Eight Company structure? I'm still stuck...

[Graham Stewart]

War Office Instruction 13 of the 2nd December 1914.

[Graham Stewart]

Army Council Instruction 9 of the 2nd June 1915.

[FROGSMILE]

My point is that there are a 'few' and not 'many' or 'hundreds' as one might expect if over 300 Infantry Battalions were recording data in 1915. While some may have held on to old terminology, the majority would not (90% casualties for the BEF Infantry in 1914 might have accelerated this process). The examples are largely confined to two units out of over 300 infantry battalions and about 1.9 millions words of diary material ... which might support your argument, not counter it. In 1 million words of Gallipoli diaries the word C/Sgt does not appear once. This too might support your argument.

So here's the hard data: BEF 312 battalion diaries. 11 of 12 mentions in only two battalions. Not compelling evidence that C/Sgt was widely used in 1915.

Gallipoli: 148 battalions and not a single mention.

For what it is worth C/Sgt does not appear in the 1914-15 CWGC data. I have no idea what this means.

MG

And for the record I am not 'surprised' either way as I had no preconceptions.

I did not feel that you had preconceptions, or that you were trying to counter or support my "argument" (really just a query) Martin, and I am sorry if I gave that impression.

I am just trying to ascertain what the official position was (apropos of Army Orders) regarding the 'rank' of colour sergeant, during what was after all, arguably the most significant change to infantry battalion structure for over a hundred years and which took place gradually over a period between 1913 and 1915. It was not an overnight event and the rank and appointment arrangement stretching over that time is not entirely clear.

[Graham Stewart]

Army Council Instruction 30 of the 4th June 1915.

This reference is to the formation of 2nd Reserve Battalions of 'Locally Raised Battalions" - which we know as "Pals" Battalions.

[Graham Stewart]

Army Council Instruction 205 of the 23rd July 1915 regarding additional Companys

[Graham Stewart]

The all important Army Order 54 of February 1915 detailing the re-organisation of Territorial Bns into four Company Battalions.

[Ron Clifton]

Thank you, Graham.

It seems that all the orders relating to the four-company organisation state quite explicitly that the companies are to be lettered A, B, C and D. Clearly this rule was more honoured in the breach than in the observance!

Ron

[Graham Stewart]

With the References to rank - the Royal Warrant introducing the 'new rank' of WOII, as of 29th Jan 1915, appearing as AO70 of February 1915.

[FROGSMILE]

Thanks Graham. The WOII details are exactly as I knew them to be. It is what mention there might be of CSgt between 1915 and 1918 (if any)?that I would like to see.

[bootneck]

The last mention of Colour Sergeants in 1st Battalion, East Surrey Regiment Part II Orders is in January 1916 regarding the posting of a Colour Sergeant from the 2nd Battalion. The entry reads:

"Having been left in France on departure of the 2nd battalion is posted to the battalion with effect from 21 October 1916."

Thereafter he is referred to as Company Sergeant Major.

Bootneck

[Guest]

Reserve Battalions and Company Structure. A number of the regimental histories mention the expansion of the Reserve Battalions and the changes in structure. It is unclear whether all the Reserve Battalion in Aug 1914 had changed to a four-Company structure in line with the Home based regular battalions (some certainly had), however given the influx of recruits and the consolidation of the surplus Army Reservists and Special Reservists, the expanded structure appears to have anticipated later AOs. If memory serves the order to expand to 2,000 per Reserve Battalion happened in Sep 1914. By necessity it would probably have required the formation of extra companies. Two examples;

According to the History of the Black Watch, in 1914:,

"The [3rd Reserve] Battalion was formed on the basis of nine Companies. The ranks of six of these were filled with recruits; two others were filled with Expeditionary Force men, who only remained a few weeks with the Battalion and one Company was maintained for employed and Home Service men. Recruits undergoing the last three weeks of training and all fit Expeditionary Force men were formed into a Training Company and given a special course of instruction. This company was invariably commanded by a returned Expeditionary Force Officer doing duty for the time with the Battalion..."

