Insignia & ranks pipers and drummers

[Muerrisch]

Attached 42nd bn Australian c. 1917 badges ........ the earliest that I have illustrations of in wear on non sergeant-pipers. These courtesy of a Forum member, and I regret that I have lost the reference to thank him.

[FROGSMILE]

Attached 42nd bn Australian c. 1917 badges ........ the earliest that I have illustrations of in wear on non sergeant-pipers. These courtesy of a Forum member, and I regret that I have lost the reference to thank him.

Yes those are the images / badges that I inadvertently misquoted as possibly Canadian.

[Ron Abbott]

Attached 42nd bn Australian c. 1917 badges ........ the earliest that I have illustrations of in wear on non sergeant-pipers. These courtesy of a Forum member, and I regret that I have lost the reference to thank him.

Thanks Grumpy, I hadn't seen these before.

I find it interesting that the badges worn today, are almost identical to these.

It's almost as if they were taken as the prototype!

I wonder who came up with the designs in the first place.

[FROGSMILE]

Thanks Grumpy, I hadn't seen these before.

I find it interesting that the badges worn today, are almost identical to these.

It's almost as if they were taken as the prototype!

I wonder who came up with the designs in the first place.

This is why I said there is a lot more research to be done on this subject.

[Ron Abbott]

Attached 42nd bn Australian c. 1917 badges ........ the earliest that I have illustrations of in wear on non sergeant-pipers. These courtesy of a Forum member, and I regret that I have lost the reference to thank him.

Presumably from Wayne Saillard, his posts relating to the badges of the pipers of the 42nd AIF are on the first page of this thread.

Grumpy, with regard to your comment :-

Sgt Drummers and Sgt Pipers [unofficially drum major and pipe major] were substantive sergeants only [the modern practice is different, in that the appointments may now be held by Sgt, CSgt or WO II] but dressed and badged distinctively, well above their pay grade.

With regards to the more modern practice, you can add WO1 to that.

[FROGSMILE]

Presumably from Wayne Saillard, his posts relating to the badges of the pipers of the 42nd AIF are on the first page of this thread.

Grumpy, with regard to your comment :-

Sgt Drummers and Sgt Pipers [unofficially drum major and pipe major] were substantive sergeants only [the modern practice is different, in that the appointments may now be held by Sgt, CSgt or WO II] but dressed and badged distinctively, well above their pay grade.

With regards to the more modern practice, you can add WO1 to that.

I am surprised that WO1 is possible at regimental duty, especially as it is unclear when pipers were returned to the Establishment Table after the end of National Service. Presumably it would be the rank for the man selected as Queen's piper.

[Ron Abbott]

I have no idea when the first Pipe Major was of WO1 rank, but there have been a fair few over the years, albeit after the Great War. Not just the Queen's Piper but the Senior Pipe Major at the Army School of Piping as well and possibly some regimental pipers, although I can't think of any who were WO1 when with the battalion. Perhaps it is just for those who are Senior Pipe Major, British Army. My own piping instructor when I was a lad (P/M Angus MacDonald, Scots Guards) was a WO1 as was the son of my godfather (P/M Gavin Stoddart, RHF).

P/M Evan MacRae, P/M Jock Allan, P/M Bruce Hitchings, P/M Joe Rafferty, P/M Davey Aitken, P/M John MacLellan all spring to mind etc. etc. There have been others and not just in the British Army but in the Canadian Forces as well. With regard to the Canadians, I think there may have been some whilst serving with the battalion (whether as WO1 or the Canadian 'CWO').

[Muerrisch]

Back to the Great War. Sergeants only, it seems.

There was a way forward for "music-majors", which was usually via colour-sergeant and then CSM/ WO II. One who springs to mind is Drum-Major 4690 WJ Dyer MM MSM, RWF

[FROGSMILE]

I have no idea when the first Pipe Major was of WO1 rank, but there have been a fair few over the years, albeit after the Great War. Not just the Queen's Piper but the Senior Pipe Major at the Army School of Piping as well and possibly some regimental pipers, although I can't think of any who were WO1 when with the battalion. Perhaps it is just for those who are Senior Pipe Major, British Army. My own piping instructor when I was a lad (P/M Angus MacDonald, Scots Guards) was a WO1 as was the son of my godfather (P/M Gavin Stoddart, RHF).

P/M Evan MacRae, P/M Jock Allan, P/M Bruce Hitchings, P/M Joe Rafferty, P/M Davey Aitken, P/M John MacLellan all spring to mind etc. etc. There have been others and not just in the British Army but in the Canadian Forces as well. With regard to the Canadians, I think there may have been some whilst serving with the battalion (whether as WO1 or the Canadian 'CWO').

Within the British Army of recent times WO1 PM as Queen's Piper and at the School of Piping and Highland Drumming would make sense but I doubt any within battalions.

Having attended many 'manpower liability arbitration tribunals' I know how difficult it is to get the funding for an 'extra' WO1.

[FROGSMILE]

Back to the Great War. Sergeants only, it seems.

There was a way forward for "music-majors", which was usually via colour-sergeant and then CSM/ WO II. One who springs to mind is Drum-Major 4690 WJ Dyer MM MSM, RWF

Yes, that was my understanding too Grumpy.

[Ron Abbott]

Purportedly Pipe-Major Francis Frederick Ross (1889 to 1960), who was Pipe-Major of the 1st Bn. Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders c1918/1919 to 1925.

 

I don't have a specific date for the photo.

 

Put on here for possible future reference re. the badge on his arm. 

 

 

 

[Muerrisch]

Intriguing.

 

The date might even be within the Great War period I think.

My reasons:

1. Unlikely the post would be given to a man with no active service

2. Economy jacket .......... surely a pipe-major would grab the first "proper" one he could get

3. No medal ribbons [and see 1. above].

 

These ornate badge designs, unique to each regiment, evolved to massive grand pieces by the time "British Proficiency Badges" was written, and a right headache they were to research.