Hislop thumbs up

[Kath]

Mike,

A warm welcome to the Forum.

Kath.

[Ludovica]

I'm green with envy. Mike got my "dream job" there!

[Nick Cooper]

I thought Hislop exaggerated the resentment of new 'middle class' officers by long-standing upper class residents of the messes.

I'm not sure that that would be true, but perhaps for a different reason. One only has to read Graves's Goodbye to All That to see the resentment on the part of regular officers to HO officers, even ones who were already "gentlemen." It doesn't take much of a leap of faith to accept that new officers who weren't would get at least as rough a ride, if not worse.

[Terry Denham]

I have been in Balcombe Club (as it is known locally) dozens of times but I never knew that the WW1 mural existed in the same building!!!!

[ianw]

Terry - Yes, the mural was extraordinary. I may well have to plan a visit to see it. Is it generally open to view ?

[Mike Maloney]

Hello again, and thanks Kath, for the welcome.

As for envy about the job, we-ll, perhaps not, after reading these memoirs (Confessions?) of a

Clerkenwell hireling.

First though, an apology for my bit of mistaken identity. When I saw the broadcast, I thought

I'd heard 'Rev' instead of 'Ed' Finlayson, error compounded by the blue shirt, which made

me think of the Rev Duncan Finlayson, Walter Tull's nephew in law, rather than Ed,

Duncan's son. So, wrong Finlayson, but still feel genuine about the eerie recognition of a

man I've never met. I realised this on studying the tape sequence earlier today (only seven

minutes in fact), which also gives me a few other things to think about & later air, as regards

the story of Walter Tull & its presentation in this series. First things first though, I'll get on

with explaining how the Finlaysons, among other descendents of Walter, were located.

To get back to the original idea that the TV company had, our job was to find direct live male

descendents of selected names off WW1 war memorials. This would have meant that

Walter, among others, would not have featured, whatever his status as a pioneering black

footballer & officer, given that he died childless. It was after a couple of days of academic

stevedore work, lifting a big index (4 per year) off a shelf for a quick check of the names,

before shoving it back without whacking someone, what with the databases looking like

casualty lists, as in lines through names, crossed out info. blocks & big question marks

(talk about missing in action!), that it was starting to look as if there wouldn't be a series,

not at this rate of attrition. As I learned later, ways & means talks of solving this problem

were held between the research agency & the TV company ideas kids. The result

fortunately, was a good one, in that we were now directed to broaden the search.

If the names had any siblings, preferably male, we were to search for descendents by the

same method of scanning the marriages & birth indices, getting proveable results asap.

The existence of siblings had already been noted in some cases, but more in passing

than by intent. All the better anyway, if it saved time. It also helped if there was

additional info. about the name, which gave an insight into the location & social background

of the family. If the name concerned had no children, his siblings might yet be important

enough, and concerned enough about their significance, to announce births, engagements,

marriages & deaths in The Times; a form of publicised status which could make up for

not (yet) having the sort of blue blooded family connections which guaranteed a mention

in Debretts. I'm thinking here of someone else who I had to research for this series and

their descendent who I'd traced, who merited an obituary in The Times last month.

I won't name him just yet however, until I see if he does feature later in the series.

To get back to the Walter Tull search, his significance was different, in terms

of being out of the ordinary for his time, as the snippet of information I had about him,

indicated. This offered scope for finding out if & where any descendents were to be found,

by means quicker (& cost free) than those indicated by the indices. A complication though,

was that the indices in the Family Records Centre are for England & Wales, but the one

known kinsman of Walter on the Commonwealth War Grave website, was a brother,

one Edward Tull-Warnock of 419 St Vincent Street in the centre of Glasgow. This was

puzzling, for what I knew of Walter was that he was from a very modest background in

Kent, before spending the rest of his pre-war life based in London & Northampton.

His own fame did not explain how his brother had acquired a double barrelled surname

& what the Glasgow internet directory indicated was a very classy business address in

a prosperous part of the city centre. This mystery was compounded by the absence

of a Edward Tull or Tull-Warnock from the 1901 England & Wales census.

