. Battalion moved from DOBROVICA RAVINE about 2230 hrs. and took over B2 & B4 trenches (W side LAKE DOIRAN) FROM 12th A & S.H. Effective strength 26 officers 915 other ranks.

8/5/17

Weather dry & warm. Our guns bombarded enemy trenches in preparation for the attack. Enemy's reply weak.

Relief was completed about 1200 hrs.

9/5/17

Weather Dry & warm.

Our heavy & field artillery bombarded enemy's trenches heavily during the day. The distribution of Companies was as follows. No. 1 - firing line - No. 4 Support line, No. 2 WOODED POINT No.3 - BASING HILL camp.

A & S.H. were on our left at 21.35 hrs. How. & Field gun barrage opened on enemy trenches and at 2120 hrs. No 1 Coy (assaulting Coy) moved into position of assembly in front of our wire. At 2130 hrs. No 4 Coy moved out also to position of assembly in front of wire.

No. 1 Coys objective was right half of enemy's trench 02 and No. 4 Coy following behind moved to the right flank to attack 01 as soon as No 1 Coy had reached enemy’s trenches.

In the field - 9/5/17 cont

Ultimate objective Line of consolidation shown on attached sketch

No 2 Coy (Support) moved out of our line at about 2145 hrs. until about 0215 9/5/17 no news was received at Bn. Hqs. regarding progress of assaulting & support Coys.

At this time CAPT. SCOUGAL (No 2 Coy) arrived at Bn. Hqs & informed the C.O. that the attack had been a failure. He & part of his Coy. had entered Bulgar trenches but had been bombed out.

The various Coys had reached their respective objectives but had been cut up and repulsed. A great deal of confusion was also occasioned by the dust & smoke caused by the bombardment.

The enemy’s bombardment was intense and his barrage on NO MAN’S LAND excellent.

About 0300 hrs a Coy of 8th R.S.F. reinforced No 3 Coy. in B2 & B4.

At about 0510 hrs orders were received to attack once more. Two Companies of the Gloucestershire Regt. had by this time taken over B4 trench.

One Coy. of the 8th R.S.F. went out from B2 following No 3 Coy. 11th S.R. The morning was very misty & this section of our line moved forward across PATTY RAVINE safely only suffering a few casualties.

The Gloucestershires however got caught by enemy M.G. fire & suffered heavily.

At 0505 hrs orders were received to withdraw this was done.

The trenches B2 & B4 were extremely difficult to launch an attack from and the one & only C.T. was blocked up very quickly, also PATTY RAVINE running nearly parallel to B2 had to be crossed, therefore the flank movement by No 4 Coy. was decided upon, to avoid this crossing.

Our casualties were as follows.

Officers killed CAPT McGhee No 4 Coy.

“ missing Lt. COOPER No 1 Coy.

“ “ 2ndLt HEPNER No 1 Coy.

“ “ Lt MITCHELL No 2 Coy.

“ wounded Capt LOW No 1 Coy.

“ “ ( to duty) 2nd Lt. SMITH No1 Coy.

“ “ 2nd Lt. CANNON No 2 Coy.

“ “ 2nd Lt. JOHNSTONE No 4 Coy.

Other Ranks

Killed 12 Missing 78 Wounded 158.

The Black Watch & Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders also suffered fairly heavy casualties.

Barrie

[janine finlayson]

Hello Barrie

I am new to the site and just happened to stumble across it whilst trying to find 'anything' about my great-grandad. Maybe you can help? or offer some advise as i am having problems tracing him.

I know that he survived ww1, having been at the somme with the 2nd scottish rifles. He isn't listed on the 1901 sensus as my father says he was abroad at this time. His name was John Owens, but having been a Scot this may not have been his 'given' name! (we believe he was born in Glasgow). not much to go on, hey!

can you give me a shove in the right direction?

many thanks, Janine

[barrieduncan]

Hi Janine,

This isn't going to be easy. I'm not sure how familiar you are with researching a soldier of the First World War, so I would recommend you read through the various sections of the Long Long Trail website, which can be found by clicking the link at the top left of this page.

I think the first thing you would need to do would be to try and confirm what his name really was - either by a birth or death certificate.

Do you think there is a chance that your g-grandad was serving with the Scottish Rifles (2nd Battalion Cameronians) during the Boer War, hence his absence from the 1901 census? If so, he should appear on the Queens South Africa or the Kings South Africa medal rolls (or both) for the Scottish Rifles. These are housed in the National Archives in London.

As for his service during the Great War, you could start by looking through the medal index cards on the National Archives website. Unfortunately many will not mention what battalion he was in, but this can usually be ascertained by the date in which he first landed in a theatre of war (assuming it is given). In this case, you would be looking for a date of entry into France on the 5th of November, 1914 - again, however, this assumes he went out to France in the 1st draft of the 2nd Battalion, there is every possibility that he went out in a later draft.

At this stage, without knowing anything concrete - it's all ifs and buts i'm afraid.

How do you know he was in the 2nd Battalion, and how do you know he was at the Somme? Do you have photographs or letters from him that might indicate this? The slightest, most insignificant looking bit of info can often be the starting point for finding out more information.

Sorry if this all a bit disjointed - it's taken me best part of 2 hours to actually finish writing this.

Barrie