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Remembered Today:

Eight Company structure? I'm still stuck...


peter__m

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1/4th Bn Duke of Wellington's (West Riding) Regt provides possibly one of the most confusing transitions.

It Started with A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H Companies which amalgamated as follows in mid January 1915:

A & D Coys became No.1 Coy and subsequently became A Coy

E & G Coys became No.2 Coy and subsequently became B Coy

B & C Coys became No.3 Coy and subsequently became C Coy

F & H Coys became No.4 Coy and subsequently became D Coy

However a footnote on page 7 of its history reveals that on Christmas Day 1914, the Companies had their dinner as follows:

No. 1 and No.7 Coys Red Lion Hotel

No. 2 Coy Saluation Hotel

No. 3 Coy Thatched House Hotel

No. 4 and No. 8 Coys Burns Hotel

No. 5 and No.6 Coy Danum Hotel

Which suggests at one stage, prior to the restructuring to a four Company structure there were eight numbered Companies. So they appear to have tried every approach. MG

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The 4 company structure was promulgated to the British units in India with effect from 1 Jan 1915 (Indian Army Order 25 of 1915 ). It specifically confirms in the instructions that this also applied to the T.F. battalions in India.

post-51028-0-11641600-1442650597_thumb.j

Craig

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I believe that the pairing of companies when their number was reduced from eight to four depended on two main factors: the relative seniority of the company commanders as noted by MG (and perhaps also the relative seniority of the colour sergeants as noted by Grumpy) and, in the case of TF battalions, the location of the various drill stations. I don't have specific examples to hand but it is not uncommon to find that a TF battalion had three or four companies based in the county town and the rest in various smaller towns in the county. It would be very odd to link each company in the county town with one of the others, irrespective of where the men actually lived.

I don't think that there was a hard and fast rule that A and E became A, B and F became C, etc, or even that A and B became A, C and D became B, etc.

Ron

Ron - something to chew on. 1/6th (Perthshire) Bn Black Watch

G (Dunkeld and Pitlochry) Coy and H (Aberfeldy) Coy formed No. 1 Coy

B (Perth) Coy and D (Crieff) Coy .................................formed No. 2 Coy

C (Dunblane) Coy and E (Blairgowrie) Coy .................formed No. 3 Coy

A (Perth) Coy and F (Auchterarder) Coy.................... formed No. 4 Coy

Suggesting that geographic origins were not a factor in this particular example.Note the two Perth based Companies amalgamating with separate Companies.

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Very interesting to see how all those units each adapted to the new organisation Martin. Much as my own reading over a number of years had led me to believe. Thank you for your hard work in posting the various accounts. Just as an aside, numbering companies was not a new thing and had been the norm during the Napoleonic and Crimean wars. As so often these things often move in circles and, as old soldiers often say, some bright spark re-invents the wheel.

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2nd Bn Royal Fusiliers 5th Feb 1915 redesignated A,B, C, D Coys as W, X, Y Z Coys. No reason given. (War Diary)

1st Bn Somerset Light Infantry's D Coy became H Coy for some unexplained reason in Oct 1914. The Companies thereafter being A,B, C and H Coys.

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Very interesting to see how all those units each adapted to the new organisation Martin. Much as my own reading over a number of years had led me to believe. Thank you for your hard work in posting the various accounts.

It was a bit of a revelation. I thought I understood it, but in fact it appears to be more complex. The ability to search 300 war diaries using "H Coy" or "No.1 Coy" helps of course. It takes about 0.1 second. The search function is generating a few interesting examples and highlighting a few typos in the transcriptions. Interestingly different TF battalions within the same Regiment appear to have taken different approaches. I thought the fact that the War Office sounded the TF battalions out before forcing the change was particularly revealing.MG

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The 4 company structure was promulgated to the British units in India with effect from 1 Jan 1915 (Indian Army Order 25 of 1915 ). It specifically confirms in the instructions that this also applied to the T.F. battalions in India.

Capture.JPG

Craig

Thank you Craig, that confirms the 1915 date for the vast bulk of the TF that I had known for some years, but without having the exact order to reference.
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Just as an aside, numbering companies was not a new thing and had been the norm during the Napoleonic and Crimean wars. As so often these things often move in circles and, as old soldiers often say, some bright spark re-invents the wheel.