The scope for letters A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H,I seems quite high in this example. In 1914 the standard reinforcement was 10% of War Establishment (1st Reinforcements were laid down in Ear Establishment) and we typically see one Officer and 93 ORs (numbers vary slightly) in the early months of the war in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th Reinforcement drafts At some stage in early October this breaks down as casualties exceeded all expectations and every trained man was being accelerated to the front. The Black Watch claim that every trained man was in France by mid October. Back at the Reserve Battalion they were still struggling with thousands of recruits. From the structure described above it would appear that a 'Company' was specifically structured for each reinforcement draft (in the early months) and by extension that Company would probably have been labelled with a letter...which (I think) is how men in F&F who subsequently became casualties were still being labelled as E Coy, F Coy, G Coy, H Coy etc.. as shown in the CWGC data.

According to the History of the East Surrey Regiment:.

"During September and October 1914 the battalion in spite of the frequent despatch of drafts overseas rapidly increased in strength, its numbers at the close of the latter month being 46 Officers and 1,072 Other Ranks. It had in the meanwhile reorganized on the four-company basis and in order to absorb the new arrivals, additional training Companies composed of recruits were formed as necessary whenever the strength exceeded the War Establishment of 1,019 of All Ranks.

On the 1st November three of these Companies - G,H, and I - were transferred bodily to form the nucleus of the 10th battalion East Surrey...."

MG

[FROGSMILE]

The last mention of Colour Sergeants in 1st Battalion, East Surrey Regiment Part II Orders is in January 1916 regarding the posting of a Colour Sergeant from the 2nd Battalion. The entry reads:

"Having been left in France on departure of the 2nd battalion is posted to the battalion with effect from 21 October 1916."

Thereafter he is referred to as Company Sergeant Major.

Bootneck

Thanks Bootneck. Given that the date is post the introduction of WOII he must have been promoted formally to warrant rank at or near the time he took up the post of CSM. It does seem to show that the CSgt rank still existed and that CQMS was seen as an appointment in that unit (and perhaps all others too).

[west coast]

my grandfather william mangan 6th batt royal dublin fusiliers . ...maybe these dates may be relavent to topic ??.

[Muerrisch]

An attempt at a summary of an excellent Forum discussion:

1. The transition was only just in time to bring the British regular infantry at Home and in the Colonies into line with continental allies and enemies, The Army in India, the Territorial Force changed after war was declared, and the Special Reserve was a "special case" due to expansion. The New armies used the 4 company system ab initio.

2. Companies were ordered to be named A to D but there were many exceptions such as right flank left flank, S to R, W to Z, 1 to 4 and others. Some battalions changed nomenclature.

3. Commanding Officers were seemingly free to implement the change without much prescription, and there is a known example where seniority of captains was not strictly followed. Little is known of the process of appointing CSMs and CQMSs. from the colour-sergeants.

4. After reorganisation there were few colour-sergeants not holding CSM or CQMS appointments and the use of the rank title "colour-sergeant" became very rare indeed, but not extinct.

5. When C-Sgts holding CSM appointments were raised to Warrant Officer Class II status in May 1915 the number of colour-sergeants was reduced by almost 50%. At that time the rank badge anomaly whereby a CSM could not be distinguished from a CQMS [both 3 chevrons and crown] was solved by the adoption of a crown by the CSM.

I hope the above commands consensus and is found to be useful.

[FROGSMILE]

An attempt at a summary of an excellent Forum discussion:

1. The transition was only just in time to bring the British regular infantry at Home and in the Colonies into line with continental allies and enemies, The Army in India, the Territorial Force changed after war was declared, and the Special Reserve was a "special case" due to expansion. The New armies used the 4 company system ab initio.

2. Companies were ordered to be named A to D but there were many exceptions such as right flank left flank, S to R, W to Z, 1 to 4 and others. Some battalions changed nomenclature.

3. Commanding Officers were seemingly free to implement the change without much prescription, and there is a known example where seniority of captains was not strictly followed. Little is known of the process of appointing CSMs and CQMSs. from the colour-sergeants.

4. After reorganisation there were few colour-sergeants not holding CSM or CQMS appointments and the use of the rank title "colour-sergeant" became very rare indeed, but not extinct.