Walter himself, was alone in a London orphanage, and the rest of the Tulls of Folkestone

had it seemed, at least partly split up as a family unit.

Having already established that Walter had not married and had no children,

I decided to try & find out more about Edward Tull-Warnock, partly from the

internet, and partly from the online census resources at the Family Record Centre.

The 1901 census had indicated that the Tull family unit must have broken up

comparatively recently, given the ages of Walter and his sisters. The 1891 census

could therefore show the family when united, and reveal more about Edward,

if not how & why he ended up in Scotland.

I'd no idea however, that this search would show that Edward was also capable of

breaking through the barriers & redefining his place in the class structure.

Not as meteoric as Walter, but Edward was no less impressive in a quieter way, in that

he was to become a successful Glasgow dentist, with a modest fame in golf

tournaments.

For now I'm afraid, I'm going to have to break off instead of break through,

till tomorrow.

Mike

PS I know that my describing these people as 'names' may sound cold blooded,

but that's how they were referred to at the time, usually very rapidly,

in the hothouse atmosphere that was the FRC during those frantic days.

Perhaps it evokes that atmosphere more accurately than a whole paragraph.

Edited 29 November , 2005 by Mike Maloney

[Ludovica]

Sounds like just my cup of tea.. given I've been doing the same thing (unpaid) for donkey's years!!.... <still green with envy>

[ianw]

On re-watching the last show, it dawned on me that Capt Egerton (the second twin to die) was in my Grandfather's regiment the 19th Hussars. He was killed in the regiment's disastrous charge against German rear guard machine guns in October 1918.

He fell with the Colonel and numerous others. The history records that the regiment did get amongst the enemy with the sabre - but the cost was high. A sad story given that he returned to the regiment after a total breakdown. Fortunately, my grandfather had been commissioned out of the regiment some months before this attack. As Colonel's trumpeter, I don't think Grandfather would have survived.

[Kath]

"lifting a big index (4 per year) off a shelf "

Mike,

Was there a reason why you didn't use the microfiche BMD indices?

Kath.

[Mike Maloney]

To answer that question, we were working in Clerkenwell FRC, not Kew PRO, where the microfiche

BMD index is. The TV company didn't just want the references, but the certificates too,

so that meant Clerkenwell.

There were researchers in Kew I believe, but their job was to look for any relevant (military)

records of anyone who might be worth learning more about, because of discovered

descendents. Or not as the case may be, as I'll outline tomorrow probably, in reference

to another forgotten Tull.

First though, Edward, who appeared with the rest of the family in the 1891 census for

Folkestone. The real breakthrough was in the internet search however, which was not only

giving references about the Northampton memorial, and about Phil Vasili's book

('Colouring Over The White Line: The History of Black Footballers in Britain'), but the online

Guardian article of 25 March 1998, which quoted a remark by the Rev. Finlayson,

identified as Walters nephew in law.

By now, I'd established from sources including the History of Dentistry Research Group,

not to mention Vasili's book, that Edward, who'd also been in the orphanage, had been

adopted by a Dr Warnock of Glasgow, eventually taking over his dental practice.

It was his daughter Jean (Tull-Warnock) who'd married the Rev. Finlayson, and whose

death notice late in 2004, featured on the "This is North Scotland" website, complete with

mention of her four children (including Edward) and address, which was confirmed by a

look in the latest area phone book. I've no doubt that Edward's story is fascinating in its

own right, down to the references to his name appearing on the Western Dental Golf

Club trophy lists of the late 20s, but it was mission accomplished as far as the official

view went, the business of ordering Scottish certificates being dealt with elsewhere,

while I was transferred to work on other elusive names.

Apart from earning my pay, there was a good feeling about 'finding' the

Finlaysons, and optimism too, that this would result in Walter's story being

broadcast, for they had been enthusiastic about the Memorial, and had allowed

Phil Vasili to study their archive, containing photos and letters between the

brothers. As if a good omen, there was even a Sunday Times article on WW1

sportsmen which featured Walter.

