Eight Company structure? I'm still stuck...

[Aurel Sercu]

Meanwhile I am hoping that one day there will be a posting about the restructuring of companies in 2/RIR, in which my man was. (First being in G Coy, then later in France - Flanders in ...... ???)

All I find so far, in The Burgoyne Diaries, is a sentence : "However, doubtless after the war, when all ranks have accustomed to the four company battalion system, ..." (Entry 19 Dec. 1914, p. 21).

Russ' posting (# 98) had given me hope that maybe the answer was given in the 2/RIR War Diaries, but unfortunately : not ... :-(

Aurel

[bootneck]

According to the Part I Orders for the 1^st Battalion, East Surrey Regiment, dated 26 September 1913 held at the Surrey History Centre (reference: ESR/2/2/24) the new 4 company structure as laid out by Special Army Order of 16 September was to be instituted from 1 October 1913. A Company was formed from A + E companies (1-4 platoons); B Company of B + G (5-8); C Company of C + F (9-12) and D Company of D + H (13-16 platoons).

Why this battalion’s companies changed from A-D to 1-4 in May 1915 is as yet unclear but the standard regimental history by Pearse and Sloman refers to them as A to D throughout. All the other battalions appear to have used A to D to designate companies.

On page 10 of volume II of the regimental history while discussing the 3^rd SR Battalion is the following:

“During September and October, 1914, the Battalion, in spite of the frequent despatch of drafts overseas, rapidally increased in strength, its numbers at the close of the latter month being 46 officers and 1972 other ranks. It had been in the meanwhile reorganised on the four-company basis, and, in order to absorb the new arrivals, additional training companies composed of recruits were formed as necessary whenever the strength exceeded the war establishment of 1019 of all ranks.

On the 1^st November three of these companies –G, H, and I- were transferred bodily to form the nucleus of the 10^th Battn. East Surrey.”

May it be possible that in other units a reservist’s company pre 1913 or SR company letter was used instead of his new unit’s company identity for a casualty?

Bootneck

[Terry_Reeves]

Para 913 of King's Regulations 1912 amended to 1 August 1914 has this to say about designation of companies etc:

Each squadron, troop, battery and company, will be permanently designated as follows: cavalry, RHA, RE, depot companies, infantry, supply and remount companies ASC, and depot RAMC - by a letter of the alphabet commencing with A.

Field, mountain, and garrison artillery: RE, RFC (Military Wing) horse and mechanical transport companies, ASC, RAMC, AOC, and sections of the AVC by consecutive numbers.

The announcement was published in AO 126, 1913.

TR

[bootneck]

I thought the following transcript of various 1^st Battalion, East Surrey Regiment Part I Orders (Surrey History Centre reference: ESR/2/2/24) showing the implementation of the four company organisation may be of interest.

Bootneck

PART I ORDERS No. 198

BY

LT-COLONEL J.R.LONGLEY.

COMDG. 1^st E.SURREY REGT.

DUBLIN

26-9-13

2. ORGANISATION. In accordance with Special Army Order of 16^th September 1913, the four company organisation of the Battalion will take effect as under from 1^st October next.

“A” Company (The present “A” & “E” Companies).

Commander:- Captain H.P.Torrens.

2^nd in Command:-

No. 1 Platoon Commander, 2/Lieut. G.R.P.Roupell.

No. 2 Platoon Commander, Lieut. H.H.Stacke.

No. 3 Platoon Commander, 2/Lieut W.H.Martin.

No. 4 Platoon Commander, No. 9428 L/Sergeant R.Baker.

Acting Coy.Sgt.Major, [No. 5136] C/Sgt Clarke. ACtg. Coy. QMS. [No. 7597] C/Sgt. W.Woolger.

“B” Company (The present “B” & “G” Companies).

Commander:- Captain E.M.Woulfe-Flanagan.

2^nd in Command:- Captain P.C.Wynter.

