Ground Observers in RFC

[FionaBam]

12 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

be corrected because that makes 9!!)

Great work thanks .

Ha ha ...the mystery soldier ...Miss Marple is required...( sorry been watching too much Xmas TV!)

[FROGSMILE]

Just now, FionaBam said:

I see thanks . but recognition of an extra skill and a few pence per day meant quite a bit in 1916.

It was common to encourage commitment and proficiency by remunerating special skills.  You will also see that each of the soldiers shown by Charlie received class one proficiency pay.  A new soldier generally completed basic training as class three.  After a period of time he became class two and often after passing a test of knowledge became class one.  Each ascending step attracted an increment in extra pay.  

[FionaBam]

5 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

SP was usually just a few pence “per diem”.

Rangetaker rather than Ranger.  

Ooh Thanks.

Iwould like to have a go at using one of them.as an ex sailor/ navigator I like using such equipment 

[FionaBam]

2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

class one proficiency pay.  A new

So their role was a valued one - being fast tracked to Class One immediately 

Edited 30 December , 2023 by FionaBam

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, FionaBam said:

So their role was a valued one - being fast tracked to Class One immediately 

I assume as a follow on from the training they’d received and ‘skills tests’ passed.  That was the usual process.  Proficiency had to be proven and wasn’t just a given so testing competency was routine.  Although not inviolate it was usually the case that a man could not become an NCO until he had attained class one proficiency.

Edited 30 December , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[charlie962]

Was the term Observer in the RE defined?

We are discussing ground based aircraft observation but was the same title used for others eg Flash Spotters?

(Quite apart from Observer aircrew and from Forward Observation Officers in the RA !)

 

@Terry_Reeves perhaps you are the expert?

Edited 30 December , 2023 by charlie962

[FionaBam]

4 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I assume as a follow on from the training they’d received and ‘skills tests’ passed.  That was the usual process.

@MikeMeech so you can catch this information for your Signallers project 

 

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Was the term Observer in the RE defined?

We are discussing ground based aircraft observation but was the same title used for others eg Flash Spotters?

(Quite apart from Observer aircrew and from Forward Observation Officers in the RA !)

I don’t know Charlie, it’s a good question.  I suspect that the term observer probably had multiple use’s according to the arm of service.  We already know that the RFC had air observers, and from what Fiona’s now said about her forebear, ground observers too.

Edited 30 December , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FionaBam]

Aside but interesting as comparision:

From the marvellous book by Wing Commander C.G.Jefford :Observers and Navigators - and other non-pilot aircrew in the RFC,RNAS and RAF" , where his detail is unsurpassable and he explains the problems that arose due to not recognising the value of the role of Observer in the air warfare, here is a bit about the development of Observer skills for night time bombing and the academic syllabus they were taught 

see from "It is quite clear from.."  ..to "were conducted as crews."

................

Am still looking for mention of Ground Observers ( Jeffords Index is Names only)but suspect he chose to concentrate only on the fliers here .

I love his Citations of all the AIR files he quotes from.how useful is that!

Copywright 2001 C.G.Jefford . Air life Publishing .

Edited 30 December , 2023 by FionaBam

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, FionaBam said:

Aside but interesting as comparision:

From the marvellous book by Wing Commander C.G.Jefford :Observers and Navigators - and other non-pilot aircrew in the RFC,RNAS and RAF" , where his detail is unsurpassable and he explains the problems that arose due to not recognising the value of the role of Observer in the air warfare, here is a bit about the development of Observer skills for night time bombing and the academic syllabus they were taught 

see from "It is quite clear from.."  ..to "were conducted as crews."

................

Am still looking for mention of Ground Observers ( Jeffords Index is Names only)but suspect he chose to concentrate only on the fliers here .

I love his Citations of all the AIR files he quotes from.how useful is that!

The clue’s in the term “aircrew” so ground observers wouldn’t be covered.

Edited 30 December , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FionaBam]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

the term “aircrew

I know but perhaps like me Jefford would have gone " off topic" to draw a comparison/ make a point?...

No- he was in the RAF!

[charlie962]

1 hour ago, FionaBam said:

Aside but interesting as comparision:

From the marvellous book by Wing Commander C.G.Jefford :Observers and Navigators - and other non-pilot aircrew in the RFC,RNAS and RAF" , where his detail is unsurpassable and he explains the problems that arose due to not recognising the value of the role of Observer in the air warfare, here is a bit about the development of Observer skills for night time bombing and the academic syllabus they were taught 

see from "It is quite clear from.."  ..to "were conducted as crews."

................

Am still looking for mention of Ground Observers ( Jeffords Index is Names only)but suspect he chose to concentrate only on the fliers here .

I love his Citations of all the AIR files he quotes from.how useful is that!

Copywright 2001 C.G.Jefford . Air life Publishing .

I have the book!

[FionaBam]

1 hour ago, charlie962 said:

I have the book!

Really! Isnt it great ! Looking up the author online , he was giving talks in c.2000. Not sure if he is still with us or not

Edit - In 2005 Jefford was Editor & Publications Manager of the RAF Historical Society.

