BatterySergeantMajor Posted 8 February , 2007 Author Share Posted 8 February , 2007 I am reading this discussion between two specialists with great interest and have learned a lot. New attempt to draw a conclusion: - pipe and drum majors were sergeants, not C Sgts (SSgts didn't exist) - a pipe major wore three chevrons (point down), the pipe badge didn't exist or was extremely rare in that period - a drum major had three chevrons (point down) and a drum above the chevrons Question: was this drum a woven badge or a metal one (or both)? I assume that there were only two sergeants ( one pipe and one drum major) in a Bn band? Erwin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatterySergeantMajor Posted 8 February , 2007 Author Share Posted 8 February , 2007 And (old discussion) whom should write Serjeant and not Sergeant. Erwin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom A McCluskey Posted 8 February , 2007 Share Posted 8 February , 2007 Erwin, He was a Sgt equivalent and wore 4 stripes, point facing up the arm, on the forearm. I have not found a pipe badge in clothing regulations nor is Pipe Major McLeod wearing one. I have not seen further editions of cloting regulations beyond 1914, and I don't think I have seen the badge on Scottish Pipers during the First World War. However, the badge worn by the Australian looks similar to the one worn by Pipe Majors nowadays. Aye Tom McC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 9 February , 2007 Share Posted 9 February , 2007 I too have no evidence of a pipe badge in our period, other than an Australian one. Still, we did win the one-dayer today! Oh yes: both gilding metal and worsted drum badges existed. Metal ones seem to have been favoured on service dress and the hot weather equivalents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom A McCluskey Posted 9 February , 2007 Share Posted 9 February , 2007 Erwin, Here is the bit from Clothing Regulations 1914. If you look at Sergeant Drummer, Sergeant Piper, and Sergeant Bugler, you will see that they have a 4 bar chevron (4 stripes); Sergeant Drummer (Drum Major - Scottish) with a drum above and Sergeant Bugler with a bugle: Sergeant Piper (Pipe Major) with no badge. From King's Regulations 1914, you can see he is the equivalent of a Sergeant. From Clothing Regulations 1914, you can see that he wears a 4 bar chevron. Hopefully, this clarifys things. Aye Tom McC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom A McCluskey Posted 10 February , 2007 Share Posted 10 February , 2007 Erwin, Here is a picture of the 2nd Bn The Seaforth Highlanders in France 1918. Note the chevrons and drum on the Drum Major's arm. Interesting that the photo is 1918 and they still have the smaller, and neater, Balmoral bonnet as opposed to the Tam O'Shanter. Note khaki hose tops. Hope this helps Aye Tom McC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarylW Posted 10 February , 2007 Share Posted 10 February , 2007 Is this any use? A picture showing the Drum insignia? My great uncle, who was in a drum band, and a Drummer boy in the Boer War Taken in the period between Boer war and Great War (maybe in Kamptee) Caryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 10 February , 2007 Share Posted 10 February , 2007 superb photo. shows the elaborate 'dress' version of the drum, often bright yellow, blue and red, sometimes involving gold wire. The LCpl also has two good conduct badges [total either 6 or 5 years, depending on date of photo] and the crossed rifles of the marksman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarylW Posted 10 February , 2007 Share Posted 10 February , 2007 Thanks again Grumpy, yes he was a marksman Didn't realise that was the dress version of the drum, wrongly assumed it was a warm climate uniform (where are the crossed rifles please, can't see them?) I'm trying to date the photo, he was a sergeant in the Great War, maybe promoted from L/Cpl shortly before (I'm researching dates now) This is him "Thomas P Carney 5748, enlisted in 1898, he served with the 2nd Battalion during it's early service in the Boer War for which he was awarded the Queen's Medal with 5 clasps, and later the DCM as a drummer boy. Drummer T. Carney 5748 granted 2nd Good Conduct Badge 17.12.1904 (Snapper July 1906) Drm Carney C Company Marksman (Snapper Aug 1906). During the Great War he was with the 2nd Battalion in France as a Sergeant, later CSM". Obviously some gaps there This is a photo from the Snapper of the EYR drum band. Aldershot 1903 (courtesy of Charles) Four of my great uncles are in the photo . Some of the other boys in the drum band pictured here lost their lives in the Great War Caryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 10 February , 2007 Share Posted 10 February , 2007 The white uniform was Indian Pattern Whites: the summer equivalent of 'Tunic Order', the smartest and most expensive parade wear. The crossed rifles can be discerned above good conduct badges if you know what you are looking for! The drummers 1903 are, strictly 'the Corps of Drums', sixteen, sometimes augmented. The uniform is 'tunic order' [ie best], with drummers' lace and wings. There is no need for drum badges [it did not stop some units adding them] because the men are dressed as .... drummers!. 