brianmorris547 Posted 7 January Share Posted 7 January 5 hours ago, IMacN91 said: Hi Ken, Thank you very much for the response. I lose all concept of time when I’m researching, I have downloaded the diary mentioned above and will move on to the brigade and divisional diaries now. Thanks again Arthur has a service record in WO 363. His number was 1973 and he served in 9 Bn A&SH. I have attached his B 103 which records that he was wounded in action on 11/05/1915 and died of wounds on the same day in No 8 Casualty Clearing Station. I will try and see if there is a report of his death in the local papers. Brian TNA/Ancestry WO 363 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianmorris547 Posted 7 January Share Posted 7 January He is mentioned in the Scotsman 28/05/1915 and The Daily Record 28/05/1915. Reported that he was wounded on 11/05 and died in hospital four days later (which is wrong). I could not find a local paper for where he lived. This might have a photograph which you can compare with the above. The report was sent in by Mrs Hill of 13 Stow St, Paisley. Arthur is described as her brother in law. He was 21 and previously an engineer with John Brown & Co Clydebank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMacN91 Posted 7 January Share Posted 7 January (edited) 5 hours ago, brianmorris547 said: He is mentioned in the Scotsman 28/05/1915 and The Daily Record 28/05/1915. Reported that he was wounded on 11/05 and died in hospital four days later (which is wrong). I could not find a local paper for where he lived. This might have a photograph which you can compare with the above. The report was sent in by Mrs Hill of 13 Stow St, Paisley. Arthur is described as her brother in law. He was 21 and previously an engineer with John Brown & Co Clydebank. Hi Brian, Many thanks for taking the time to research this for me, it is appreciated. Please let me know how I can support your work. Elizabeth is correct, that would be my great gran, her husband Ernest was enlisted with the East Yorkshire regiment when he lost his brother, and then his daughter in quick succession. He had a “colourful” army record before being marked as deserting upon returning from France for an injury. Could you please advise what source you are using for newspapers? I will look into this further. Edited 7 January by IMacN91 Phrasing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianmorris547 Posted 8 January Share Posted 8 January 9 hours ago, IMacN91 said: Could you please advise what source you are using for newspapers? I will look into this further. The British Newspaper Archive which is available via Findmypast. The History Section in the Library (Paisley) may have the local papers for where he lived on fiche. They are a mine of information. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neill Gilhooley Posted 8 January Share Posted 8 January Military Operations (Official History) https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.210675/page/n407/mode/2up (1/9th Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders, 81st Brigade, 27th Division, brought up to support 80th Bde) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianmorris547 Posted 8 January Share Posted 8 January There are some good accounts attached to the WD of 81 Infantry Brigade. The Unit WD seems to be missing. On 11/05/1915 the 81 IB WD records that 9 A&SH were in Brigade Reserve in Zouave Wood and there is a map which shows the location. It does not give any further info. brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMacN91 Posted 9 January Share Posted 9 January (edited) 18 hours ago, brianmorris547 said: There are some good accounts attached to the WD of 81 Infantry Brigade. The Unit WD seems to be missing. On 11/05/1915 the 81 IB WD records that 9 A&SH were in Brigade Reserve in Zouave Wood and there is a map which shows the location. It does not give any further info. brian Thank you for sharing again. I’ve contacted the Renfrewshire heritage centre and they provided me with the following newspaper clipping from the 29/05/2015 Paisley & Renfrewshire Gazette. Unfortunately no picture of Arthur, and this complicates things further as I now find Leonard was also in the 1/9th! This mentions Leonard is in service, I’ve found two record for Leonard. Attestation from 1912 - No 1719 also for the A&SH. He is then discharged in 1914 under para 156 (X1). Would you understand what this means? I then find a pension index card for Leonard Hill for the Royal Engineers under 89th Field Company - No 53475. I believe this might be same person as the next of kin listed is his future wife. Is it plausible that he was transferred from the A&SH to the royal engineers? I’m not finding any other data on ancestry, or findmypast. Edited 9 January by IMacN91 Missing information Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianmorris547 Posted 9 January Share Posted 9 January (edited) 10 hours ago, IMacN91 said: I then find a pension index card for Leonard Hill for the Royal Engineers under 89th Field Company - No 53475. I believe this might be same person as the next of kin listed is his future wife. Is it plausible that he was transferred from the A&SH to the royal engineers? I’m not finding any other data