7th and 9th Battalion Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders Ypres 1915

[warthur]

Using the Evening Times roll of honour I have been able to put together a list of 1/9th casulties for May June 1915 . I tried to attach it but it is too big for the system . If you you send me your e-mail address i will try to send it that way . Unfortunately copies of those entries are very expensive see below . I am hoping to vsit Glasgow and try to get the info directly from the Mitchell library archives

Dear Mr Ronald,

Thank you for your enquiry which was passed on to us by the Archives Department.

The entries in the Roll of Honour are taken from copies of the Evening Times, a Glasgow newspaper. We would be able to furnish you with copies of the newspaper articles at a cost of £3.75 per item an A4 sized digital print (The newspapers can only be copied this way as they are heavy bound volumes and cannot be placed on a photocopier) We cannot, unfortunately, e-mail them to you so there would also be a charge for postage, depending on the amount you require. The items can also be scanned on to a disc but the cost is quite high- £12.80 per image.

If you wish to go ahead with this, can you let me know and I will send a photocopy order form to you. I have your postal address on the e-mail.

Regards,

Christine Henderson

Librarian

Special Collections

[jlang]

Hi Arthur

The Mitchell costs seem to be driven by the difficulty of getting copies from large newspapers. I think the National Library of Scotland (Edinburgh) and the British Library (London) have microfilm copies of the Evening Times. This may be a cheaper route when you are over here from Canada. Also, the British Library copy may be more accessible to Anthony. I seem to remember a post on this forum (or the WFA one) about British (or English) local public libraries being able to borrow such microfilm from the British Library.

Apparently the Evening Times indexing is done by the library staff when they get chance between staffing the desk and answering the phone.

Cheers

Jim

[warthur]

It is some time since I posted regarding my project on the 1/9th A&SH I have made quite a bit of progress . I believe I have the CWGC information on all of the KIA / DOW including grave or memorial locations . ( and some pictues of the sites ) Thanks to responses from forum members I believe I have identified the majority of the wounded and decorated . I had been searching without success for a copy of "Dunbartonshire Men at the Front " ( a 1980's publication by Joardanhill teachers College in Glasgow . However I was recently in Glasgow for a few days and visited the Mitchell Libray archives and found that they have a small publication called With the 9th Argylls in France and Flanders . appears to be a combination of extracts from the battalion war diary plus some personal recollections . It includes a number of pictures . The Mitchell reference number SRH 355 31 Arg /Wit 47863. It was published by Mcaneur & Bryden Helensburgh. On further research I found a web site with a photo gallery courtesy of Helensburgh Heritage Trust. This a very intersting site .

I also obtained some information from their archives of the Glasgow Evening Times Roll of Honour .

I hope that this of interest .

Arthur

 

On 27/07/2010 at 04:11, Tom A McCluskey said:

Canuk,

I wish you all the best with your project studying the 9th Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders. Study of the Argylls, during the Great War, is a very difficult project. Unfortunately, there does not appear to be a detailed history available. I have Lieutenant-Colonel G I Malcolm's wee green book which glances over each battalion. Here is what it says about the 9th:

As the 9th battalion Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders it was so heavily engaged in the severe fighting in the Ypres Salient early in 1915, that by the end of May it had been reduced to a strength of 2 Officers and 85 men. This Company (for it was little more) was then amalgamated with the 8th Argylls for the remainder of the war.

I hope this is of use.

I will have a look in the Camerons' history for you.

Aye

Tom McC

[pispek]

Arthur, I am new and from Helensburgh. Perhaps you are aware that there is a book 'Roll of Officers 1st dumbartonshire Volunteer Rifle Corps & 9th Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders' pubished in 1937, compiled from the files of the London Gazette, Official Army Lists, Regimental records, and other sources. it is availalbe at Helensburgh Library Rference section LC 929.5. Helensbugh Heritage Trust is a great site, indeed. i hope this helps.