No. 5 Platoon Commander, 2/Lieut. G.E.Swinton.

No. 6 Platoon Commander, Lieut. H.F.Stoneham.

No. 7 Platoon Commander, 2/Lieut O.M.James

No. 8 Platoon Commander, No. 9020 Sergt. A.Ridgeway.

Acting Company Sergeant Major, [No.6046] C/Sgt. M.Minahan.

Acting Company Q.M.S., [No.5326] C/Sgt. T.Murden.

“C” Company (The present “C” & “F” Companies).

Commander:- Captain A.T.Robinson.

2^nd in Command:- Captain R.C.Campbell.

No. 9 Platoon Commander, 2/Lieut. E.S.W.Leach.

No. 10 Platoon Commander, Lieut. F.A.Bowring.

No. 11 Platoon Commander, 2/Lieut W.G.Morritt.

No. 12 Platoon Commander, No. 5398 Sergt A.Craven.

Acting Company Sergt. Major, [No. 7082] C/Sgt. W.Thompson.

Acting Company Q.M.S., [No. 5750] C/Sgt. W.Twohey.

“D” Company (The present “D” & “H” Companies).

Commander:- Captain M.J.Minogue.

2^nd in Command:- Captain M.J.A.Jourdier.

No. 13 Platoon Commander, Lieut. T.H.Darwell.

No. 14 Platoon Commander, 2/Lieut. E.H.G.Clarke.

No. 15 Platoon Commander, Lieut E.G.Lawton.

No. 16 Platoon Commander, No. 7936 Sergt. A.Reid.

Acting Company Sergt. Major, [No. 7933] C/Sgt. F.Walker.

Acting Company Q.M.S., [No. 7081] C/Sgt. F.Thompson.

3. INTERIOR ECONOMY. Officers Commanding Companies will hand over to Officers Commanding “A”, “B”, “C” and “D” Companies by 1^st proximo, all Arms, Equipment, Records, Stores etc, on their charge.

Transfer certificates for all eight companies will be made out in triplicate, one copy to be filed with the records and the other two copies to be sent to Orderly Room by 2^nd proximo.

Arrangements will be made with the Bank as to the signature of the Officer signing cheques for Company Pay.

The transfer of N.C.Os. and men to their new companies, and of cash from one Company Officer to the other will take effect from the 27^th instant.

4. BUGLE CALLS. The following will be the Company Calls.

“A” Company, the call now used for “A” Company.

“B” Company, the call now used for “B” Company.

“C” Company, the call now used for “C” Company.

“D” Company, the call now used for “D” Company.

The Company Sergeant Major, The present Pay Sergeants call with one extra “G”.

The Company Q. M. Sergeant, the present Pay Sergeants call.

5. UNDERSTUDIES. Officers Commanding Companies will send to Orderly Room by 1^st proximo the name of their

(a) Understudies to the Company Sergeant Major.

( Understudies to the Company Q. M. Sergeant.

The list of understudies appointments appeared in Part I Orders No, 225 (29 October 1913).

PART I ORDERS No. 212

BY

MAJOR H.S.TEW.

COMDG. 1^st E.SURREY REGT.

DUBLIN

13-10-13

5. PAY OF COMPANY SERGEANT-MAJOR AND COMPANY QUARTERMASTER-SERGEANT OF INFANTRY. With reference to Special Army Order of 16^th September, 1913 (A.O. 323 of 1913), respecting the organisation of an infantry battalion, the Army Council has notified that sanction is given to the following rates of pay for the new ranks of company sergeant-major and company quartermaster-sergeant and the Royal Warrant for Pay, etc., 1913, will be amended accordingly in due course:-

Foot Guards daily Infantry of Line daily

s. d. s. d.

Company Sgt. Major 4 2 4 0

Company Q. M. Sgt. 3 8 3 6

One Pay and Mess Book only will be kept, and the company quartermaster-sergeant will receive sixpence a day additional pay. If the strength of a company exceeds 200 a second soldier may be employed on this duty and be paid sixpence a day.