'Boys' is a bit of a misnomer, because most drummers were adults, and paid more than a private soldier. Although all the Corps are 'drummers' [two to a company], when they parade as a corps, some parade with fifes .... these are the chaps without cross-belts. All drummers were competent on the bugle, and usually wore them on a long cord under the right arm at hip level. Clearly the photo. in whites is after his second GC badge and his DCM, but difficult to pin down further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarylW Posted 10 February , 2007 Share Posted 10 February , 2007 Wow, thank you Grumpy. A mine of information, as always I can just see the edges of the crossed rifles now, hadn't noticed them before Caryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatterySergeantMajor Posted 13 February , 2007 Author Share Posted 13 February , 2007 This is a mine of information indeed. Grumpy, I notice that the drum on the Cpl's uniform is sewn between the chevrons and not higher as I would have expected. Tom, this is a superb photo! But every time you reply this results in a new question. Here I go: the baton of the Sergeant- drummer is not the large model as you see often used in pipe bands. Was this a kind of a "field baton"? Yours Aye Erwin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Thompson Posted 13 February , 2007 Share Posted 13 February , 2007 Erwin, Post reply 20 from Drummer as me baffled unless this is an American band then I usually associate the short Drum Majors Baton(forgot the correct name for it), with the bands of the Light Infantry, due to there quick marching. I have seen the KOYLI and Ghurkas bands a few times and always with the short Baton. Cheers Roger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drummer Posted 13 February , 2007 Share Posted 13 February , 2007 Roger... The photo I posted is of the Corps of Drums, 1/Royal Munster Fusiliers.. Regards from USA, drummer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Thompson Posted 13 February , 2007 Share Posted 13 February , 2007 Roger... The photo I posted is of the Corps of Drums, 1/Royal Munster Fusiliers.. Regards from USA, drummer Drummer, I do appologise as I haven't been posting long, the uniform identities is strange to me as I was never in the forces, but was in a Drum and Bugle Band and the Baton in full was called the Mace. Cheers Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drummer Posted 13 February , 2007 Share Posted 13 February , 2007 Hello Roger...I am hardly an expert on the British Army. In fact, I just found out that the Corps of Drums and The Band are two different entities (thanks, Grumpy). I do believe, however, that what the Sergeant Drummer is holding is in fact called a Mace. What it might be called in a Scots' Pipe and Drum Corps could be different... drummer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 14 February , 2007 Share Posted 14 February , 2007 er er ..... I am in a rush so cannot look it up but I think officially it was a staff or stave! There was an official provision for each battalion of regulars but I doubt if they used that, and provided an ornate one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom A McCluskey Posted 14 February , 2007 Share Posted 14 February , 2007 Erwin, I think it is a Drum Major's stick (Not a Mace) I don't think it is ornate as the one on this website: http://www.qcmilitaria.com/bandspage.htm Aye Tom McC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 14 February , 2007 Share Posted 14 February , 2007 'Staff, Sergeant Drummers' is the official description in PVCN of our period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatterySergeantMajor Posted 6 January , 2008 Author Share Posted 6 January , 2008 We want to buy drummers badges for our "Passchendaele 1917 Pipes & Drums" but is seems to be quite difficult to find original specification. I found the following on a site of a certain Kelly. Can anyone adivise if this would be an acceptable compromise for a 1917-period dressed band (service dress)? If so, which would be the best choice? Erwin This is the first option And this is the second Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatterySergeantMajor Posted 7 January , 2008 Author Share Posted 7 January , 2008 Well, if no-one has an idea we'll go for the khaki model which seems to be nearest to the original to me. Thanks Erwin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 8 January , 2008 Share Posted 8 January , 2008 Well, if no-one has an idea we'll go for the khaki model which seems to be nearest to the original to me. Thanks Erwin Why not use the brass version? It would be much easier to obtain several period examples, or just buy one and have it copied (know a few people who would be able to do this). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 8 January , 2008 Share Posted 8 January , 2008 avoid your left-hand example: its very much like the Guards' variation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatterySergeantMajor Posted 8 January , 2008 Author Share Posted 8 January , 2008 It IS the Guards Drum, this possible solution was born out of despair! At this moment the suggestion to go for metal ones might be the best one although I haven't found any photo's of brass drum worn on the service dress. I would be interested if you can quote any useful sources to buy such metal badges? Thanks Erwin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom A McCluskey Posted 8 January , 2008 Share Posted 8 January , 2008 Erwin, PM me an address. Aye Tom McC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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