It is some time since I posted regarding my project on the 1/9th A&SH I have made quite a bit of progress . I believe I have the CWGC information on all of the KIA / DOW including grave or memorial locations . ( and some pictues of the sites ) Thanks to responses from forum members I believe I have identified the majority of the wounded and decorated . I had been searching without success for a copy of "Dunbartonshire Men at the Front " ( a 1980's publication by Joardanhill teachers College in Glasgow . However I was recently in Glasgow for a few days and visited the Mitchell Libray archives and found that they have a small publication called With the 9th Argylls in France and Flanders . appears to be a combination of extracts from the battalion war diary plus some personal recollections . It includes a number of pictures . The Mitchell reference number SRH 355 31 Arg /Wit 47863. It was published by Mcaneur & Bryden Helensburgh. On further research I found a web site with a photo gallery courtesy of Helensburgh Heritage Trust. This a very intersting site .

I also obtained some information from their archives of the Glasgow Evening Times Roll of Honour .

I hope that this of interest .

Arthur

My link

[warthur]

Thank you for the lead . I am familiar witht he Helensburgh Heritage Trust Site . Can you acces the Library Reference section information from this site on line ? I don't see a link t - I may be missing something . Perhaps I need to become a member I would be happy to do that . Further I would delighted to share my information withanyone from the Trust or Libray that would be interested Arthur

Arthur, I am new and from Helensburgh. Perhaps you are aware that there is a book 'Roll of Officers 1st dumbartonshire Volunteer Rifle Corps & 9th Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders' pubished in 1937, compiled from the files of the London Gazette, Official Army Lists, Regimental records, and other sources. it is availalbe at Helensburgh Library Rference section LC 929.5. Helensbugh Heritage Trust is a great site, indeed. i hope this helps.

[warthur]

Further to my previous posting could you give me the name and e-mail address of someone atthe Helensburgh Library reference section that I could contact regarding obtaining information from the 1937 publication ? I would be happy to pay for photocopies . The information you describe would be invaluable . i have been seeking the original muster records of the 1/9th from August 1914 and this publication might assist . Regards Arthur

[pispek]

Sorry, I wasn't on the forum for a while. I am afraid there is no direct link to Helensburgh Library. They are quite short staffed and whoever is on duty will deal with request regarding the reference books. if you tell me what you are looking for in the book, i can try to photocopy it for you, if this suits you.

Regards,

George

Further to my previous posting could you give me the name and e-mail address of someone atthe Helensburgh Library reference section that I could contact regarding obtaining information from the 1937 publication ? I would be happy to pay for photocopies . The information you describe would be invaluable . i have been seeking the original muster records of the 1/9th from August 1914 and this publication might assist . Regards Arthur

[warthur]

Thank you George for your reply .

On re reading your original e-mail I note that the book is a roll of officers . Actually what I am looking for is a muster roll of the officers and men who embarked for France in early 1915 . As I noted I have the identified the majority of KIA , mising and wounded . In fact I have one provate , Mathew Dochery who was missing preumed dead in 1915 and turned up alive in 1918 . His name is on the Menin gate but he survived . I found the story in a 1918 edition of the Glasgow Sunday Post .

Best wishes

Arthur

Sorry, I wasn't on the forum for a while. I am afraid there is no direct link to Helensburgh Library. They are quite short staffed and whoever is on duty will deal with request regarding the reference books. if you tell me what you are looking for in the book, i can try to photocopy it for you, if this suits you.

Regards,

George

[pispek]

Sorry, this is just a roll of officers. Private Dochery is not in it. If he was from Helensburgh or the close vicinity the sotry might be in the local paper. Do you know the date when he went missing and the date of the article in the Sunday Post?

Best Wishes,

George

Thank you George for your reply .

On re reading your original e-mail I note that the book is a roll of officers . Actually what I am looking for is a muster roll of the officers and men who embarked for France in early 1915 . As I noted I have the identified the majority of KIA , mising and wounded . In fact I have one provate , Mathew Dochery who was missing preumed dead in 1915 and turned up alive in 1918 . His name is on the Menin gate but he survived . I found the story in a 1918 edition of the Glasgow Sunday Post .

