Insignia & ranks pipers and drummers

[FROGSMILE]

I even wonder if RWF bothered .............

I agree. Army hugely pragmatic in dress matters. That said, in India things could be knocked up (copied) in just about every bazaar going, especially where textiles were concerned. As you say, it will be interesting to see what 'Caernarvon' thinks but I am not holding my breath. With but a few exceptions I have not found much interest amongst museum staff about matters of minutiae regarding dress.

[Muerrisch]

I have to confess that for the period 1898 to 1914 I am Caernarfon's expert on RWF other ranks clothing! Thats Line, VF/TF and Militia/SR.

Sad.

[FROGSMILE]

I have to confess that for the period 1898 to 1914 I am Caernarfon's expert on RWF other ranks clothing! Thats Line, VF/TF and Militia/SR.

Sad.

Have you not heard that an 'Ex' is a has been and a 'spurt' is a drip under pressure ? ; - ) Sorry, could not resist that.

[Muerrisch]

or someone who knows more and more about less and less until finally he knows everything about nothing.

Whatever.

[Tom A McCluskey]

Erwin,

Here is a picture of a Drum Major, in Aldershot (pre-war)

Aye

Tom McC

[Tom A McCluskey]

Erwin,

I forgot to day that Black Watch Drum Major in Dundee is pre-war. Here is a good picture of a Seaforth Highlander Pipe Major in Review Order.

Aye

Tom McC

[Tom A McCluskey]

Additionally,

Here is a smart and unusual photo of a Piper and a Drummer from the Gordon Highlanders. It shows some good dress details. The piper looks like he is possibly Anglo-Indian.

Aye

Tom McC

[BatterySergeantMajor]

Hi

In one of the threads about uniforms of Scottish regiments, someone posted a photo of a Scottish Regiment (I think BW) wearing a bearskin or feather bonnet on the service dress. If my memory serves me well it was at the occasion of a strike (1912?), probably the photo was posted by Tom or Joe. Alas I cannot find the correct thread anymore. Can anyone help?

Erwin

[4thGordons]

not sure how I missed this thread earlier!

Great pic. Tom - any idea of the date of it?

Here is my contribution: another Gordon Piper with decent uniform detail.

Chris

[4thGordons]

Here is another one - closer to the rank badge question:

This is the 1/7th Gordon Hghrs leaving Culter on the 6th of August 1914

It may be belmishes on the original but it loks to me as though there might be badges of various sorts on several of these men. I will try a high res scan:

Just to rattle one ongoing can of worms one of the pipers here has a diced Glengarry!!

[BatterySergeantMajor]

Extremely interesting photo! I notice the DM has sword AND a small mace (it looks to large to be swagger stick).

Erwin

[Neil B]

In answer to this and also further back....a parade cane used for route marches and the like by Drm M's & Bugle M's as the STAFF would be a bit cumbersome fpo the Drum's side, so two answers in one. Other canes seen often perhaps....Co's Orderly's cane, Provost Sgt's or Orderly Sgt's canes, NCO's walking STICK and the swagger CANE.... notice the terms on the last two. Terminoligy taken from one of the makers established in 1810 but now just ticking over with Indian help I believe?

Extremely interesting photo! I notice the DM has sword AND a small mace (it looks to large to be swagger stick).

Erwin

[BigT]

I believe that to be a Pipe Major, you are required to have an Army Piping Qualification.

[drummer]

Erwin...

I think this might be the thread...

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...=62996&st=0

try page two..

It was one of the most enjoyable in a Forum full of great information and photos...

drummer

[rgalley]

Here is another one - closer to the rank badge question:

This is the 1/7th Gordon Hghrs leaving Culter on the 6th of August 1914

Just to rattle one ongoing can of worms one of the pipers here has a diced Glengarry!!

Stirrer!!

I venture that the piper with the diced glengarry is one of those who would normally be serving as an infantryman and would therefore wear the appropriate (diced) headgear. There seem to be only 2 pipers present in this photo, so perhaps it was a case of needs must on what was a significant occasion.

