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Remembered Today:

Cameronians (Scottish Rifles)


barrieduncan

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Hello there good people of Forum land, and a Merry Christmas to one and all.

I trust a certain Mr Claus was kind to you all and that everyone had a lovely time.

Seeing I was a little late in getting into the Christmas spirit, I've decided to make amends for my Scrooge-like attitude of the past couple of weeks.

As I am the only one in my office for the rest of the week, and 'proper' work is rather thin on the ground, I thought I would put my time to good use. So, for the rest of the week I am prepared to offer my time (and resources) to the good people of the Forum. If you have any Cameronian queries - post them up and I will see what can be done. We have most of the WW1 war diaries, as well as all the regimental and battalion histories, plus a few other odds and ends.

Yours in boredom,

Barrie

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Hi Barrie,

Remember - I told you that making paper clip chains would pall after a while! Have you any mentions of CSM Herbert Webster? He served in India and South Africa, returned at the start of WW1 and served until 1915 when he became RSM of an officers' cadet battalion. I have lots of photos including the Cameronians serving as mounted infantry which I will get across to you some day.

Cheers,

Ian

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Hi Ian,

There doesn't appear to be any mention of him in the Regimental History or in the war diaries. Do you know what battalion he served in during WW1?

The regimental journal didn't start until 1920 - would he have been out of the regiment by then? If you know when he died, I could check the journal in case there is an obituary for him.

Those photographs sound very interesting, wouldn't mind having a wee look at them one day :D

Barrie

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I have come across a CSM Webster, severly wounded when serving with the 5/6th Bn during the Battle of Arras, any chance of this being your man?

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post-12111-1167227599.jpgHi Barrie,

Thanks for the efforts but no, my CSM Webster left the front in 1915. He served with the 1st Battalion during his regular army days but when recalled in 1914 he was one of the 'old' NCOs who licked the 9th Battalion into shape. You will have a copy of 'A Tale of Two Captains' by Baynes & Maclean - on the photo on page 64 he is seated third from the left on the second row. I will try to attach a photo showing him as CSM.

Cheers,

Ian

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I suspect that you won't have any additional details on a soldier mentioned before on the forum, my wife's great-uncle 25939 Private 'Fred Strolin' (AKA Friedrich Strohlein) of 2nd Battalion who died on 23/10/16 and is commemorated on Thiepval. He was born in Liverpool to German parents who had emigrated from the Stuttgart area. Not sure how he ended up in the Cameronians. War Diary extracts from the action in which he was killed would be gratefully received.

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Don't know the approximate date of this photo, but the rank of CSM didn't appear until really late 1914, and as such he would have worn a single crown on his lower cuff. The large crown above three chevrons prior to the introduction of CSM's and the single crown for infantry battalions, was the rank insignia of a Colour Sgt.

Graham.

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Hi Ian,

Nice picture, cheers for posting it. We have a fair number of photographs of the 1st Battalion out in India in the 1890s/early 1900s - very possible he will be in a couple of them - trouble is trying to identify him, almost every one of them seem to have moustaches!

Do you know anything about his service in the Boer War? The 1st bn remained in India during that time, although they did send some drafts out to the 2nd who were in South Africa.

If you have a year of death for him let me know and I'll check the journal, it's usually quite for obituaries.

Barrie

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Mark, here is the extract from the 2nd Bn Diary for 23/10/1916. This was the same battle in which RSM Chalmers was killed, a man I've become extremely interested in. Out of the 6 officers of the Bn killed that day, only one has an identified grave, 2nd Lt D J Stewart, buried in Guards Cemetery. RSM Chalmers is buried in Grove Town Cemetery.

"At 2.30pm the Bn assaulted the German trench known as ZENITH trench opposite LE TRANSLOY with the 2nd Middlesex Regt on our left. Order of battle :-

1st Line B Coy ( CAPTAIN E.M. MACHARG)

D Coy (CAPTAIN T. ANSELL)

2nd Line A Coy ( 2LT V B GRAY.)

C Coy ( CAPTAIN M MALLACE.)

Both Bns gained their objective and held them in spite of severe opposition ; on our front entry into the enemy trench was only effected after the 1st wave of men were held up but the advance was carried out with the utmost gallantry and determination by all ranks under heavy artillery and M.G.fire . This success was to a great extent due to the gallantry of 2/LT FERGUSON, SGT HAWKINS and PTE MURRAY, who bombed along the German trench. 2/LT FERGUSON being responsible for the destruction of three German Machine Guns. He was unfortunately killed after clearing almost the whole front opposite the Bn. The 12th Bde of the 4th Division operated on our right and the 25th Bde on our left.