The existing colour sergeant who, under paragraph 5 of the Army Order, are carrying out the duties of company sergeant-major, and company quartermaster-sergeant should receive the above emoluments while so employed with effect from 1^st October, 1913.

Allowances, such as contingent, library, etc., may, until further instructions, continue to be issued as if the change in organisation from eight companies to four companies had not taken place.

The paymaster will secure the adjustment of all outstanding public balances.

Authority, W.O. Letter No. 20/Infantry/389 (F.2), dated 9^th October, 1913. Hd. Qrs. No. 31587 (A).

(Irish Command Order No. 1300, dated 11^th October, 1913.)

PART I ORDERS No. 229

BY

MAJOR H.S.TEW.

COMDG. 1^st E.SURREY REGT.

DUBLIN

4-11-13

1. ORANISATION OF A PLATOON. With reference to Special Army Order of 16^th September, 1913 (A.O. 323 of 1913), it has been decided that the war organisation of the platoon shall provisionally be as follows:-

(I) Each platoon will be commanded by a subaltern with a sergeant as second in command, and will be sub-divided into four sections each under a non-commissioned officer directly responsible to the platoon commander.

(II) If two sergeants are available for duty with a platoon exclusive of those belonging to battalion headquarters, the junior of them will command a section, otherwise sections will be commanded by corporals or lance corporals.

Authority, W.O. Letter No. 79/4623 (S.D.2), dated 31-10-13. Hd. Qrs. No. 32150(G).

(Irish Command Order No. 1393, dated 1^st November, 1913.)

[Muerrisch]

Bootneck: most interesting insight into the nuts and bolts.

Thank you.

[Guest]

Bootneck. Thanks for posting. Most interesting.

looking at the Army List it seems Minogue (OC D Coy) was three months junior to Wynter (2IC B Coy) I have dates of substantive Captain 1st Apr 1910 and 26th Jan 1910 respectively. Unless there is a typo it seems seniority was not strictly observed in this case. Wondered if your data reflects the same as the Army List.

MG

[Muerrisch]

Yes, I noticed that, but there appears to be a degree of engineering in that A/E B/F C/G D/H was not fully adhered to.

What we are missing of course is the attributions of the captains to the original eight companies.

[bootneck]

The Surrey History Centre holds a run of battalion orders for 1st Battalion, East Surrey Regiment, from 1902 onwards; there are gaps and 1912 & 1914 are missing. Having quickly scanned through 1913 I can see no obvious list of officers of the 8 company organisation as yet and some of the information appears contradictory. I do not have ready access to the Army List and must admit that my main interest is the battalion rank & file during the war rather than the officers. There is a list of officers at annual camp that appears to be possibly in order of seniority.

I have noticed amongst the weekly training schedules that 1-4 Companies are used and they also mention recruits, Indian drafts, marked and employed men as well as boys and battalion specialists.

Bootneck

[Guest]

See below Nov 1914 Army List. Officers are listed in order of seniority within each rank;

[bootneck]

Martin

Thank you

Bootneck

[bootneck]

Martin

The Part I Order No. 46 dated 24 February 1913 notes the following:

1. Transfer. Captain P.C.Wynter, 2nd Battalion, East Surrey Regiment, to the 1st Battalion. He has been ordered to join accordingly. I. C. O. No. 228, dated 22-2-13.

Captain P. C. Wynter will take over Command and payment of "B" Coy, from Lieut. H. St. G. Schomberg, from 1st March inclusive.

It appears that appointment to the battalion was a factor as Captain M J A Joudier (promoted February 1919) joined the regiment later in the year and became 2i/c of D Company after re-organisation.

Bootneck

[Ron Clifton]

Thanks Bootneck.