Alternatively it might be another example of having to wear whatever's available

Great photo, thanks

[Tom A McCluskey]

Chris,

Apologies for not getting back to you sooner, but I have been incommunicado for a number of weeks now. The picture of the Piper and Drummer I would say is sometime between the Boer War and the First World War.

Aye

Tom McC

[Ron Abbott]

Back in WW1 and before, it was not just senior NCOs who were given Pipe Major appointment. There were also warrant officers.

The upturned four chevrons were worn by Pipe Majors at least as far back as the 1860s and those who were warrant officers would wear their rank above the chevrons.

'Bagpipe' badges can be seen being worn on Pipe Majors ceremonial/No. 1 uniforms circa WW1 and also on khaki and not just with a wreath surrounding them.

I recall seeing photos of Pipe Major Wullie Gray c1916 to 18 in khaki wearing a bagpipe embroidered badge without the wreath above his chevrons.

In some regiments (the Gordons being one) the regimental badge can be seen sewn above the four chevrons.

However, I can't recall seeing photos from that era in which pipers (with the exception of the P/M) having had 'bagpipe' badges on their arm/s.

[Ron Abbott]

Just came across a photo of Pipe Major James Robertson of the 1st Bn. Gordons taken 'about 1920' wearing service dress and a pipers badge can clearly be seen above his four chevrons. The photo is on page 16 of the Volume II of the Gordon Highlanders Collection of Bagpipe Music with the 'about 1920' comment.

Whether the photo was taken in 1920 or not, Robertson himself was P/M from 1919 to 1924.....so it was presumably taken sometime between then.

However, that is only in service dress.

Photos of him in ceremonial uniform show that he is wearing an embroidered Gordon Highlanders badge above the four chevrons, as do the Pipe Majors before him.

The pipers badge in service dress appears to be brass or at least a metal of some form or other, rather than cloth.

I've gone through the other regimental collections of bagpipe music, but can't find another similar photo, however in the Royal Scots Collection there is a photo of Pipe Major MacCallum dated to 1898 in which he is wearing a crown above his four chevrons and another of Pipe Major GS Allan (1st Bn 1909 to 1919 and 2nd Bn 1921 to 1930) also wearing what appears to be a crown above his four chevrons.

The Scots Guards Collection (Volume 1) also contains a photo of Pipe Major A Ross (1st Bn), purportedly taken c1912 in which he is very clearly wearing a crown above his four chevrons........and a photo of Pipe Major Ewan Henderson (from 1866) wearing a crown above his four chevrons.

There is also a photo which has done the rounds of Pipe Major Duncan MacDougall (2nd Perthshire Volunteers) purporting to be from 1896 in which he is wearing a pipers badge above his four chevrons. However he is ceremonial and not service dress. Likewise for P/M John Wilson of the Tyneside Scottish, a photo apparently taken during the Great War. Another well circulated photo is that of Pipe Major John Ballock (KOSB) in 1899 clearly wearing a crown above his four chevrons,

On the issue of sashes, I have a question........does anyone know when the practice of Pipe Majors/Serjeants wearing the sash on the opposite side started? (e.g. top left down to bottom right). The earliest I've noted is a photo of P/M John MacDonald (72nd) wearing it that way in 1854.

[FROGSMILE]

Back in WW1 and before, it was not just senior NCOs who were given Pipe Major appointment. There were also warrant officers.

The upturned four chevrons were worn by Pipe Majors at least as far back as the 1860s and those who were warrant officers would wear their rank above the chevrons.

'Bagpipe' badges can be seen being worn on Pipe Majors ceremonial/No. 1 uniforms circa WW1 and also on khaki and not just with a wreath surrounding them.

I recall seeing photos of Pipe Major Wullie Gray c1916 to 18 in khaki wearing a bagpipe embroidered badge without the wreath above his chevrons.

In some regiments (the Gordons being one) the regimental badge can be seen sewn above the four chevrons.

