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Gordon Caldecott

Interesting set of medals!!!

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Gordon Caldecott

Saw this set of miniatures on ebay, thought it was an interesting group!!!

post-2587-1128758781.jpg

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Coldstreamer

Hello

what a bizarre group of medals - be nice with provenance as must be unique

Ian

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Glosters

Doesn't look very likely.

Say he was 16 years old in 1879, qualified for SA medal.

Would still have to be a ranker in WWI to get MM.

Even if he won an early MM he would be about 48 years old. I suppose it's not totally impossible, but looks made-up to me.

Just my thoughts.

Steve

and no LSGC? A very long serving, decorated soldier?

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Bombadier

As minatures were (are?) a private purchased item, somebody could have purchased them singly for himself without being entitled to the full sized counterparts.

Nigel

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per ardua per mare per terram
and no LSGC? A very long serving, decorated soldier?

Long service and good conduct did not always go together! I have seen plenty of servicemen (of course as all the records have survived these have usually been RN or RM so the rules were not completely the same) who served 22years without a LSGC.

The longest service I have seen for ww1 started on Sept 1880 (entered as a boy of 15), the man was born in 1865 and was 49 when discharged in 1914 as unfit for war service, after earning a 14star and bar trio. Am I right in thinking that you had to still be serving in 1916 to get even a retrospective MM? That would have put my man in his 51st year.

Does anyone know much about sjt FW Mallin and A/bdr JJ Pope RGA?

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Staffsyeoman

Even as a Boy Drummer in 1879 (14), he would have been 51 to qualify for an MM. It's stretching a point. Wouldn't pay more than the current market price of each individual miniature, accumulated, were it offered. Anyone claiming hundreds of pounds is pushing it. Absence of an LSGC is less alarming - it isn't called the 'undetected crime' medal for nothing, and they were far stricter then.

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eviltaxman

Notice that it's the 14/15 Star not 14 Star. OK, doesn't mean a lot, but he could have left the army pre-WW1 and got recalled. I only suggest this this, as my G-Grandfather was RN from 1889 (aged 21) 'til 1910, then recalled in Aug '14 (died Aug '15). We was going to receive his LSGC, but made a "mistake" one day and lost it! -- 15 years being the time he had to be a good boy :P

Les.

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Gordon Caldecott

Lots of interesting points made here. Thank you. I must admit, I was a bit dubious of it when I saw it, if it had some sort of confirmation with it, I think I might have been tempted.

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Rob B

Gordon,

I do have concerns with the group. I am hazarding a guess that the first victorian award is the Zulu War medal (1877-1879) then the QSA with 2 bars (no KSA) and then the last medal is the 1937 Coronation. If he was 18 in 1879 then by 1937 he is 77 I think this is a put together group.

Steer clear.

Rob

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Gordon Caldecott

Hi Rob yes I agree, to many variables!!!!

What about this group? You may recognise it? I think you`ll agree that its lovley group!!!

post-2587-1128855491.jpg

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per ardua per mare per terram
Notice that it's the 14/15 Star not 14 Star. OK, doesn't mean a lot,

Not having a 1914 Star is not an indicator that a group is not genuine or that the man was not a regular. Because of imperial commitments, most regiments had battalions that were not included in the BEF as they were protecting the Empire and only started returning after the casualties started to mount up. I have researched several pre war regulars with the 14/15 Star, one who arrived in France on 24/11/14! I've also have seen people who were stripped of their LSGCs.

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enoch beard

service of sgt mjr william tegarty- 39 yrs 1 day

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Rob B

Gordon,

Very nice accumulation to an old regular who could well be in one of the outposts of Empire when the war broke out but got in after Nov 1914.

The bars look ok but my question would be if he has the Khedive Sudan medal (1896-1908) that would fit on the bar before his WW1 Trio rather than at the end of bar 2.

Rob

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GavinH

Rob,

Foreign medals were worn after British medals, so this order is correct.