There seems to be little consistency. Even in the Guards which generally held on to a numbering system has 1SG with lettered Companies, which 2GG had numbered companies

1 SG also using RF and LF for Right Flank and Left Flank instead of A Coy and D Coy viz

RF

B Coy

C Coy

LF

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Yesterday evening when I switched off the pc I thought my head was spinning.

This morning when I switched it on and went to this topic ... ! Is there a word in English that is the equivalent of (spinning)² ?

Until yesterday I was (almost) sure that no matter how complicated things are, that my 'G' Company man must have been in Company C or D.

So I read with double interest The Burgoyne Diaries, knowing that on Dec. 13 Captain Burgoyne took over command of 'C' company, and on Dec. 20 of 'D' Company

Al the time wondering of course : is he speaking now about the company my 'G' Company man was in ?

My "hope" now is that Captain Burgoyne mentions the name of a man in his company who died, and that this man is in CWGC database with mention of his Company, old system (E, F, G, H). (But I already know now : these are extremely scarce.)

Or even if no name is mentioned by Capt. Burgoyne, but when this man is the only fatal casualty that day ...

Aurel

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Thank you Craig, that confirms the 1915 date for the vast bulk of the TF that I had known for some years, but without having the exact order to reference.

I'll have a look again later as I may have something else which gives the relevant army order.

Craig

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Very interesting discussion covering new ground I think.

For the record the relevant Army Orders seem to be:

323 of October 1913. Organisation of a Regular Infantry battalion.4 coy. org to be adopted from 1 Oct 1913. Home or Colonies. To be designated A B C D.

"In each coy there will be eventually a CSM and a CQMS. For the present these duties will be carried out by the existing CSgts."

No "this is how to do it" so it was left to the CO I expect. Martin infers a strong case for the CO either being careful with the mergers, or moving officers to avoid junior/senior problems. Majors would be no problem but they were not in abundance and never meant to be. 2nd RWF OCs coy were indeed the 4 most senior captains [no majors] and I think it inconceivable that this was not the general principal.

Regarding the CSgts I don't think we can be sure if CSgts were moved to ensure that the four seniors were all CSMs. Much gnashing of gums if not, but CSgts often had a beneficial long term relationship with their company. In the absence of any instruction, even the odd battalion example would neither confirm or deny the CSgt seniority treatment.

AO 207 of July 1914. Pay of CSM and CQMS. CSgts appointed Line CSM 4/- per diem, CQMS 3/6- [issued as Special Army Order 9th June 1914]

AO 210 of July 1914. Organisation of an Infantry battalion. CSM and CQMS shall be CSgts. Increases pay of CSM to 4/2-. No "this is how to do it".

AO 306 of August 1914. Infantry Training 1914 [4 coy] approved for adoption.

AO 54 of Feb1915. TF to adopt 4 coy organisation. Included revised War Establishments for TF.

There may be other relevant Orders of course.

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The Indian army order was 1 Jan 15 so I think you could be right about the possibility of there being more in the way of orders, the India orders seemed to usually lag by a month or two behind UK issued ones. Of course it's possible that there was a deliberate delay in updating the units in India.

Craig

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Regimental Journals will be a rich source of material on this I suspect.

Yesterday evening when I switched off the pc I thought my head was spinning.

This morning when I switched it on and went to this topic ... ! Is there a word in English that is the equivalent of (spinning)² ?

Until yesterday I was (almost) sure that no matter how complicated things are, that my 'G' Company man must have been in Company C or D.

So I read with double interest The Burgoyne Diaries, knowing that on Dec. 13 Captain Burgoyne took over command of 'C' company, and on Dec. 20 of 'D' Company

Al the time wondering of course : is he speaking now about the company my 'G' Company man was in ?

My "hope" now is that Captain Burgoyne mentions the name of a man in his company who died, and that this man is in CWGC database with mention of his Company, old system (E, F, G, H). (But I already know now : these are extremely scarce.)

Or even if no name is mentioned by Capt. Burgoyne, but when this man is the only fatal casualty that day ...

Aurel

In your example we know for sure there was no G Coy in 2nd Bn R Irish Rifles (the War Diary effectively confirms this with hundreds of references to A, B C D Coys in 1914-15). G Coy - in whatever form it took - never was part of the 2nd Battalion. The G Coy label with the few men who died must come from their previous battalion i.e. the Reserve Battalion. The CWGC entries are effectively shorthand notes recording their original (Reserve Battalion) Company. I really think it is that simple. Also all the examples seem to fit with Special Reserve numbering.