There was however, one other brother, William Steven P. Tull, who unlike Walter,

does have a cgwc listed war grave, in his home town of Folkestone (1920),

and as I'll explain next time, the research was indicating that he wasn't the

last Tull to follow the traditional family profession of carpentry....

[Roxy]

Some harsh criticism regarding 'Not Forgotten' and Mr Hislop, I feel. Whilst the more accomplished researchers may have learned little new from this programme, I am surprised that they thought 'Rocket Man' would be more interesting! Would you rather C4 didn't make the programme and, apart from members of forums like this, those individuals who were sacrificed in the Great War were forgotten? I would like to think not. Let's not forget that it is a TV programme and, as such, has to try to attract an audience range. The information will undoubtedly appear to be be 'dumbed-down' for some individuals. Does this not then give us on this forum an opportunity to expand on what has been delivered by C4. Moreover, I think that a programme that was unable to find any living relatives of those names on the memorials would probably be short lived, I expect that C4 probably thought that film of researchers doing what they do best may have not been the best TV. Personally, I'd never heard of Walter Tull, and I have an interest. Hopefully a new generation of couch potatoes is now becoming aware of what my great grandfather's mates did.

Rant OFF.

Well done C4 and Ian Hislop.

Roxy

[Mike Maloney]

Personally, I wouldn't have wanted any cameras filming us at Clerkenwell. Apart from getting in the

way, time wasting, it would have been a distraction from the people we were researching &

their memorials, which is what really mattered here.

Only so much information can be packed into a programme. The Walter Tull sequence for instance,

only lasted seven minutes, even though it seemed longer. There's also the particular theme of

each programme, and how the information can be accommodated, if at all. Apart from

obviously not being able to make a story out of someone who had no descendents at all

(and in relation to the good feelings I had about 'finding' the Finlaysons, there was also a real

sense of sadness in the aftermath of researching another name, who turned out to be an only

child, as I realised what hopes & dreams were destroyed when he was killed), there may well

have been other descendents of other names who were located, but who were either

indifferent if not hostile, or who had nothing to contribute story-wise, as the programme

planners saw it, and they are the ones who decide what we do or do not see.

William Tull provides an example in terms of what was left out. A Folkestone carpenter like

his immigrant father, his having a young family of his own to bring up, ruled out being

able to look after Walter & Edward when they were orphaned. The brothers remained in

touch however, and like Walter, William joined the Army, in his case, the Royal Engineers.

Eventually invalided out, he died of wounds back in Folkestone in 1920, leaving several

children. I'd been working on this at the same time as the Edward Tull line, and apart from

the possibility of his military service record being somewhat more likely to survive on

account of his circumstances, there was the possibility of direct descendents, not least

because of an advertising website for a Tull roofing company from Dover, which includes

the image of a black construction worker studying a plan. All in all, a good story in terms

of continuity, but apart from being put on other assignments myself, I can only guess

that the producers or whoever, already had all they needed, given that they now had

living descendents who they could contact, who had an archive, and who had already

cooperated with researchers in the past, so that was that.

As for interpretation in those seven minutes, there may be a case for saying that there were

weaknesses in the script. There was no mention, somewhat surprisingly (Ian Hislop having

strong religious beliefs himself), of the devout methodist background of the Tulls,

and how this was crucial in giving Walter & Edward access to that particular orphanage

with the prospect of a career. In Edward's case, it was being in a touring choir that

brought him to the notice of the philanthropic Warnocks, while Walter, initially being

apprenticed to be a printer, was all the more welcome at Spurs, the manager himself

being methodist. When Phil Vasili made his remarks about institutions, I think he was

referring to the common practice of the time (as related in his book) or orphan

children being packed off to farms in Canada or Australia, the Tulls being exempt from

this on account of the mutually supportive network to which they belonged.

Either an elaboration was edited out or he just wasn't given time to make one.