on ancestry, or findmypast. The December 1915 WD of the Commander RE 14 Div has nominal rolls of HQ, Field Companies and Signals Co but L Hill 53475 is not shown on 89 FC or any other. I think this is because he would have been wounded before the nominal rolls were made and had been in the evacuation chain. His Silver War Badge record shows that he enlisted 25/09/1914 and was discharged under KRs para 392 (cause wounds) on 25/10/1916. He should be shown in the Official Casualty Lists in the Scotsman. Two other men on the same 1914-15 RE medal roll, 53448 Slyfield, J and 53471 A B Hogg are both on the 14 Div RE nominal rolls. John Slyfield in 89 FC and Alexander Hogg in the HQ. Some wounded are named in the WDs of the Field Cos and some are not but I bet he was one of them. I do not know why he was discharged in 1914 days after being embodied. His ship building skills did not follow him into the RE as he was a Driver. Hope to find him in the casualty lists Brian Edited 9 January by brianmorris547 typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianmorris547 Posted 9 January Share Posted 9 January From The Scotsman 30/12/1915. Official Casualty List under Wounded RE. BNL via FMP He would have been wounded four to six weeks before so most likely in the first two weeks of November. This explains why he is not on the CRE 14 Div nominal rolls. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMacN91 Posted 9 January Share Posted 9 January 53 minutes ago, brianmorris547 said: From The Scotsman 30/12/1915. Official Casualty List under Wounded RE. BNL via FMP He would have been wounded four to six weeks before so most likely in the first two weeks of November. This explains why he is not on the CRE 14 Div nominal rolls. Brian Hi Brian, Thank you for the final time, I will wind down my research now for this as I think you have closed all of my open points. I’ll now try and track down descendants which I’m sure will be fun! Thank you, Iain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianmorris547 Posted 10 January Share Posted 10 January Iain I checked the WD of 89 FC again. Dvr Hill was wounded on 06/12/1915. Dvr Gill and Spr Foster are not on the OCL because the Scotsman only named Scots. The full list of RE wounded will be in the OCL in the Times 30/12/1915. Good luck with your research. TNA/Ancestry WO 95/1889 Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearsdenWarMem Posted 25 February Share Posted 25 February Goodness knows who needs to know this but hopefully it will save someone time in the future. Also an appeal to anyone who can account for the 9th A&SH in May 1915. As stated, my interest is in the 9th Battalion in May 1915. Ancestry has one diary specific to this battalion but it only covers Feb 1915 to April 1915. To be more precise the start date is 18th Feb as the battalion leaves Bedford bound for France and ends on 30th April 1915. From The Long, Long Trail I knew the 7th and 9th battalions were merged at a date later in May 1915 so I went to the Ancestry copy of the 7th Battalion War Diary for December 1914 to February 1916. All page numbers are for the version on Ancestry. This begins with the 7th Battalion in January 1916 (page 4) followed by February 1916 (page 6, the diary keeper liked to fit a month on one page where possible.) Then the diary goes back to the 7th Battalion in July 1915 (page 9). This is followed by casualty reports for the 9th Battalion received in July 1915 and covering men wounded between April and July 1915 (pages 11 to 29). It is back to month-by-month diary format (all relating to the 7th Btn) covering August 1915 (page 30), September (pages 32 to 33), October (35 to 37), November (39-42), December (44-45). Next the war diary format jumps back to the 7th Btn in December 1914 (page 48) and then January 1915 (page 50), February (52), March (54, including reference to maps in an appendix which does not seem to be included), April (56-58), May (60). A more detailed account of the events of 24 May 1915 affecting the 7th battalion follows (65-75). Then we are back to casualty reports for the 9th Battalion received in April and May (77-91). We finish with the war diary for the combined 7th/9th battalion in June 1915 (page 93) and casualty reports for the 9th Btn received in that month (mainly May 1915, pages 95-107). To summarise: (1) if you are interested in the 9th Battalion you have some very detailed information on casualties (although in the case I was searching for, a newspaper report of the time had already given me more info than was in the casualty reports) but there seems to be no day-by-day war diary for May 1915. As the battalion was hugely affected by events around the 8th-10th May and then the 24th this is unfortunate. (2) if you are interested in the 7th battalion you have a good top level view of events but in line with the diary's author preferring one page per month there is some times very little detail and nothing akin to the detailed casualty returns for the 9th. Any maps that might have been prepared as appendices have not been included. (3) the document itself is out-of-order, hopefully the above will help guide you to the right pages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 26 February Admin Share