5. When C-Sgts holding CSM appointments were raised to Warrant Officer Class II status in May 1915 the number of colour-sergeants was reduced by almost 50%. At that time the rank badge anomaly whereby a CSM could not be distinguished from a CQMS [both 3 chevrons and crown] was solved by the adoption of a crown by the CSM.

I hope the above commands consensus and is found to be useful.

An excellent summary I think Grumpy. I agree that for a period use of the term CSgt, seems to have declined in favour of CSM and CQMS, but I believe that after the introduction of WOII as a rank that created a clear differential, use of the term CSgt, spoken verbally, enjoyed a resurgence. In most infantry regiments it became common practice to address formally as 'Colour Sergeant', but informally as 'Q' (a la James Bond) as a short-hand for CQMS.

[FROGSMILE]

my grandfather william mangan 6th batt royal dublin fusiliers . ...maybe these dates may be relavent to topic ??.

Thank you west coast, that is very useful as it makes clear the pan-infantry view of that time that CSM and CQMS were paid appointments rather than ranks.

[Muerrisch]

a little more collateral:

26 Nov 1914

RQMS Cottrill [who had in fact been commissioned in the field but may not have been aware] writing home from 1st RWF thus:

As regarding the Col-Sgt’s who came out with the Bn this is how they stand as far as I can find out, Sgt-Major Reeves, Arm-Sgt Thorpe wounded in England; Col-Sgt Allen, Shea and Wood PoW in Germany; Allbutt, Underwood, and Downs wounded in England; Craven and Sullivan cannot be traced, reported missing, may be dead or PoW.

Another aspect of the continuity of the rank colour-sergeant in the early war period would be the status/ potential plight of any reservist colour-sergeant [not many of these because of seniority/ length of service considerations of course] recalled to the colours. There would not be an appointment for him until the grim reaper reaped,and by regulation he had to be recalled in his rank, and that could only be "colour sergeant"

Please has anyone had the patience to look at CWGC or Geoffs Engine to find refs to colour sergeants?

[Muerrisch]

Ho Ho! Wish I had not been browsing around!

Re, Gratuities, I see from

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=225333

that colour-sergeants either did not exist, or received no premium on sergeants despite ....................

Curious.

Will look at the 1914 Pay warrant.

[ss002d6252]

Ho Ho! Wish I had not been browsing around!

Re, Gratuities, I see from

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=225333

that colour-sergeants either did not exist, or received no premium on sergeants despite ....................

Curious.

Will look at the 1914 Pay warrant.

That confused me at first too. The parliamentary debate failed to give the correct rates for the gratuity, the original army order, including colour serjeants is on my site, https://wargratuity.wordpress.com/2015/08/27/army-order-17-of-1919-schedule/. It took me some time to untangle.

Craig

[Muerrisch]

Craig thank you!

[FROGSMILE]

That confused me at first too. The parliamentary debate failed to give the correct rates for the gratuity, the original army order, including colour serjeants is on my site, https://wargratuity.wordpress.com/2015/08/27/army-order-17-of-1919-schedule/. It took me some time to untangle.

Craig

That's a classic example of the confusion that has been puzzling me and I am now back to square one. Notice that CQMS and CSgt are both shown as de facto 'ranks' within the same block category. Conversely, WOII is shown without mention of CSM. This implies that for a period CQMS was seen as a rank in exactly the same way as [R]QMS was seen as a rank (until being made WOII). Similarly CQMS was referred to as a rank on another quoted official document earlier in the thread. I / we have yet to see a documentary order making clear when the change making CQMS an appointment took place.

[ss002d6252]

In April 15 the 6th DLI (and their record office) were also treating CSM as an appointment from Clr Sgt. The same man was promoted to Clr Sjt on 06 January 1915 but it may have been a way of filling up with fit men for the 1st line - a lot of their sjts were older , ex-volunteers, who didn't make it overseas (or not at least initially) - as he as C.S.M relatively quickly after that.

Craig

[Guest]

I don't quite get all this, and information on this page is probably 'old hat' to you guys, but, it appears, to me, to say 1915?