It seemed a bit odd too, that Walter's achievement in becoming an officer, and his

consequent impact, was if anything, understated. His initial period of active service

ended with him being shipped home, suffering from shellshock. As regards his

death, during the desperate battle known as the March retreat, an attempt by

his men to retrieve his body, had to be vetoed by his superior officers. Finally,

apart from not mentioning the 1997 Tull memorial match, or the Memorial Garden

that goes with the actual memorial, there was no reference to Walter featuring on

a methodist memorial in Glasgow, thanks to Edward.

But like I said, from a producer's point of view, there's only so much information,

as can be packed into a single programme. There's also the emphasis,

which in this case, was Ian Hislop arguing that the class system began to crack

up, on account of the cataclysmic experiences of Tull & his contemporaries.

One can disagree with this, and Hislop was himself ridiculed in a recent

'Thunderer' column in The Times for appearing on a radio programme

debating the end of the class system in these times, he & the other participants

all being former public school boys from privileged backgrounds.

And yet, Ian has performed a service by presenting to us, as is his role on

'Not Forgotten', the likes of Walter Tull & their memorials. And if it gets people

interested & stimulates debate about aspects of our society as much as the past

that can be so easily forgotten or ignored, perhaps he's living up to the tradition

set by that other notorious satirist with a religious background and social

conscience, Dean Jonathen Swift, and we may be the better for it.

So, well done Ian!

[strongbow]

It has been a pleasure to watch this programme. Ian Hislop lives near me, and if I see him in town in the future, I will shake him by the hand and thank him for an excellent programme. The producers and the researchers should be applauded as well.

[Patrick H]

Some harsh criticism regarding 'Not Forgotten' and Mr Hislop, I feel. Whilst the more accomplished researchers may have learned little new from this programme, I am surprised that they thought 'Rocket Man' would be more interesting! Would you rather C4 didn't make the programme and, apart from members of forums like this, those individuals who were sacrificed in the Great War were forgotten? I would like to think not. Let's not forget that it is a TV programme and, as such, has to try to attract an audience range. The information will undoubtedly appear to be be 'dumbed-down' for some individuals. Does this not then give us on this forum an opportunity to expand on what has been delivered by C4. Moreover, I think that a programme that was unable to find any living relatives of those names on the memorials would probably be short lived, I expect that C4 probably thought that film of researchers doing what they do best may have not been the best TV. Personally, I'd never heard of Walter Tull, and I have an interest. Hopefully a new generation of couch potatoes is now becoming aware of what my great grandfather's mates did.

Rant OFF.

Well done C4 and Ian Hislop.

Roxy

excellent rant

Patrick

[The Guardroom]

Excellent prog and definately on my watch list now for boring Sunday nights.

Hislop delivers it so well with his real interest and humour.

Well done that man, lets have more please

[healdav]

[

By now, I'd established from sources including the History of Dentistry Research Group,

not to mention Vasili's book, that Edward, who'd also been in the orphanage, had been

adopted by a Dr Warnock of Glasgow, eventually taking over his dental practice.

It was his daughter Jean (Tull-Warnock) who'd married the Rev. Finlayson, and whose

death notice late in 2004, featured on the "This is North Scotland" website, complete with

mention of her four children (including Edward) and address, which was confirmed by a

look in the latest area phone book. I've no doubt that Edward's story is fascinating in its

own right, down to the references to his name appearing on the Western Dental Golf

Club trophy lists of the late 20s, but it was mission accomplished as far as the official

view went, the business of ordering Scottish certificates being dealt with elsewhere,

while I was transferred to work on other elusive names.

How does one get into the Dentristy Research Group? I have a veteran that I have been trying to definitely place and he was a dentist in Britain up to 1914.

[Coldstreamer]

Hello

I just wanted to know the name of the Coldstream Gds window cleaner...

Ian

[Mike Maloney]

What I did was type 'Tull History of Dentistry Research Group' and was given several

references to Edward & Walter in its onsite newsletter, including the village where

Edward's daughter was living. I don't know if that'll work for you, healdav,

but if not, you could always contact them direct on their website:

www.rcpsglasg.ac.uk/hdrg.