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1st Bn OBLI history:

"The 43rd had but lately changed from the old eight- to the new four-company organisation; and so as to avoid confusion the double companies were lettered "S", "P", "Q", "R", after the insignia borne on the Roman standards - Senatus Poluusque Romanus. It was a pity that the 2nd/43rd reverted to the "A", "B", "C", "D" lettering and that "S", "P", "Q", "R", were not revived after the War"

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The 6th DLI appointed their CSM's and CQMS' on 12 January 1915 and utilised A,B,C and D for the company names. The men appointed to the roles generally had around the same length of T.F. experience to the appointments may have looked at Volunteer service as well as ability to decide who got which job.

Craig

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Regimental Journals will be a rich source of material on this I suspect.

In your example we know for sure there was no G Coy in 2nd Bn R Irish Rifles (the War Diary effectively confirms this with hundreds of references to A, B C D Coys in 1914-15). G Coy - in whatever form it took - never was part of the 2nd Battalion. The G Coy label with the few men who died must come from their previous battalion i.e. the Reserve Battalion. The CWGC entries are effectively shorthand notes recording their original (Reserve Battalion) Company. I really think it is that simple. Also all the examples seem to fit with Special Reserve numbering.

Martin,

"Regimental journals" ... Do you mean the War diaries ?

"The CWGC entries are effectively shorthand notes recording their original (Reserve Bn.) Company" Made by who, or better : based on what ? Where did that information come from ? Final Verification Forms ? Or some Army documents ? And if the latter : how come there are so few mentions of the man's company ?

"It really is that simple". :-)))

Aurel

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1st Bn OBLI history:

"The 43rd had but lately changed from the old eight- to the new four-company organisation; and so as to avoid confusion the double companies were lettered "S", "P", "Q", "R", after the insignia borne on the Roman standards - Senatus Poluusque Romanus. It was a pity that the 2nd/43rd reverted to the "A", "B", "C", "D" lettering and that "S", "P", "Q", "R", were not revived after the War"

Who was 2/43rd? The 2nd Batt OBLI were the 52nd.

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Very interesting discussion covering new ground I think.

For the record the relevant Army Orders seem to be:

323 of October 1913. Organisation of a Regular Infantry battalion.4 coy. org to be adopted from 1 Oct 1913. Home or Colonies. To be designated A B C D.

"In each coy there will be eventually a CSM and a CQMS. For the present these duties will be carried out by the existing CSgts."

No "this is how to do it" so it was left to the CO I expect. Martin infers a strong case for the CO either being careful with the mergers, or moving officers to avoid junior/senior problems. Majors would be no problem but they were not in abundance and never meant to be. 2nd RWF OCs coy were indeed the 4 most senior captains [no majors] and I think it inconceivable that this was not the general principal.

Regarding the CSgts I don't think we can be sure if CSgts were moved to ensure that the four seniors were all CSMs. Much gnashing of gums if not, but CSgts often had a beneficial long term relationship with their company. In the absence of any instruction, even the odd battalion example would neither confirm or deny the CSgt seniority treatment.

AO 207 of July 1914. Pay of CSM and CQMS. CSgts appointed Line CSM 4/- per diem, CQMS 3/6- [issued as Special Army Order 9th June 1914]

AO 210 of July 1914. Organisation of an Infantry battalion. CSM and CQMS shall be CSgts. Increases pay of CSM to 4/2-. No "this is how to do it".

AO 306 of August 1914. Infantry Training 1914 [4 coy] approved for adoption.

AO 54 of Feb1915. TF to adopt 4 coy organisation. Included revised War Establishments for TF.

There may be other relevant Orders of course.

Great to have the orders referenced. This was what I meant when I said it was not 100% clear in 1913 early 1914 that the change in structure was to be permanent. HQs were still asking for feedback on the suitability and effectiveness of the change in 1914 and it was really the AOs in late summer 1914 that made the 4-company arrangement permanent.
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Martin,

"Regimental journals" ... Do you mean the War diaries ?

"The CWGC entries are effectively shorthand notes recording their original (Reserve Bn.) Company" Made by who, or better : based on what ? Where did that information come from ? Final Verification Forms ? Or some Army documents ? And if the latter : how come there are so few mentions of the man's company ?