The total casualties were as follows:-

Officers Killed CAPTAINS E M MACHARG and

T ANSELL, LIEUT M F RODGER

And 2/LTS J. FERGUSON,

A BELLEW, and D.J.STEWART

Wounded 2/LTS E A J COX, C PURDIE

C M HAY and J CLARK.

Missing 2/LTS J. CARNAGHAN

and J REID

O.R. KILLED 47

WOUNDED 167

MISSING 14.

Total Casualties, 240."

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post-12111-1167234883.jpg

Hi Graham,

Thanks for the input. There is a family picture of Herbert Webster at the end of the war as a W.O. with his crown and a wound stripe on his lower sleeve. I have a postcard addressed to him while the 9th Battalion were at Bordon Camp in 1915 and it is addressed to Sgt Maj H. Webster. I attach another photo dated 10.11.1914. at Bordon signed A. ?. Cross. Might this be the RSM of the 9th Sco. Rifles? Any info Barry?

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post-12111-1167235124.jpg

Another photo of Herbert Webster on a most important duty - guarding the beer tent (and checking for bad beer) :lol:

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post-12111-1167235297.jpg

Another early one of Herbert, this time as a young private. Did the Cameronians ever wear kilts or was he just posing in borrowed plumage?

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Barrie

If you have time could you please check for CSM 5775 Richard Edmondson who was KIA 25.9.1915, believed to be 5th Battalion.

John

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post-12111-1167235754.jpg

And who are these fine specimens? It is dated Feb 1915 and is interesting for the message on the back which I'll quote in full. "Having rotten time here - rotten lot of men all the Glasgow wasters we receive - otherwise all right comfortably settled in huts and plenty of spare time as you will observe nothing else to do. No chance of us getting off to the front now all Kitcheners have to go before the Spec Reserve so I wish you luck when it comes your turn. Eastwood.

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Last photo is very, very nice and a rarity as he appears to wearing an officers pattern tunic, with stand & fall collar and officers cuff without rank, with the large crowns above. The large crown was indeed the rank of "Sgt Major" prior to the introduction of the rank "Regimental Sgt Major" and the Royal Arms rank badge worn on the cuff. He also wears the Rifle Regiment sam browne combo, probably in black leather as opposed to brown, with double brace and sword holder on the left hip.

If this photo is dated 1914, then he's probably the Sgt Major(later RSM) dated later it would be a CSM as they too were allowed to were the officers pattern SD tunic, which created some contoversy towards the end of the war. In the end the CSM's were banned from wearing officers pattern SD tunics with stand and fall collar. My instincts are saying this photo is earlier rather then later as this pattern of tunic has the officers cuff and isn't plain as I would expect on a later photo.

Graham.

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The group photo will be some of the senior NCO's of either the 3rd(Reserve)Bn or 4th(Extra Reserve)Bn,Cameronians.

The 3rd(Res)Bn, Cameronians were embodied at Hamilton in August 1914 before moving to Nigg in Cromarty where they remained until 1918. The 4th(E.R.)Bn, embodied on the same day before moving to Gourock. In April 1916 they then moved to Greenock. By 1917 they were at Haddington, East Lothian on coast defence. By 1918 they were located in Redford Barracks, Edinburgh as part of the Forth Garrison.

This holds a fascinating insight into the social make-up of a battalion with the description of their new Glasgow recruits and how a battalion of some social upstanding has been dilluted with riff-raff from the mean streets of Glasgow.

No offence meant with that last remark, it's how it would be seen by the original members of these proud battalions.

Graham.

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Ian, the image you posted of A ? Cross - I think that may be Alexander John Cross. You can decide for yourself, this is a photograph of Alexander John Cross with the rank of Captain (i'm unsure of the date but think it may be late WW1).

post-9547-1167237143.jpg

I can't find anything that actually says he was commissioned from the Ranks, but to me, they do look awfully similar. This chap was made a Temporary Lieutenant in the 9th Bn in January 1915.

What do you think?

Barrie

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Ian, the pictures of the Cameronians in kilts are new to me. The pipers wore kilts, but they wore a different pattern of cap badge too; these chaps all seem to be wearing the standard pattern badge. Can we confirm that all the cap badges in that group shot are infact Cameronian? Would you possible be able to send me a larger scan of that group shot Ian?

Barrie

P.S. I'm probably seeing things but the chap standing on the left looks quite like John Erskine VC.

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Barrie

If you have time could you please check for CSM 5775 Richard Edmondson who was KIA 25.9.1915, believed to be 5th Battalion.

John

John,

Sorry I missed you first time round. I think your chap was actually a Cameron Highlander and not a Cameronian. It can be rather confusing, and you would be surprised how many people mix them up.