 

Edited 30 December , 2023 by FionaBam

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, FionaBam said:

I know but perhaps like me Jefford would have gone " off topic" to draw a comparison/ make a point?...

No- he was in the RAF!

I imagine that the early RAF would have continued to promote ground liaison with the Army.  Certainly it remained an important specialisation into WW2 and beyond, when the description of he who functioned in that capacity eventually became Forward Air Controller (FAC). 

Edited 30 December , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FionaBam]

6 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

eventually became Forward Air Controller (FAC). 

Thank you .that's some job title.  Would like to see the job descrip.!

I wonder how many FAC's per pilot.

[FROGSMILE]

33 minutes ago, FionaBam said:

Thank you .that's some job title.  Would like to see the job descrip.!

I wonder how many FAC's per pilot.

Usually a single FAC party** per infantry battalion, or other combatant unit.

**eventually evolved to e.g. an officer plus two other ranks (radio operators), but could vary according to need

Edited 30 December , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FionaBam]

18 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Could vary according to need

Thanks.

Glad it could increase capacity when needed.

Now I want to know why the RAF  phased out ( I presume this from your text) the FAC role . Now we have computers programmed  to provide information for ground forces ? Next it will be AI.

Way off topic ....😔

Edited 30 December , 2023 by FionaBam

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, FionaBam said:

Thanks.

Glad it could increase capacity when needed.

Now I want to know why the RAF  phased out ( I presume this from your text) the FAC role . Now we have computers programmed  to provide information for ground forces ? Next it will be AI.

Way off topic ....😔

No not phased out at all, but evolved to control all air launched support including UAV drones, but we’re now going down rabbit holes away from WW1, which it would be better to avoid. 

Edited 30 December , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FionaBam]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

which it would be better to avoid. 

Indeed but thanks for the information.  Nice to draw a historical line and connection 

[FROGSMILE]

Just now, FionaBam said:

Indeed but thanks for the information.  Nice to draw a historical line and connection 

Yes it’s all lineal development that’s for sure!

[FionaBam]

29 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

 

Edited 30 December , 2023 by FionaBam
Deleted.way off topic

[MikeMeech]

2 hours ago, FionaBam said:

Really! Isnt it great ! Looking up the author online , he was giving talks in c.2000. Not sure if he is still with us or not

Edit - In 2005 Jefford was Editor & Publications Manager of the RAF Historical Society.

 

Hi

Yes, he is still around and involved with the RAFHS, I spoke to him at the last meeting in October.

My signalling project is about the signalling methods used for ground to air and air to ground communications, this includes signalling panels eg. Shutter/Popham/Ingram etc (Popham Panel is a term that is regularly misused, particularly online), signalling strips of different kinds, signalling lamps (air and ground) various pyrotechnics, plus infantry devices and wireless.  I also aim to include the telephone system that integrated the air and ground, Kite Balloons is an obvious example but it was judged early in the war that it was important to connect airdromes with HQs and were connected to anti-aircraft batteries etc.  The MESPOT theatre has some interesting devices (based on strips)  used by the LAMB (Light Armoured Motor Batteries) and LOPs (Look Out Posts). 

It is quite a big project and I am still working on it and have to sort out how to divide it up for publication due to the overlaps inherent in their use.

Mike  

[FionaBam]

19 minutes ago, MikeMeech said:

Signalling strips of different kinds, 

Fascinating project with as you said a wide range of services to cover but how interesting to see what worked /didn't work in different settings and circumstances. 

19 minutes ago, MikeMeech said:

involved with the RAFHS, I

That's  great news . Couldnt you persuade Wg.Cmmdr Jefford to give an online talk for the Great War Aviation society ( AKA Cross & Cockade ) ?

Any topic of his choice  WW1 aviation related ?

☺️☺️

Edit  photo of WW1 canvas message air strip . Was that from you Mike last year ?! Or another forum member @Airshipped?

Edited 30 December , 2023 by FionaBam
Add photo

[MikeMeech]

1 hour ago, FionaBam said:

Fascinating project with as you said a wide range of services to cover but how interesting to see what worked /didn't work in different settings and circumstances. 

That's  great news . Couldnt you persuade Wg.Cmmdr Jefford to give an online talk for the Great War Aviation society ( AKA Cross & Cockade ) ?

Any topic of his choice  WW1 aviation related ?

☺️☺️

Edit  photo of WW1 canvas message air strip . Was that from you Mike last year ?! Or another forum member @Airshipped?

Hi

He is a member of the society.

The photo was taken by me (notice cotton reel for scale) at the RAF Museum.  It is one that could be handled, supplied by Vernon Creek, we did try out a tin map tube in it, the tube would not stay in with the single fastener.  The tube would have been secure if it had two fasteners as some did, probably.

Mike

[FionaBam]

22 minutes ago, MikeMeech said:

He is a member of the society.

Thank you Mike. Thats grand. 

 

22 minutes ago, MikeMeech said:

tube would not stay in with the single fastener

You dropped it from a 2 seater bi-plane?!

I hope they realised 2 fasteners were needed but tricky to handle if flying alone or even double handed with cold hands etc

Edited 30 December , 2023 by FionaBam