Posted 26 February 9 hours ago, BearsdenWarMem said: (3) the document itself is out-of-order, hopefully the above will help guide you to the right pages. Thank you for the information. It is by no means unusual for the diary pages to have been digitised out of order. I guess with such an undertaking the pages were taken out of the boxes and not checked. I assume you have read the 10th Brigade Diary which is very detailed for the months of April and May and contains the most extensive list of 'recommendations' I have seen in any diary, right down to recommendations for 'Gallantry Cards' There is an after action report for the 24th May 1915. I fear the 9th Argylls, who were in support took little part in the action after 5.50a.m. The 81st Brigade Diary does not appear to be on Ancestry. The 27th Divisional Headquarters diary is, and notes the movement of the Brigade and some elements including the 9th Argylls in the action on the 8th-10th May. There is also a fascinating narrative at TNA from the Divisional Commander d'O. Snow which covers the formation of the Division until he handed over Command. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/h/C14054400 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Open Bolt Posted 26 February Share Posted 26 February See also Original thread merged with this one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearsdenWarMem Posted 26 February Share Posted 26 February Thank you for taking the time to reply. I am going to suggest to the admin that they delete this thread and I will try to sum up the sources available for this battalion (including an edited version of how to find things in the war diary) and I will re-post it on the 2010 thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearsdenWarMem Posted 26 February Share Posted 26 February What an absolute gold-mine this site is. I am going to try to summarise the sources that have been identified in this thread - basically it is the post I wish I had read 24 hours ago! Credit for identifying sources to kenf48, sotonmate, warthur, jlang, colin w taylor and anyone I have forgotten The war diary of 1/9th Battalion A&SH for May 1915 is missing. The war diary of the 7th Battalion contains casualty lists for the 9th Battalion for May The battalion was part of 81 Brigade in the first part of the month and in 10 Brigade later in the month - both are helpful. TNA has a report by Major-General Snow on 27th Division (including 81 Brigade) - https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/h/C14054400 War diaries for battalions neighbouring the 9th might be helpful: 1/9th Royal Scots, 2 Dublin Fusiliers, 7 A&SH "The Great War 1914-18: Impact on Kirkintilloch" contains letters from men serving in the battalion to the local paper Extract from "Deeds That Thrill the Empire" - Glasgow Evening Times Roll of Honour Charles Warr "The Unseen Host", chapter titled Sed Miles Sed Pro Patria" Helensburgh Library have a copy of a roll of the officers of the battalion published in 1937 Websites including https://www.helensburgh-heritage.co.uk/ Helensburgh heritage Centre https://bedfordhighlanders.blogspot.com/ The Highland Division in Bedford 1914-15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearsdenWarMem Posted 26 February Share Posted 26 February 8 hours ago, kenf48 said: Thank you for the information. It is by no means unusual for the diary pages to have been digitised out of order. I guess with such an undertaking the pages were taken out of the boxes and not checked. I assume you have read the 10th Brigade Diary which is very detailed for the months of April and May and contains the most extensive list of 'recommendations' I have seen in any diary, right down to recommendations for 'Gallantry Cards' There is an after action report for the 24th May 1915. I fear the 9th Argylls, who were in support took little part in the action after 5.50a.m. The 81st Brigade Diary does not appear to be on Ancestry. The 27th Divisional Headquarters diary is, and notes the movement of the Brigade and some elements including the 9th Argylls in the action on the 8th-10th May. There is also a fascinating narrative at TNA from the Divisional Commander d'O. Snow which covers the formation of the Division until he handed over Command. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/h/C14054400 Many thanks, Ken, I really appreciate it. As you will see 'Open Bolt' has flagged another thread started in 2010 and I think the info would sit better in there. I have just posted a summary of the sources you suggested plus those identified in the 2010 at the end of the 2010 thread. I therefore suggest you delete this thread to keep everything in one place. Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 26 February Admin Share Posted 26 February 32 minutes ago, BearsdenWarMem said: As you will see 'Open Bolt' has flagged another thread started in 2010 and I think the info would sit better in there. I see I posted on that thread too, I knew it rang a bell. (Always pays to do a GWF search ) Threads merged and retitled. Though I see the attachments have been lost in the merge, perhaps you could repost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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