Best wishes

Arthur

[warthur]

Good morning George ,

Thank you for your reply . Pte Docherrty came from Dumbarton . The Sunday Post story was August 18th 1918 . I tried to attatch the article in pff format to my reply but it was too large . Best regards Arthur

Sorry, this is just a roll of officers. Private Dochery is not in it. If he was from Helensburgh or the close vicinity the sotry might be in the local paper. Do you know the date when he went missing and the date of the article in the Sunday Post?

Best Wishes,

George

[jlang]

Hi Arthur

Your recent posting reminded me that I should post that I have confirmed that the my great uncle (see post #32) was in the 1/9^thA&SH. I was pretty sure from using the numbers on his MIC and the Long Long Trail on renumbering of the Territorial Force (http://www.1914-1918...renumbering.htm and http://www.1914-1918...ng_infantry.htm). I had a brief visit to the National Archives in London with a poor camera and looked at the relevant roll numbers for his 1915 Star and Victory and British War Medals. The 1915 star roll is an alphabetical list (for the Regiment or for the battalion?) while that for the other two looks like it is in numerical order using the 6 digit TF (re)numbers so those with 1/9^thA&SH numbers should all be together. It also gives original numbers. Maybe these would be good sources for your work. Even better if they were in Canada! I will email you the photos to the address given earlier in this thread.

Have you seen Paul Nixon's invaluable work (http://armyservicenu...ighlanders.html)?

You could search the National Archives for "Argyll and SutherlandHighlanders" 325*** (choosing 325*** as the Long Long trail gives the 9^th renumbered as 325001 to 350,000) and get a list as in http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/search-results.asp?searchtype=powersearch&query=scope%3d%22argyll%20and%20sutherland%20highlanders%22%20%20325***&first_date=19140101&last_date=19191231&catid=10&mediaarray=*&pagenumber=1&querytype=1 and then change to 326***, …. to 349*** and 325000. This should give you a list of all the MICs and hence 9^th men serving at and after the date of the renumbering. I think if you had Ancestry website access you could probably search the MICs themselves and get (after a bit of keyword refinement and hard work) all those who had the 1915 star and then those with the date of entry of the battalion (19/2/15 ish).

Apologies if you know all this already.

Best wishes

Jim

[RBK1]

Hello again Arthur,

It is some time since I have been on this site but I am still trying [without success] to locate that casualty list for the 9th Argylls.

I have their diaries from a visit to the PRO but couldn't find any casualty list in the files at the time.

I am therefore still endeavouring to get hold of a copy.

I wonder would you be able to help in this regard?

I'm happy to let you have my email address and have PM'd you with it, in advance, incase you are able to assist in any way.

I do have access to a certain amount of archive and publications on the battalion in return, if you are interested.

With thanks,

Mary xx

[warthur]

Thank you Jim for the information . I have been away for some time and not able access the internet so i have fallen behind in my replies . Best wishes Arthur

Hi Arthur

Your recent posting reminded me that I should post that I have confirmed that the my great uncle (see post #32) was in the 1/9^thA&SH. I was pretty sure from using the numbers on his MIC and the Long Long Trail on renumbering of the Territorial Force (http://www.1914-1918...renumbering.htm and http://www.1914-1918...ng_infantry.htm). I had a brief visit to the National Archives in London with a poor camera and looked at the relevant roll numbers for his 1915 Star and Victory and British War Medals. The 1915 star roll is an alphabetical list (for the Regiment or for the battalion?) while that for the other two looks like it is in numerical order using the 6 digit TF (re)numbers so those with 1/9^thA&SH numbers should all be together. It also gives original numbers. Maybe these would be good sources for your work. Even better if they were in Canada! I will email you the photos to the address given earlier in this thread.

Have you seen Paul Nixon's invaluable work (http://armyservicenu...ighlanders.html)?

You could search the National Archives for "Argyll and SutherlandHighlanders" 325*** (choosing 325*** as the Long Long trail gives the 9^th renumbered as 325001 to 350,000) and get a list as in http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/search-results.asp?searchtype=powersearch&query=scope%3d%22argyll%20and%20sutherland%20highlanders%22%20%20325***&first_date=19140101&last_date=19191231&catid=10&mediaarray=*&pagenumber=1&querytype=1 and then change to 326***, …. to 349*** and 325000. This should give you a list of all the MICs and hence 9^th men serving at and after the date of the renumbering. I think if you had Ancestry website access you could probably search the MICs themselves and get (after a bit of keyword refinement and hard work) all those who had the 1915 star and then those with the date of entry of the battalion (19/2/15 ish).