It did occur to me that Wynter might have been a newcomer to the battalion (although he had been with them for eighteen months by Aug 1914) and that this might explain the appointment of Minogue to a company ahead of him. It is also possible that Wynter himself declined command of a company, or that his experience with 2nd Bn showed him not to be ready for such an appointment in the enlarged company setup. Yet another possibility is that Woulfe-Flanagan was earmarked for another appointment shortly, so that Wynter could then take over "B" Company.

All suppositions on my part, of course, but the Army was never a slave to the "Buggins' turn" rule.

Ron

[Guest]

Thanks Bootneck.

It did occur to me that Wynter might have been a newcomer to the battalion (although he had been with them for eighteen months by Aug 1914) and that this might explain the appointment of Minogue to a company ahead of him. It is also possible that Wynter himself declined command of a company, or that his experience with 2nd Bn showed him not to be ready for such an appointment in the enlarged company setup. Yet another possibility is that Woulfe-Flanagan was earmarked for another appointment shortly, so that Wynter could then take over "B" Company.

All suppositions on my part, of course, but the Army was never a slave to the "Buggins' turn" rule.

Ron

OC A Coy at Mons - H P Torrens

OC B Coy at Mons - E M Woulfe-Flanagan (wounded at the Aisne)

OC C Coy at Mons - J P Benson

OC D Coy at Mons - M K Minogue... wounded 14th Oct 14

Wynter arrived with the Battalion on 4th Nov 14 with 2 Subs and 54 ORs. He is also mentioned in a list of Officers appended to the Nov 1914 diary giving NOK. In 1915 he was commanding B Coy at Hill 60 where he was killed with 6 brother Officers and 106 ORs

[FROGSMILE]

As an aside. I think that the OC No1 platoon, 2Lt Roupell, might well be the officer who later became famous in musketry circles and endowed the Roupell Cup for competitive, infantry section shooting.

In relation to the change in organisation, it is clear that for a period the rank of Colour Sergeant ceased to exist. This was later resolved by making the rank Colour Sergeant and changing yet supposed new rank of CQMS into an appointment. What I would like to know is the date that this resurrection of the Colour Sergeant took place? Interestingly it seems to have been lost subsequently in both Canadian and ANZAC forces, I am unsure about South Africa.

[bootneck]

There is a photograph of the officers, 1st Battalion, East Surrey Regiment, in Dublin, 1913. The Captains listed are Wynter, Campbell, Hewitt, Woulfe-Flanagan, Ford & Jourdier and Torrens & Minogue are noted as absent. Perhaps this may help to narrow down the date it was taken.

Bootneck

[Muerrisch]

As an aside. I think that the OC No1 platoon, 2Lt Roupell, might well be the officer who later became famous in musketry circles and endowed the Roupell Cup for competitive, infantry section shooting.

In relation to the change in organisation, it is clear that for a period the rank of Colour Sergeant ceased to exist. This was later resolved by making the rank Colour Sergeant and changing yet supposed new rank of CQMS into an appointment. What I would like to know is the date that this resurrection of the Colour Sergeant took place? Interestingly it seems to have been lost subsequently in both Canadian and ANZAC forces, I am unsure about South Africa.

Frogsmile, I am not too sure about the rank CSgt being non-existent for a while ........... please what sort of 1913-ish period did you have in mind, and indeed what prompted your conclusion?

Problems potentially spinning off from non-existence [which would surely have caused a trickle of Army Orders] were the plight of CSgts appointed, for example, CSgt Instr Musketry, and CSgt appointed as OR Clerk and, in the auxilliary forces, the CSgts appointed Acting RSM.

I plead in evidence the fact that there were three rates of pay for the gentlemen potentially involved: CSM, CQMS and those other CSgts NOT appointed thus.

As some will know, this sort of area is bread and butter for me, and nothing would delight more than to pounce on a piece of evidence to be able to quote for a blip in the continuity of CSgts.

I append below extracts from the AOs [in time order] which suggest to me that Csgts had continuity:

323 of October 1913. Organisation of a Regular Infantry battalion.4 coy. org to be adopted from 1 Oct 1913.

