Insignia & ranks pipers and drummers

[Muerrisch]

Tom: correct quotation, wrong deduction I think.

CRs only specify who received how many of each item and did not describe quality, colour etc.

As an example, there are in PVCN different quality and cost tunics, dress, Foot Guards, for the following:

WO and Staff Sergeants

Sergeants

Rank and File

Drummers

but they are all only down for one tunic in CR.

[Tom A McCluskey]

Grumpy,

I wasn't aware that the Priced Vocation of Clothing and Necessaries had more of the details in it, so that has answered one of my own curiosities. Thanks.

Aye

Tom McC

[Muerrisch]

I don't have Guards or Scots to hand but this is a page from Priced Vocabulary Clothing Necessaries 1915.

sorry quality not too good but tunics are second half of a full page, just for regiments with blue facings.

[Tom A McCluskey]

Grumpy,

Thanks very much for posting the above.

Aye

Tom McC

[Muerrisch]

I don't have Guards or Scots to hand but this is a page from Priced Vocabulary Clothing Necessaries 1915.

[Joe Sweeney]

Tom/Grumpy,

Here is the page on Tunics for Scottish Regiments (excluding Pipers). Posting the pages on the Guards is not worthwhile (detail is referenced elsewhere) as you would need pages out of the Clothing Registries too.

No specific pipers badges in the PVCN.

Joe Sweeney

[FROGSMILE]

Frogsmile,

A good example of the Book and reality is the description of the Sash in clothing regulations 1914, it had Warrant Officers, Staff Sergeants and Sergeants wearing the same sash. In reality, in certain regiments, the Warrant Officers and other SNCO appointment holders wearing the Officers silk sash which was worn on the opposite shoulder. There is a good picture of the 2nd Battalion the HLI at Aldershot on this link:

http://www.lightinfantry.org.uk/regiments/.../high_photo.htm

http://www.lightinfantry.org.uk/images/Wnt_Offs__Sgts.jpg

Scroll down to the picture of the Sergeants Mess, and those with the silk sashes can be clearly seen.

Aye

Tom McC

Cracking picture Tom, looks to me like the RSM, Band Sgt Maj and 3 QMSs wearing officers' pattern silk sashes, but that is supposition because I cannot see the badges of rank or other dress distinctions clearly enough. If I am right it would fit in with what I have long felt, that the Sgt Maj (RSM), Band Sgt Maj and the battalion level QMSs were given superior dress, for the most part just one level short of that worn by officers but including silk sashes. I imagine this pic 'might' be the RSM, Band Sgt Maj, RQMS, Schoolmaster (ranking as QMS), and Musketry QMS (all with 'swords, staff serjeant'), but that is pure speculation. I do not believe the CSMs and CQMSs/CSgts are amongst that group of 5.

[Muerrisch]

Joe, thanks: no pipers badges traced Great War except some extremely interesting Australian ones.

I don't want to keep niggling at FROGSMILE but:

Instr. Muskeetry was a CSjt appointment: no establishment for another QMS.

Also, at date of photo, CSM and CQMS were not in existence as both tasks fell to the CSjt.

[FROGSMILE]

Joe, thanks: no pipers badges traced Great War except some extremely interesting Australian ones.

I don't want to keep niggling at FROGSMILE but:

Instr. Muskeetry was a CSjt appointment: no establishment for another QMS.

Also, at date of photo, CSM and CQMS were not in existence as both tasks fell to the CSjt.

Grumpy, point taken re CSM and CQMS, a genuine slip, I am well aware that the 8 CSgts were re-classified as 4 CSMs and 4 CSgts in 1915. As regards, the Musketry SNCO, I believe I have seen somewhere (recently) that the more senior could rank as QMS, but I shall have to look that out and could well be confusing it with the Musketry QMSs at the School of Musketry. If it is not the Musketry SNCO then I believe it could be some other QMS at battalion level, most probably the Orderly Room QMS, who I seem to recall was one of the First Class Staff Serjeants to which I referred earlier. I do understand and accept your rationale for 'niggling' but with the corrections duly made I stand by my assessment and feel that the HLI picture illustrates my theory quite well.