However, I can't recall seeing photos from that era in which pipers (with the exception of the P/M) having had 'bagpipe' badges on their arm/s.

Ron, there were no warrant officers in the Infantry before 1881 (only Conductors were before that for just a few years) and when introduced there were only a maximum of three in a battalion. The Sergeant Major was one (now RSM), the Bandmaster was the next. The third would only be if the Schoolmaster was in his last few years for pension and thus ranked as such.

What you are thinking of is Battalion Staff (Sergeants) which comprised all of a battalion's specialists, of which the pipe, bugle, drum major was one.

As regards pipers badges these were regimental and apart from the four inverted chevrons varied between Scottish regiments. The bagpipes badge is a post war introduction in the British Army PVCN, as Grumpy will tell you, although it was seen worn by some Dominion regiments (Canadian from memory) during WW1.

[Ron Abbott]

Ron, there were no warrant officers in the Infantry before 1881 (only Conductors were before that for just a few years) and when introduced there were only a maximum of three in a battalion. The Sergeant Major was one (now RSM), the Bandmaster was the next. The third would only be if the Schoolmaster was in his last few years for pension and thus ranked as such.

What you are thinking of is Battalion Staff (Sergeants) which comprised all of a battalion's specialists, of which the pipe, bugle, drum major was one.

As regards pipers badges these were regimental and apart from the four inverted chevrons varied between Scottish regiments. The bagpipes badge is a post war introduction in the British Army PVCN, as Grumpy will tell you, although it was seen worn by some Dominion regiments (Canadian from memory) during WW1.

Thanks Frogsmile.

However, irrespective of Grumpy's informative posts (and they are indeed that), the very first posting in the thread asked, "What insignia did the battalion's pipers and drummers wear? Does anyone has pictures of these insignia?"

Not what was official or otherwise, but what was worn.

That was the purpose of my posts above.

You will find photos of Pipe Majors wearing nothing except the four chevrons but will also find photos of them with crowns, bagpipes or regimental badges above the four chevrons (and from around that era), some before others and normally on ceremonial, but as indicated also sometimes on service dress.

In his subsequent posts, Grumpy specifically mentions pipers distinctive badges and requesting evidence of such prior to WW2. His first post in the thread includes, "Pipers did not wear a distinctive badge until much later".

OK, the definition of 'much later' could mean different things, but clearly Pipe Major Robertson was wearing a distinctive pipers badge on service dress c1920 and possibly as early as 1919 and the photo of Pipe Major Wullie Gray (2nd Argylls) was of him in service dress and was purportedly taken in 1916. Given that he'd been Pipe Major of the police in 1913 and went back to the Glasgow Police in 1919, I don't doubt the dating of the photo. It was certainly taken during the Great War era.

These photos are readily accessible.

As an aside, I recently came across an excellent photo of a Pipe Major from the 1850s wearing his four chevrons pointing down.

Please.....I'm not trying to start some sort of disagreement or similar......merely interested in promulgating some of the things that I've come across.

I would also be grateful if anyone knows the answer to my own question above....."On the issue of sashes, I have a question........does anyone know when the practice of Pipe Majors/Serjeants wearing the sash on the opposite side started? (e.g. top left down to bottom right). The earliest I've noted is a photo of P/M John MacDonald (72nd) wearing it that way in 1854."

Although the majority appear to wear them in the fashion of commissioned officers, I've also come across photos of Pipe Majors/Serjeants (British Army) wearing them as per 'non piping' senior NCOs/WOs, there appears to have been a mix of styles over the years.

Thanks.

[FROGSMILE]

Thanks Frogsmile.

However, irrespective of Grumpy's informative posts (and they are indeed that), the very first posting in the thread asked, "What insignia did the battalion's pipers and drummers wear? Does anyone has pictures of these insignia?"

Not what was official or otherwise, but what was worn.

That was the purpose of my posts above.

You will find photos of Pipe Majors wearing nothing except the four chevrons but will also find photos of them with crowns, bagpipes or regimental badges above the four chevrons (and from around that era), some before others and normally on ceremonial, but as indicated also sometimes on service dress.