"In each coy there will be eventually a CSM and a CQMS. For the present these duties will be carried out by the existing CSgts."

AO 207 of July 1914. Pay of CSM and CQMS. CSgts appointed Line CSM 4/- per diem, CQMS 3/6- [issued as Special Army Order 9th June 1914]

AO 210 of July 1914. Organisation of an Infantry battalion. CSM and CQMS shall be CSgts. Increases pay of CSM to 4/2-. [Edit: AO. I deduce was to clarify the "for the present" above]

[FROGSMILE]

Frogsmile, I am not too sure about the rank CSgt being non-existent for a while ........... please what sort of 1913-ish period did you have in mind, and indeed what prompted your conclusion?

Problems potentially spinning off from non-existence [which would surely have caused a trickle of Army Orders] were the plight of CSgts appointed, for example, CSgt Instr Musketry, and CSgt appointed as OR Clerk and, in the auxilliary forces, the CSgts appointed Acting RSM.

I plead in evidence the fact that there were three rates of pay for the gentlemen potentially involved: CSM, CQMS and those other CSgts NOT appointed thus.

As some will know, this sort of area is bread and butter for me, and nothing would delight more than to pounce on a piece of evidence to be able to quote for a blip in the continuity of CSgts.

I append below extracts from the AOs [in time order] which suggest to me that Csgts had continuity:

323 of October 1913. Organisation of a Regular Infantry battalion.4 coy. org to be adopted from 1 Oct 1913.

"In each coy there will be eventually a CSM and a CQMS. For the present these duties will be carried out by the existing CSgts."

AO 207 of July 1914. Pay of CSM and CQMS. CSgts appointed Line CSM 4/- per diem, CQMS 3/6- [issued as Special Army Order 9th June 1914]

AO 210 of July 1914. Organisation of an Infantry battalion. CSM and CQMS shall be CSgts. Increases pay of CSM to 4/2-. [Edit: AO. I deduce was to clarify the "for the present" above]

I don't know the answer Grumpy, which is why I was pleading for help. Although I accept that there were CSgt Musketry Instructors, et al, the raison d'être for the CSgt rank had always been (since 1813) to be the principal SNCO and pay sergeant for the 8 companies.

Once the 4-company organisation was adopted and CSM and CQMS introduced the function of the CSgt was null and void other than for a few specialists on the battalion staff. The two new positions seem to have been referred to as 'ranks' and yet they are now and have been for a very long time 'appointments', with the 'ranks' being WOII and CSgt.

My point then is when was that situation clarified by promulgated orders. It is significant that the position of CSM was introduced before the introduction of WOII. With that in mind it is my opinion that the CSgt rank (notwithstanding those who had reserved rights) was probably reintroduced at the same time (or thereabouts) as WOII was created, in 1915, a full two years after the 4-company organisation was promulgated.

It would seem then that there was no function for CSgt (beyond the few in specialist appointments) between those two dates, in terms of new promotions. However, it is an unclear area and I am hoping that someone will have some documentary references.

We are talking here about the difference between rank and appointment, which some laymen will find difficult to understand, but I hope that I have made my point and the query behind it, clear.

[Muerrisch]

I take your point, there is doubt, and I am continuing to look. The only new evidence that I have traced is KR 1912 amended to 1 Aug 1914 which, when listing precedence, para 285. brackets CSM, CQMS and CSgt .

In the Ranks and Appointments para 282. mega-list it uses the generic "colour-serjeant" as the group title of CSM, CQMS, CSgt Instr Musk, ORS, and Staff CSjt.

Perhaps Ron Clifton has a view?

[Ron Clifton]

My view broadly agrees with Grumpy's, and for the same reasons.