"It really is that simple". :-)))

Aurel

Aurel, Regimental Journals were voluntarily created periodicals or digests produced by the unit themselves and containing a mixture of news, unit information, including history, and often humorous anecdotes too. They began in the late Victorian era and really became established in the period after the 2nd Boer War. Some units stopped publication during the war because it was not possible to dedicate an officer and helpers as editor and printers. They were an entirely different concept to official and formal regimental war diaries.
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A survey of the BEF's first 8 Divisions plus 19th Inf Bde plus 29th Div: a total of 111 Regular Infantry Battalions and 1 TF Bn

94 Battalions used A B C D

7 Battalions used 1 2 3 4 all Foot Guards and, curiously 1st Bn Gordon Highlanders and 1st Bn KOSB (later changed to A B C D)

6 Battalions used W X Y Z

1 Battalion used RF B C LF 1st Bn Scots Guards

1 Battalion used RF F G LF 2nd Bn Scots Guards

1 Battalion used King's 2 3 4 1st Bn Grenadier Guards

1 Battalion used A B C I 1st Bn Rifle Brigade

1 Battalion used A B C H 1st Bn Somerset Light Infantry

In summary, stripping out the Foot Guards, and the single TF Battalion (leaving 103 Regular Line Infantry Battalions):

91% used A B C D

5% used W X Y Z

2% used 1 2 3 4

2% used A B C plus another letter (not D)

% Numbers not exact due to rounding. MG

Some curiosities:

1. 1st Bn ABCD and 2nd Bn WXYZ fits in all but one example. The anomaly is the Essex Regt whose 1st Bn was WXYZ and 2nd Bn was ABCD. I can only imagine that the 2nd Bn (UK based) had snatched ABCD before 1st Bn (Mauritius) reorganised and took WXYZ to differentate from 2nd Bn.

2. KOSB and Gordon Highlanders using 1234 when their sister battalions were using letters. The 1st Bn KOSB using 1234 comes from an early (1914) diary entry. By time the Battalion deployed (Gallipoli) it was using ABCD. It raises the possibility that other overseas Battalions used 1234 before coming into line.

3. 1st Bn Rifle Brigade's I Coy has something to do with history. I used to know but have forgotten

4. 1st Bn Somerset Light Infantry's H Coy. Started the war as D Coy and by First Ypres was H Coy. Curious to know why. I can only think it was so full of Special Reservists they renamed it. My speculation.

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Who was 2/43rd? The 2nd Batt OBLI were the 52nd.

I noticed that too. It is written exactly as the footnote in the history of the 43rd in the Great War. Maybe the author couldn't bring himself to write 52nd. maybe an 'in' joke within the OBLI that the 52nd were the 2/43rd? That or some reason why referring to the Battalions by their old numbers was no longer seemed correct form. An oddity I would agree.

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I noticed that too. It is written exactly as the footnote in the history of the 43rd in the Great War. Maybe the author couldn't bring himself to write 52nd. maybe an 'in' joke within the OBLI that the 52nd were the 2/43rd? That or some reason why referring to the Battalions by their old numbers was no longer seemed correct form. An oddity I would agree.

Yes very strange. Thank you for elaborating. Also the superb statistical analysis. All very interesting for a 'spotter' like me.

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Yes very strange. Thank you for elaborating. Also the superb statistical analysis. All very interesting for a 'spotter' like me.

I Have seen in the 11th Div War Diaries some very old fashioned references to Regiments by their original 1st Bn numbers and the Service Battalion as a fraction viz:

9/20th for the 9th Bn Lancashire Fusiliers and 11/63rd for 11th Bn Manchesters and 9/45th for 9th Bn Sherwood Foresters... following this shorthand it is possible to see how one gets to 2/43rd for the 2nd Bn OBLI... although I admit it is scarce nomenclature and I have only ever seen this twice. MG

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I Have seen in the 11th Div War Diaries some very old fashioned references to Regiments by their original 1st Bn numbers and the Service Battalion as a fraction viz:

9/20th for the 9th Bn Lancashire Fusiliers and 11/63rd for 11th Bn Manchesters and 9/45th for 9th Bn Sherwood Foresters... following this shorthand it is possible to see how one gets to 2/43rd for the 2nd Bn OBLI... although I admit it is scarce nomenclature and I have only ever seen this twice. MG

Yes, it's interesting that the number of the 2nd (and 'regular') battalion gets inherently ignored when the number of the 1st battalion becomes effectively 'short hand' for the regimental title. One can only imagine how the 2nd battalions viewed it!

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