Apologies if you know all this already.

Best wishes

Jim

[warthur]

Hi Jim , I have now had a chance to review the great references which you provided in particular ,Paul Nixon's work which I had not previously seen . Many thanks . regards Arthur

Hi Arthur

Your recent posting reminded me that I should post that I have confirmed that the my great uncle (see post #32) was in the 1/9^thA&SH. I was pretty sure from using the numbers on his MIC and the Long Long Trail on renumbering of the Territorial Force (http://www.1914-1918...renumbering.htm and http://www.1914-1918...ng_infantry.htm). I had a brief visit to the National Archives in London with a poor camera and looked at the relevant roll numbers for his 1915 Star and Victory and British War Medals. The 1915 star roll is an alphabetical list (for the Regiment or for the battalion?) while that for the other two looks like it is in numerical order using the 6 digit TF (re)numbers so those with 1/9^thA&SH numbers should all be together. It also gives original numbers. Maybe these would be good sources for your work. Even better if they were in Canada! I will email you the photos to the address given earlier in this thread.

Have you seen Paul Nixon's invaluable work (http://armyservicenu...ighlanders.html)?

You could search the National Archives for "Argyll and SutherlandHighlanders" 325*** (choosing 325*** as the Long Long trail gives the 9^th renumbered as 325001 to 350,000) and get a list as in http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/search-results.asp?searchtype=powersearch&query=scope%3d%22argyll%20and%20sutherland%20highlanders%22%20%20325***&first_date=19140101&last_date=19191231&catid=10&mediaarray=*&pagenumber=1&querytype=1 and then change to 326***, …. to 349*** and 325000. This should give you a list of all the MICs and hence 9^th men serving at and after the date of the renumbering. I think if you had Ancestry website access you could probably search the MICs themselves and get (after a bit of keyword refinement and hard work) all those who had the 1915 star and then those with the date of entry of the battalion (19/2/15 ish).

Apologies if you know all this already.

Best wishes

Jim

[jlang]

Hi Arthur,

No problem. I thought you had thanked me in an email. My wife tells me I get withdrawal symptoms if I get get on the internet!

Cheers

Jim

[warthur]

I you will see from my posts I have a particular interest in the history of the 1/9th Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders .Following mobilization in August 1914 the the Higland Division which included at that time the 1/9th was billeted in Bedford prior to proceeding to France .

I recently came across a website which describes the impact of the Highland Division on the town of Bedford . It includes some wonderful pictures . ( I have attached the one which I believe is iconic for the period . Note the variety of uniforms due to shortages )I thought that it might be useful to any forum member with an interest in Highland battalion 1914/ 1915 period.

bedfordhighlanders.blogspot.com

[Guest ewanarm]

Hi

Don't know if this thread is still alive but I am keenly interested in the movements of the 1/9th Argylls at Ypres in 1915 as my great grandfather, Major William Buchan Armstrong RAMC was the medical officer during this time. it was reported that when the battalion was decimated by losses and reduced in numbers to 2 officers and 85 men, he was one of the surviving officers. Any information would be gratefully appreciated.

[Guest ewanarm]

Hi

I am keenly interested in the movements of the 1/9th Argylls at Ypres in 1915 as my great grandfather, Major William Buchan Armstrong RAMC was the medical officer during this time. it was reported that when the battalion was decimated by losses and reduced in numbers to 2 officers and 85 men, he was one of the surviving officers. Any information would be gratefully appreciated.