In his subsequent posts, Grumpy specifically mentions pipers distinctive badges and requesting evidence of such prior to WW2. His first post in the thread includes, "Pipers did not wear a distinctive badge until much later".

OK, the definition of 'much later' could mean different things, but clearly Pipe Major Robertson was wearing a distinctive pipers badge on service dress c1920 and possibly as early as 1919 and the photo of Pipe Major Wullie Gray (2nd Argylls) was of him in service dress and was purportedly taken in 1916. Given that he'd been Pipe Major of the police in 1913 and went back to the Glasgow Police in 1919, I don't doubt the dating of the photo. It was certainly taken during the Great War era.

These photos are readily accessible.

As an aside, I recently came across an excellent photo of a Pipe Major from the 1850s wearing his four chevrons pointing down.

Please.....I'm not trying to start some sort of disagreement or similar......merely interested in promulgating some of the things that I've come across.

I would also be grateful if anyone knows the answer to my own question above....."On the issue of sashes, I have a question........does anyone know when the practice of Pipe Majors/Serjeants wearing the sash on the opposite side started? (e.g. top left down to bottom right). The earliest I've noted is a photo of P/M John MacDonald (72nd) wearing it that way in 1854."

Although the majority appear to wear them in the fashion of commissioned officers, I've also come across photos of Pipe Majors/Serjeants (British Army) wearing them as per 'non piping' senior NCOs/WOs, there appears to have been a mix of styles over the years.

Thanks.

Ron,

Thanks for your reply.

First of all I totally agree that that different Scottish regiments adopted different arrangements for their pipers regalia, sometimes including insignia.

Second, I also agree that the pipe majors badges were outside regulation and varied between regiments and sometimes even battalions within the same regiment. Part of the reason for this is that when looking at the Army's history as a whole it was for only part of it that pipers (including the PM) were "publicly funded". During those periods in the financial wilderness they were paid for by the regiments themselves and so would wear whatever the regiment decided. As such they were outside regulation in terms of clothing demands and purchased privately.

Thirdly, during the 1850s and 1860s it was common throughout the British infantry and cavalry for four bar chevrons to be worn point down. It was during the 1870s that the change began within some regiments to point up and, as even then not all units were doing so, this was regularised by Army wide order in 1881.

You raise an interesting point regarding the pipe major's sash. I don't know the answer offhand and it will be interesting to try and research it.

P.S. I would be very interested to see any image of a soldier wearing the pictorial representation, as a badge, of a set of 3 drone pipes during WW1. So far I have only ever seen that badge worn by a British soldier post-WW1.

P.P.S. I was intrigued to see the postcard of Royal Scots Fusiliers pipers in white drill jackets. Something that seems quite rare to see.

[Ron Abbott]

Ron,

Thanks for your reply.

First of all I totally agree that that different Scottish regiments adopted different arrangements for their pipers regalia, sometimes including insignia.

Second, I also agree that the pipe majors badges were outside regulation and varied between regiments and sometimes even battalions within the same regiment. Part of the reason for this is that when looking at the Army's history as a whole it was for only part of it that pipers (including the PM) were "publicly funded". During those periods in the financial wilderness they were paid for by the regiments themselves and so would wear whatever the regiment decided. As such they were outside regulation in terms of clothing demands and purchased privately.

Thirdly, during the 1850s and 1860s it was common throughout the British infantry and cavalry for four bar chevrons to be worn point down. It was during the 1870s that the change began within some regiments to point up and, as even then not all units were doing so, this was regularised by Army wide order in 1881.

You raise an interesting point regarding the pipe major's sash. I don't know the answer offhand and it will be interesting to try and research it.

P.S. I would be very interested to see any image of a soldier wearing the pictorial representation, as a badge, of a set of 3 drone pipes during WW1. So far I have only ever seen that badge worn by a British soldier post-WW1.

P.P.S. I was intrigued to see the postcard of Royal Scots Fusiliers pipers in white drill jackets. Something that seems quite rare to see.