I'm sure info on this page will be of use to those not quite up to speed with this. Click

Cheers Mike

[Muerrisch]

Frogsmile, a reminder: until May 1915 quartermaster sergeant was indeed a rank, senior to all colour sergeants and junior to the bandmaster and RSM. As the Orderly Room Clerk post was fluid-complemented, there were often two QMS in a unit, the senior being the RQMS 4 chevrons and 8 pt star, the junior the ORC with 4 chevrons.

As far as the following goes, it looks like lazy drafting with a get-out clause added!

1. The minimum gratuity payable to a soldier, other than boy, in respect of war service will subject to paragraph 9, be as follows:-
   
   Private, Lance-Corporal, Lance-Bombardier or equivalent rank £5
   2nd Corporal, Bombardier, Corporal or Lance-Serjeant £6
   Corporal of Horse (Household Cavalry) or Serjeant £8
   Squadron Quartermaster-Corporal (Household Cavalry) or
   Squadron, Battery Troop or Company Quartermaster-Serjeant,
   Staff Corporal (Household Cavalry), Staff Serjeant or Colour-Serjeant £10
   Warrant Office, Class II £12
   Warrant Office, Class I £15
   
   2.The ranks mentioned above include in each case all appointments in the rank.
2. Rank, for the purposes of this paragraph, will be subject to such definition as may be prescribed by the Army Council.

Regarding CSgts appointed as CQMS, both AO 323/13 and 207/14 seem to do the trick, but I suspect that you are looking for a later Order to clarify what had become custom and practice in some units whereby the CQMS was seen as a rank.

I am not surprised at the rank/appointment confusion in the field ....... there were no "bog standard" CSgts around, the CSgt Instr Musk. being back Home, and the Orderly Room bloke with the storemen at the IBD as per Establishment. Anybody walking around with three chevrons and crown was a CSM or a CQMS.

One last offering. The Foot Guards habitually referred to their 8-company CSgts as Pay Sergeants. Sauce for the goose .........

[FROGSMILE]

Frogsmile, a reminder: until May 1915 quartermaster sergeant was indeed a rank, senior to all colour sergeants and junior to the bandmaster and RSM. As the Orderly Room Clerk post was fluid-complemented, there were often two QMS in a unit, the senior being the RQMS 4 chevrons and 8 pt star, the junior the ORC with 4 chevrons.

As far as the following goes, it looks like lazy drafting with a get-out clause added!

• The minimum gratuity payable to a soldier, other than boy, in respect of war service will subject to paragraph 9, be as follows:-

  Private, Lance-Corporal, Lance-Bombardier or equivalent rank £5

  2nd Corporal, Bombardier, Corporal or Lance-Serjeant £6

  Corporal of Horse (Household Cavalry) or Serjeant £8

  Squadron Quartermaster-Corporal (Household Cavalry) or

  Squadron, Battery Troop or Company Quartermaster-Serjeant,

  Staff Corporal (Household Cavalry), Staff Serjeant or Colour-Serjeant £10

  Warrant Office, Class II £12

  Warrant Office, Class I £15

  2.The ranks mentioned above include in each case all appointments in the rank.

• Rank, for the purposes of this paragraph, will be subject to such definition as may be prescribed by the Army Council.

Regarding CSgts appointed as CQMS, both AO 323/13 and 207/14 seem to do the trick, but I suspect that you are looking for a later Order to clarify what had become custom and practice in some units whereby the CQMS was seen as a rank.

I am not surprised at the rank/appointment confusion in the field ....... there were no "bog standard" CSgts around, the CSgt Instr Musk. being back Home, and the Orderly Room bloke with the storemen at the IBD as per Establishment. Anybody walking around with three chevrons and crown was a CSM or a CQMS.

One last offering. The Foot Guards habitually referred to their 8-company CSgts as Pay Sergeants. Sauce for the goose .........

1. Yes I am well aware that QMS used to be a rank and specifically mentioned that in my last post.

2. The two clauses to which you have drawn attention (in red text) now answer my query in full. I had not spotted them before. As you say, lazy drafting and a fudged get out clause.

3. Am aware of the pay sergeant connection. It had long been a secondary role for CSgts and, together with the responsibility for conveying company orders verbally and in long hand, was the reason why the CSgt had to be numerate and literate at a time (originally) when many soldiers were not.