[GraemeClarke]

Hi

The War Diary is available up to for:

1915 Feb. - Apr.

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=C7353473

Regards,

Graeme

[gnr.ktrha]

Hi,
   Does anyone know if the battalion adopted the 4 company system and if so, which companies joined together to form the new 4 companies? Also, I am having difficulty finding much info about what they were doing on the 8th of May 1915. I know the Bn was deployed in two halfs, on half was between the Bellerwaard Lake and Hooge, the other was up near Railway wood. Does anyone have any details about what they were doing this day? The War Diary has not survived for this period, but casualty returns are in the 7th Bn A&SH diary.
             Many thanks 

[Neill Gilhooley]

Certainly 9th Royal Scots were subject to their heaviest bombardment of the war to date on 8th May, and suffered casualties accordingly. I would fully expect them to be in four companies from 1st Jan 1915 (for reference 9th RS were formed: A&E became the new A Company, B+D=B, C+G=C, F+H=D Company ). Here are some notes on 9th A&SH I made some years back, but I am not sure it adds much to your knowledge:

On 8th May, due to attacks on 80th Brigade, half the 9th A&S reinforced the left flank behind Bellewaarde ridge with the rest in front of Hooge Chateau. On 10th May they went to support 2/Cameron Highrs at the Menin Road just as the Germans advanced. Lt-Col Clark was killed shortly afterwards. On 9th and 10th May they lost about 350 men. On 11th May, 200 strong, they made Zouave Wood a strong point. 18th May saw them formed as a half-battalion (organised as two companies), ‘owing to the lack of Territorial recruits, the engagement of whom had been interfered with by enrolments for the New Army’[Official History]. Moved to 4th Division. They fought in the furious battle of 24th May at Bellewaarde, holding the support line behind Mouse Trap Farm. They mustered at night on 25th May as 3 officers and 85 men, Major Christie being severely wounded.[MO]

9th Argylls moved to 10th Brigade, 4th Division on 21st May 1915

Monday 9th May: 'The Camerons and 1st Royal Scots on our left were violently attacked, and at one moment we saw reserves (the 9th Argylls) advancing with bayonets flashing in the sun on our left and behind us.' from B Company on Active Service https://neillgilhooley.com/9th-royal-scots/b-company-on-active-service/ (a few comments on the 9th Argylls are made at the end of chapter 2).

 

[gnr.ktrha]

Hi Neill,
            Just saw your reply, thanks for posting and for the link. I am off there now to have a wee look.
                     Many thanks.

[IMacN91]

Hello,

Newbie to the forum, I found this thread incredibly interesting. My Gran passed away recently and I discovered an old photograph postcard and a death penny for an Arthur Hill who signed up in 1913 for the A&SH 1/9th in Dumbarton. This would be my great uncle on my mums side. 

He fell May 10/11th 1915 and from this thread it sounds as if was during the battle at Frezenberg.

I’m not 100% the fellow in the photo is Arthur Hill, and would love to find some photographs to cross reference this with. I’ve posted on a Facebook group and the information I’ve received such as the pre-war dress makes me believe it is, the postcard would be to his sister in law. 

I’m based in Glasgow and will attend the Mitchell Library, albeit I will email first to understand the rules. 

Is there any war diaries covering the period in May 1915 for the A&SH? 

He is listed as “died from wounds” from the records I found. Is it possible to find out more information? 

I know from the CWGC where he is buried, and will attend when I’m in France for work in the coming months. 
 

Thank you. 

[kenf48]

Welcome to the GWF 

The war diary for the 1/9 for the month of May 1915 appears to be missing as noted above. It was probably lost in the transition period described by @Neill Gilhooley

There is a link above for the period to April 1915 currently free if you register. It will at least give a flavour of his service with the BEF albeit brief before his death.

You could also download the higher echelon diaries, i.e. the Brigade and Divisional diaries to gain a fuller picture.

[IMacN91]

On 02/01/2024 at 23:20, kenf48 said:

Welcome to the GWF 

The war diary for the 1/9 for the month of May 1915 appears to be missing as noted above. It was probably lost in the transition period described by @Neill Gilhooley

There is a link above for the period to April 1915 currently free if you register. It will at least give a flavour of his service with the BEF albeit brief before his death.

You could also download the higher echelon diaries, i.e. the Brigade and Divisional diaries to gain a fuller picture.

Hi Ken,

Thank you very much for the response. I lose all concept of time when I’m researching, I have downloaded the diary mentioned above and will move on to the brigade and divisional diaries now.

Thanks again