Between the introduction of the four-company system and the creation of the rank of WOII, I would say that CSM and CQMS in the infantry were appointments held by men with the rank of colour-sergeant. I would say that they continued to be appointments thereafter, the ranks then being WOII and colour-sergeant. I don't think having different badges, or different rates of pay, made for different ranks: the defining rule being the mega-list referred to by Grumpy, in later editions of King's Regulations.

Ron

[FROGSMILE]

My view broadly agrees with Grumpy's, and for the same reasons.

Between the introduction of the four-company system and the creation of the rank of WOII, I would say that CSM and CQMS in the infantry were appointments held by men with the rank of colour-sergeant. I would say that they continued to be appointments thereafter, the ranks then being WOII and colour-sergeant. I don't think having different badges, or different rates of pay, made for different ranks: the defining rule being the mega-list referred to by Grumpy, in later editions of King's Regulations.

Ron

I accept that initially the duties of CSM and CQMS were simply carried out by men holding the 'rank' of colour sergeant. However, at some point in 1915 (July?) the rank of WOII was introduced and taken up by CSMs. From what you say then, the CQMS merely remained a colour sergeant at the same time. For me the confusion is caused in posts were CSM and CQMS are referred to as 'ranks' as if that was the term used in official orders. The Army itself understood very well the difference between rank and appointment, so the terminology used in Army Orders is very important indeed. It should be remembered that the concept of a sergeant major and a QMS for each sub-unit was not a new one. It had been used by the RA first, then the cavalry and, in 1900, was used by the West Indies Regiment alone of all the line infantry.

[Guest]

There are a few of references to C/Sgts in the 1914 and 1915 battalion war diaries. Oddly they are mostly in Scottish Battalions. A&SH and HLI in particular.

[FROGSMILE]

There are a few of references to C/Sgts in the 1914 and 1915 battalion war diaries. Oddly they are mostly in Scottish Battalions. A&SH and HLI in particular.

I am not in the least bit surprised by what I would describe as vernacular mentions and I don't think you are either. You do not suddenly switch off cultural terminology dating from 1813, at the flick of a switch, especially as initially the positions of CSM and CQMS were merely taken up by existing colour sergeants. It is what the official line was that I am interested in.

[Guest]

I am not in the least bit surprised by what I would describe as vernacular mentions and I don't think you are either. You do not suddenly switch off cultural terminology dating from 1813, at the flick of a switch, especially as initially the positions of CSM and CQMS were merely taken up by existing colour sergeants. It is what the official line was that I am interested in.

My point is that there are a 'few' and not 'many' or 'hundreds' as one might expect if over 300 Infantry Battalions were recording data in 1915. While some may have held on to old terminology, the majority would not (90% casualties for the BEF Infantry in 1914 might have accelerated this process). The examples are largely confined to two units out of over 300 infantry battalions and about 1.9 millions words of diary material ... which might support your argument, not counter it. In 1 million words of Gallipoli diaries the word C/Sgt does not appear once. This too might support your argument.

So here's the hard data: BEF 312 battalion diaries. 11 of 12 mentions in only two battalions. Not compelling evidence that C/Sgt was widely used in 1915.

Gallipoli: 148 battalions and not a single mention.

For what it is worth C/Sgt does not appear in the 1914-15 CWGC data. I have no idea what this means.

MG

And for the record I am not 'surprised' either way as I had no preconceptions.

[Muerrisch]

A little more background fro KR 1912 rev Aug 1914.

"The ranks and appointments Held by WOs NCOs and men are set forth ..... the grant ..... of any appointment will confer the rank specified opposite that appointment ......

[Graham Stewart]

Just a quick one to add to the confusion - the four Company rule did not apply to Reserve units, who added additional Companys to cope with the influx of recruits. The same also applied to Service Battalions prior to overseas service when an additional two companys were added to each Battalion. The two Companies were generally lettered 'E' & 'F' Company and on the original four Companys proceding overseas, these latter Companys formed the nucleus of the "Reserve" Battalions that were to be formed. I'll try and attach the relevant ACI's regarding the above.