Just an amendment while I'm here, to what I was saying yesterday. A different

internet source I was looking at earlier, says that Walter was shipped back with

trench fever, and that attempts to retrieve his body under fire were actually

made.

[Ludovica]

...

As for interpretation in those seven minutes, there may be a case for saying that there were

weaknesses in the script. There was no mention, somewhat surprisingly (Ian Hislop having

strong religious beliefs himself), of the devout methodist background of the Tulls,

and how this was crucial in giving Walter & Edward access to that particular orphanage

with the prospect of a career. In Edward's case, it was being in a touring choir that

brought him to the notice of the philanthropic Warnocks, while Walter, initially being

apprenticed to be a printer, was all the more welcome at Spurs, the manager himself

being methodist. When Phil Vasili made his remarks about institutions, I think he was

referring to the common practice of the time (as related in his book) or orphan

children being packed off to farms in Canada or Australia, the Tulls being exempt from

this on account of the mutually supportive network to which they belonged.

Either an elaboration was edited out or he just wasn't given time to make one.

It seemed a bit odd too, that Walter's achievement in becoming an officer, and his

consequent impact, was if anything, understated. His initial period of active service

ended with him being shipped home, suffering from shellshock. As regards his

death, during the desperate battle known as the March retreat, an attempt by

his men to retrieve his body, had to be vetoed by his superior officers. Finally,

apart from not mentioning the 1997 Tull memorial match, or the Memorial Garden

that goes with the actual memorial, there was no reference to Walter featuring on

a methodist memorial in Glasgow, thanks to Edward.

.....

You have indeed considerably expanded on the information given and I thank you for it, as what you have said has answered a lot of the questions I had cropping up in my mind whilst watching the programme.

In defence of the way the story was portrayed, I hope no one will mind me saying that in producing a programme for a prime slot on a national TV station which touches on race issues, the producers would want to be careful how to portray this, and to be frank I can imagine the outcry if the issues of philanthropic patronage had been over emphasised, lessening the impact of the personal achievements of Walter Tull.

Of course the tacit understanding is, that at that particular era, no matter how talented or amazing an individual was, advancement was still very much a matter of "who you know" and on the face of it, an orphaned member of an ethnic minority wouldn't be an obvious candidate for any sort of advancement, even in the sporting sphere. I had a feeling there was more to this story, but that sensitive issues might be being pushed into the background.

There is an alarming trend currently, whereby the past is often judged and assessed from a 21st Century viewpoint by those with no specialist knowledge of history. I feel that the programme makers were trying to take this into consideration, but in the process, they ended up posing more questions than they provided answers. On the whole however, I do think it was a good decision. I would not have liked Walter Tull's personal achievements to have been tainted with any shadows of why he, and not some other person, became such a pioneer

[Ludovica]

8PM Folks! Don't forget.... (hehe)

Tonight it is concentrating on women

[Stephen White]

Very good programme tonight as good as those that have gone before.

The most moving story of tonights programme was Mrs Souls and the loss of her five sons to the Great War and a sixth to menigitis after the war and having to leave her village because of "gossip".

Despite picking her out for a mention, ALL the ladies stories tonight were truely fascinating.

Stephen

[Ludovica]

Another marvellous program sensitively presented. I really hope Mr Hislop makes many in the near future

[marina]

It was excellent tonight - the Nurse 'Gypsy' on her motor bike was terrific. And Mary Barbour too with her rent strike. Really fascinating stories.

Marina

[swizz]

Another very well put together programme tonight - I really enjoyed it. The Souls story was quite hard-hitting even at this distance from the events. I found tonight's programme the most compelling of the series so far.

Swizz

[John_Hartley]

Has anyone taped it?

If so, you could please have a nosy at the beginning of the programme for me. When Hislop is looking at the memorial at York, the names of the women are behind wooden doors. I thought behind, perhaps, the last one, I saw the name Powicke. It was gone too quickly for me to be sure.

Can you confirm please. She is one of my researchees.

ta

John