[Muerrisch]

2nd RWF India c. 1904, wearing 'best' frocks.

lets see if any use:

not too good.

However, 2 WO [one still wearing his CSjts badge, just promoted] wearing officer-style caps, and seven men wearing staff cap and staff-quality tunic.

Lets see:

SM, Bandmaster as WO,

QMS and ORQMS as First class staff sjt

schoolmaster?

CSGT Instr Musketry

Drum major

band sergeant

serjeant cook

pioneer sjt ....

One of these at least is only a serjeant.

[Tom A McCluskey]

Hi All,

Joe, great and thanks for posting

Frogsmile, thanks

All,

I don't know when the Piper's badge came into force. I don't ever recall seeing British-Scottish regimental pipers wearing the badge during the war. Attached is a picture of the Black Watch, I think after the Second World War in Germany. It looks like the Pipe Major is possibly wearing a bagpipe above his 4 chevrons.

NOTE: The Ribbons on the Pipe Major's kilt

Aye

Tom McC

[Tom A McCluskey]

Erwin,

I have not seen the sash worn with Service Dress on the Drum Major. If you look at my post number 40, there is a picture of the 2nd Seaforth Highlanders: the Drummie is not wearing a sash. At a guess, I would have thought that the sashes would be at the Depot with the Full Dress.

Also, here is a picture of the Drum & Pipe Majors of the 4th Black Watch, I think in Dundee. Again the Drummie is not wearing a sash.

Aye

Tom McC

[Muerrisch]

The earliest sustainable date for a pipe badge [albeit in wreath] is probably Seaforths 1881

KOSB 1908

BW 1925

all these pipe major only and no suggestion of wear on SD of course..-

earliest pipes on their own I can more-or-less vouch for was A&SH 1941, brass badge on red felt.

All the above from regimental museums when I was writing my book. The 1941 date is from the man who wore the badge and ended up as a Colonel.

Official intro 1949.

By the way, when I read of the spranging machine I looked at the calendar! No, not early April yet.

[FROGSMILE]

2nd RWF India c. 1904, wearing 'best' frocks.

lets see if any use:

not too good.

However, 2 WO [one still wearing his CSjts badge, just promoted] wearing officer-style caps, and seven men wearing staff cap and staff-quality tunic.

Lets see:

SM, Bandmaster as WO,

QMS and ORQMS as First class staff sjt

schoolmaster?

CSGT Instr Musketry

Drum major

band sergeant

serjeant cook

pioneer sjt ....

One of these at least is only a serjeant.

Great pic Grumpy, one of my CSMs in the early days was from the 2nd Battalion (resurrected in 1950s). I don't want to lose sight of my theory so just to be clear, I do not doubt the wearing of Staff Serjeants caps and tunics by 2nd Class Staff Serjeants, I am referring purely to the silk sash, which for non Scottish regiments was (and still is) different to those in the HLI pic and, in style/appearance, almost identical to the worsted pattern except when viewed in colour. It is the silken sash and that only, that I believe was worn by the 1st Class Staff Serjeants and the Sgt Maj, alone, with all others wearing the worsted. One can perhaps (?) tell on a magnified pic but that which you have posted is insufficiently clear for me to pick out the battalion level QMSs and Sgt Maj from the rest.

[FROGSMILE]

Erwin,

I have not seen the sash worn with Service Dress on the Drum Major. If you look at my post number 40, there is a picture of the 2nd Seaforth Highlanders: the Drummie is not wearing a sash. At a guess, I would have thought that the sashes would be at the Depot with the Full Dress.

Also, here is a picture of the Drum & Pipe Majors of the 4th Black Watch, I think in Dundee. Again the Drummie is not wearing a sash.

Aye

Tom McC

I don't think sashes were worn with SD until between the 2 World wars. Pre WW1 it was a dress item and when Full Dress was withdrawn (less Household Troops) in 1914 it probably ceased to be worn. Post WW1 there were efforts to brighten up drab uniforms and I think it was around then (1920s) that the sash started to be worn with SD. Can anyone else comment on this?

[Tom A McCluskey]

Frogsmile,

Thanks for that, Erwin was asking about whether the Drum Major wore a sash or not, in Service Dress. I haven't seen any pictures of it being worn, so thanks for clarifying this.