Please view:-

https://scontent-nrt.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10407535_10203779675867268_780004900741118731_n.jpg?oh=f603fdd53c68a3aa381c655dfe24a3fe&oe=55D1AE1E

RSF. The piper closest to the camera (Adam H Porteous) was my great grandmother's brother. Died of his wounds in 1915, I gather that they'd not long returned to the UK from 'India' when that photo was taken.

Secondly, I'm unsure of copyright issues, but I could certainly scan the photo from the Gordon Highlanders book of bagpipe music of P/M James Robertson.

I have a photo of P/M Gray somewhere but can't now find it. however all is not lost, as there is a very similar photo of him, maybe identical in fact on a website wearing the pipers badge and purported to have been taken in 1916. He became P./M of the City of Glasgow Police in 1919 so it was certainly taken before then, and he was actually P/M of the police in 1913 before the War, so these are the parameters.

View:-

http://www.bagpipe-tutorials.com/image-files/willie-gray.jpg

[FROGSMILE]

Please view:-

https://scontent-nrt.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10407535_10203779675867268_780004900741118731_n.jpg?oh=f603fdd53c68a3aa381c655dfe24a3fe&oe=55D1AE1E

RSF. The piper closest to the camera (Adam H Porteous) was my great grandmother's brother. Died of his wounds in 1915, I gather that they'd not long returned to the UK from 'India' when that photo was taken.

Secondly, I'm unsure of copyright issues, but I could certainly scan the photo from the Gordon Highlanders book of bagpipe music of P/M James Robertson.

I have a photo of P/M Gray somewhere but can't now find it. however all is not lost, as there is a very similar photo of him, maybe identical in fact on a website wearing the pipers badge and purported to have been taken in 1916. He became P./M of the City of Glasgow Police in 1919 so it was certainly taken before then, and he was actually P/M of the police in 1913 before the War, so these are the parameters.

View:-

http://www.bagpipe-tutorials.com/image-files/willie-gray.jpg

Thank you Ron.

Good images and certainly an early sighting of the 'pipes badge' in the photo purported to be 1916. There needs to be more research on this particular badge, as it is not listed as available officially at that time. I am wondering if it was issued from the Army piping school in Edinburgh castle at that time. It might have been made locally.

Great too to see a good quality photo of RSF pipers in white drill jackets.

[Muerrisch]

Just to make the point that I obviously did not make strenuously enough.

There is clear and irrefutable evidence that pipe-MAJORS wore a variety of distinctive extra badges above 4 chevrons pre- and during the Great War. These included a crown, a regimental ornate badge which might or might not include a representation of pipes, or a representation of pipes. Other than the crown I believe these were all regimentally introduced and probably similarly funded. If it matters, I could do a trawl of my references.

What I am clear about is that, in the same period, pipers per se did not have an authorised appointment badge [and rarely needed one, given distinctive clothing], and indeed did not have a badge until a few crept in during the war and a little afterwards. My earliest evidence is of an Australian pipe band, c. 1917 from memory. Also clear evidence on a Scottish pipe band on returning immediately post-war. Away from sources right now, but, from memory, these are the earliest sightings.

[Ron Abbott]

I'm not in disagreement as to what was or was not authorised, No need to argue strenuously. Your point is both understood and taken as being perfectly valid.

However, the original question in the thread was not about what was authorised, but what the insignia was that pipers/drummers wore. A case of semantics maybe, but a valid one nonetheless. And the Pipe Majors or Pipe Serjeants were pipers. Fact.

And on the subject of Pipe Majors, it transpires that the photo of P/M James Robertson that is in Volume II of the Gordon Highlanders Collection has previously been posted on the web. Here it is :-

https://www.pipetunes.ca/myimages/Image/composers/Jas-Robertson-c1920-250.jpg

Also of interest on Jim McGillivray's website is something that I hadn't seen before:-

https://www.pipetunes.ca/myimages/Image/composers/James%20Robertson%20Banff/James-Robertson-certificate.jpg