Regards

Gavin

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HarryBettsMCDCM

The time span is possible,I have the Afghanistan 1878~80 Medal & 1914~15 Star Trio to a 30th Foot & East Lancs R.,later Sergeant Cook RAF} Man,Lance~Sergeant/Sergeant William J.Blythe;from Southend ~on~Sea; born in April 1858,who was finally discharged{& received an RAF SWB} on 11.11.1918.however as this seller is also offering a very similar MC/QSA/WW1/Coronation/Etc; group,with nice shiny new nylon Ribbons,I would hazard that a nice little "Cottage Industry" is occuring! :blink:

Miniatures are after all unofficial private purchases{in the UK} & any Military Tailor,Medallist can & did supply them,a hotch potch such as this is in all probability a fantasy item,it doesn't even have the kudos of some age & wear,most miniatures of contemporary mounting were mounted "loose slung";it is a very modern "Display" ethic to mount Medals/Miniatures Court style,a style usually reserved for Court & Cavalry in contemporary mountings

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Rob B

Thanks Gavin I thought the Khedive Sudan was not a foreign award but checked the book and you are spot on.

The danger we all have now with miniatures is as Harry so rightly said it is now becoming a cottage industry to buy a shack handful put them together and make then an attributed group. It won't be long before we have some startling gallantry groups that are highly plausable but not the real McCoy.

So £30 in loose medals become £150 as a group.

Rob

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HarryBettsMCDCM
£30 in loose medals become £150 as a group.

ONLY if folk are daft enough to buy them! :blink:

Although I do not as a rule purchase Miniatures that are extant from a full size group,unless a Miniature group is accompanied by a genuine provenance linking it to a particular Recipient then it is prudent not to pay more than the combined total value for the loose medals,plus a pound or two for the mounting,as they are virtually unattributable once detached from the original collection,unlike their named big Brothers there will always be another lot along another day!

Caveat Emptor! :ph34r:

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Gordon Caldecott

Here is another VC group, I`ve come across, the Afagn medal looks modern ot me!!!!

post-2587-1128926550.jpg

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Gordon Caldecott

Talking of medals being in the wrong order, am i right in thinking that the UN medal should be next to the Korea Medal, with the Corocnation Medal next, then the LSGC?

post-2587-1128926636.jpg

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Gordon Caldecott

I think people are just knocking these out willy nilly, as this group also looks modern.

Chard`s VC and Zulu medal miniatures sold for £600, a while or so back. At least these looked old, unlike this lot!!!!!

post-2587-1128926778.jpg

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Staffsyeoman

Firsat off the bat - yes, absolutely right, UN Medals are worn as for campaign medals, namely the order in which they're earned, so it should go at the side of the Queen's Korea. UN medals are not generally regarded as 'foreign' for purposes of wear.

But another thing hits me here - this group look like it was mounted by the same person/firm who did the original post - they are just that bit too long. Also, given that the combination is not a common one - Burma Star with Pacific not a common sight to the Army - there are just some faint alarm bells going 'ding a ling'.

It is by far from an 'impossible' grouping, and it's (very) nice to look at but I have an inkling that these are assembled groups rather than reflective of real ones.

And the Afghan VC group - yup, they're all modern.

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Rob B

Gordon,

Yes UN medals together, then coronation then LSGC. What an interesting collection of minatures you are producing I think I will put a Leonard Cheshire group together and see what it goes for. His was a VC, DSO,DFC and numerous bars group and then lets see what the e-bay community do!

Cheers,

Rob

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Rob B

Phil,

I go with that the other little thing is that many Burma and Pacific star wearers did not get the defence medal as they never served in the UK theatre.

Rob

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Bombadier
It is by far from an 'impossible' grouping,

I believe that it is impossible. The Burma and Pacific star could not be both awarded. The recipient received the first star to which they were entitled, Burma or Pacific, and if they then became entitiled to the other, they received a bar.

Burma Star with Pacific bar, or Pacific Star with Burma bar are possible. A silver rose would have been worn on the ribbon to denote the award of the bar.

See here

http://homepage.eircom.net/~gordonsteele/burmastar.html

Nigel

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Eddie Bosano-Andrews

These look supsiciously like a Westair Reproductions to me (the first post).

You can alway tells because Westair don't make a KSA and there are always two bars on the QSA fused together.

Hvae a look at an earlier thread :

 

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