Aye

Tom McC

[FROGSMILE]

By the way, when I read of the spranging machine I looked at the calendar! No, not early April yet.

Oh ye 'Doubting Thomas'! Spranging is an ancient art carried out on a loom:

http://home.vicnet.net.au/~medieval/pastco...graphs2004.html

[Muerrisch]

Trust Frogsmile has a top-quality photo 2nd RWF India by email now to mull over.

[BatterySergeantMajor]

Erwin,

Also, here is a picture of the Drum & Pipe Majors of the 4th Black Watch, I think in Dundee. Again the Drummie is not wearing a sash.

Aye

Tom McC

This is developping to an extremely interesting thread! Tom, from which period is this photo? I notice that the Drummie is wearing a sword (what type would that be?) and that his badge is on top of his chevrons. On another photo of a LCpl his drum badge is just on top of his chevron on the left upper sleeve. In post 21, I note that the PM wears 4 chevrons on both sleeves.

As we hope to sew the badges this or next week I want to check if everything will be correct the first time. Former posts made it clear that the drum should be just above the chevrons for DM and other NCO's. I had the impression that the chevrons should be only one sided, also for the DM but this seems to be wrong.

Erwin

[Muerrisch]

on service dress [khaki drab Great War period that is] all rank badges were to be worn on both sleeves.

Your Drum Major does not have to have the drum on both sleeves but exactly as per the BW photo if you go for both.

All other drummers, upper right only, and above rank badges if worn.

The sword would be be the 'sword, £WO and staff sergeants ' pattern for English, Welsh and Irish Line, but very possibly a Scottish version for the Highland regiments. Tom will tell you!.

[BatterySergeantMajor]

Thanks Grumpy

Our DM had the chevrons on both sides but removed one side after he was told by a modern DM that this was "not done"! I had my doubts about this and am happy to be able to prove that he was correct after all!

And off course I ment right upper sleeve in stead of left, I described it from the point of view of an onlooker which was stupid.

Does someone has a photo or is able to commend a website where I could see the specification of the sword?

Erwin

[Muerrisch]

The 'right arm only' rule was/ is for full dress.

PM Tom about the sword I suggest.

PS we do all want to see some good photos of the end product!

[FROGSMILE]

Trust Frogsmile has a top-quality photo 2nd RWF India by email now to mull over.

Thanks for super photo Grumpy. Not had time to make more than a cursory glance yet. Am sending this quickly from my work desk at Pirbright (erstwhile Guards Depot). At first glance it looks as if my response will be inconclusive, as unlike the HLI pic there is no difference in appearance of the silk sash for non-Scottish/Highland (not sure if Lowland wore same pattern then?) and the worsted sash, thus making it difficult to be positive about who, is wearing what. The only thing I did notice is that the Sgt Maj front left (as you look) and still wearing CSgt's badge of rank, appears to have a wider sash, but that may be an optical illusion. I have seen nothing yet to change my view and the HLI pic served only to strengthen it. I will be interested to see more and hope to research further, as time goes on. The Green Howards museum in Richmond, Yorks, has a particularly fine collection of uniforms and I am wondering whether they will have anything of interest.

[Muerrisch]

A pleasure! I agree sash differentiation v. difficult on photos. I even wonder if RWF bothered: next time at Caernarvon .............

Serjeant Major Michael Murphy also has a rather wider chest than most! Nickname 'The Mayor of Bois Grenier' in 1915, having been commissioned, to his disgust.

I am often in the Green Howards Museum when I visit my son nearby. Good museum.

[Tom A McCluskey]

Erwin,

For Highland Regiments, the sword would be a Staff Sergeant's basket-hilted Broadsword, often referred to as a Claymore (a real claymore was about 6 foot long and cross-hilted). The exception to this, I think was the 1st Battalion Highland Light Infantry, who had a cross hilt. I'm pretty sure the Scottish Rifles used a Rifle's sword - Barrie Duncan should be able to confirm this. Lowland Regiments, by this time, I think all used the Highland Broadsword.

Hope this helps

Aye

Tom McC