Cheers,

Barrie

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Barrie,

If you get a minute can you have a look for Pte. J.D Anderson, no.40784, 2nd Bn., kia 26/3/18 ?

And this chap, Alfred Gibson, no.15780, he may be mentioned in the diary of the 12th Bn. as he drowned whilst in training in Hawick on 9th September, 1915.

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...casualty=664729

Thank you.

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The 3rd(Reserve) & 4th(Extra Reserve)Bn's are both descendant from the 2nd Royal Lanarkshire Militia Regiment of 1854, and it's more than likely that it's from them that the kilt has been handed down, even though they became part of the Cameronian family in 1881.

Graham.

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Barrie,

If you get a minute can you have a look for Pte. J.D Anderson, no.40784, 2nd Bn., kia 26/3/18 ?

And this chap, Alfred Gibson, no.15780, he may be mentioned in the diary of the 12th Bn. as he drowned whilst in training in Hawick on 9th September, 1915.

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...casualty=664729

Thank you.

Derek,

No mention by name in the war diary i'm afraid. Roll of honour doesn't give any further details either (is this the chap you were trying to ID on a war memorial?). Here is the extract from the diary describing what happened on the 25/26th of March, 1918.

"NESLE, 25th MARCH

The line held by the Battn. was from QUIQUERY on the R to the Railway on the left. It consisted of a trench (unwired) with a sunken road about 150x in rear of it. 184 Bde. held line on our R. and a Unit known as Divl. Reinforcement Battn. were supposed to be on our left.

A marshy stream thickly wooded ran from our R back towards NESLE.

At daybreak patrols confirmed that there was nobody on our left, report was made to brigade and a reply was received to the effect that the left was all right, As Germans could be seen moving around our flank in large numbers.

A Coy. under 2/LT H GRANT was turned back to form a defensive flank. At about 11a.m. a French M.G. Coy. ( 10 guns) reported to us and came into action at QUIQUERY. The battery fixed (fired) over our heads onto the NESLE Road & gave invaluable assistance.

NESLE, 25th MARCH cont

2p.m By noon the situation was critical. A Coy. after a gallant fight were driven back into the sunken road and the enemy now right on our flank kept up an intense M.G.fire on every part of our position.

No assistance was given by our artillery although the NESLE road was swarming with Germans.

Situation now desperate, enemy firing straight down sunken road. The men began to get away by small parties up the stream towards NESLE. This was the only way of escape now open. By 2.15 The last man was out of the sunken road, but many were caught by M.G. or shell fire as they went up the valley.

Most of the survivors appear to have gone into NESLE and were probably captured by the Germans who had by this time got right round. Only 7 Officers and 55 men got back to the Brigade. The gallant fight made by the battalion undoubtedly barred the road to NESLE to the enemy for several hours after the troops on our left had fallen back. It may even have saved the Brigade on our Right whose flank would have been completely turned had the Germans succeeded in working up the stream towards NESLE.

QUENELLES, 26th

9 p.m. During night 25/26 the Brigade collected on outskirts of ROYE.

Marched out to FOLIES remaining in village in support to 50th Divn. K.R.R.C. out in front, R.B. in village."

As for Gibson, I'm afriad the 12th Bn war diary is one of the few we are still waiting to get copied and transcribed. The diaries tend to start from when they first get the orders to go overseas, so it most likely won't cover their time training in the UK anyway. Sadly, he seems to have been missed out on the roll of honour :(

Barrie

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Hi Barrie,

Can you PM me your e-mail address and I can send you a full-sized scan. While I'm about it I can scan the mounted infantry as well. I corresponded very briefly with Sir John Baynes, and his father was very much involved with mounted infantry. The W.O. is certainly A.J. Cross. The signature is in ink on a shiny surface and it might have been 'J' or 'S' but the features (esp. the ears) are identical.

Incidentally, you asked about Herbert Webster's South African service - we were always led to believe he was at Ladysmith.

Cheers,

Ian

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Hi Ian,

PM will be on the way. I know for sure that Colonel MacKay, one of the Cameronian Trustees, will be most interested to see these - hopefully he will be able to shed some more light on them.

I'm heading home soon, but we can look into Webster's South African service tomorrow :)

Thanks very much,

Barrie

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Hi Barrie,

I can’t think of a more lonely place to be than in a museum on your own, but I hope that you did have a good Christmas.

Is there a posibility that you have anything on Harry J. Graham who was in the 5th Scottish Rifles, around 1910, before joining the 9th Black Watch in 1914.

He was kia 25th September 1915, Loos.

Derek (Aka 9th Black Watch) had already found some information on him.

Here again is the thread that you yourself also contributed to.

 

The information from CWGC I also have.

Thanks,

Tony

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