FionaBam Posted 29 December , 2023 Share Posted 29 December , 2023 (edited) Can anyone guide me on where to find information about the role of " ground observers" ? Especially those G.Obvs. who were on the strength of the RFC? There is plenty about the Observation Corps in WW2. I read online that " The Observation Corps ( in WW2) had its roots in WW1. The first efforts at training ground observers to recognize and report airplanes by type had the practical purpose of reducing losses to friendly fire. Pursuit pilots and anti-aircraft gunners needed not only to see the aircraft but to be able to tell friend from foe." But annoyingly cannot find anything about these ground observers in WW1. Thanks in advance for any advice . Edited 29 December , 2023 by FionaBam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nils d Posted 29 December , 2023 Share Posted 29 December , 2023 Ground observers mightn't have existed in WW1.Who would fulfill the same role? Anti-aircraft batteries, .and possibly KB companies as they were near the front with a vested interest in spotting incoming aircraft and they had a telephone line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FionaBam Posted 29 December , 2023 Author Share Posted 29 December , 2023 4 minutes ago, nils d said: possibly KB companies Thank you Nils d. What are these please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianjonesncl Posted 29 December , 2023 Share Posted 29 December , 2023 Sir Martin Farndale's History of the Royal Regiment of Artillery The Forgotten Front and the Home Base 1914-1918 records the appointment of Commander AA Defences Southern Command in January 1917. Amongst the units under his command are Anti-Aircraft Observation Posts 0f the Observer Corps from Grantham to Portsmouth. I can not see any additional information, however it would appear a sizeable organisation existed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 29 December , 2023 Share Posted 29 December , 2023 There were Observer Companies in the Royal Defence Corps in WW1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FionaBam Posted 29 December , 2023 Author Share Posted 29 December , 2023 57 minutes ago, ianjonesncl said: Observer Corps from Grantham to Portsmouth. Thank you Ian. That's really helpful to know they definitely existed in England in 1917. My period of interest is 1915 to early 1916 , on the trail of my grandfather. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 29 December , 2023 Share Posted 29 December , 2023 The Broad Arrow 5/7/16 carried this (courtesy Findmypast newspapers) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianjonesncl Posted 29 December , 2023 Share Posted 29 December , 2023 15 minutes ago, charlie962 said: There were Observer Companies in the Royal Defence Corps in WW1. From the Long Long Trail.... The Royal Defence Corps of 1916-1918 - The Long, Long Trail (longlongtrail.co.uk) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FionaBam Posted 29 December , 2023 Author Share Posted 29 December , 2023 15 minutes ago, charlie962 said: Observer Companies in the Royal Defence Corps in WW1. Thank you Charlie for this and for the dare I say it most amusing cutting from The Broad Arrow. I assume this was an internal journal for Army Home Front circulation?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeMeech Posted 29 December , 2023 Share Posted 29 December , 2023 3 hours ago, FionaBam said: Can anyone guide me on where to find information about the role of " ground observers" ? Especially those G.Obvs. who were on the strength of the RFC? There is plenty about the Observation Corps in WW2. I read online that " The Observation Corps ( in WW2) had its roots in WW1. The first efforts at training ground observers to recognize and report airplanes by type had the practical purpose of reducing losses to friendly fire. Pursuit pilots and anti-aircraft gunners needed not only to see the aircraft but to be able to tell friend from foe." But annoyingly cannot find anything about these ground observers in WW1. Thanks in advance for any advice . Hi I have collected various documents on AA Defence as part of my signalling methods project, details can depend on the period of war and the theatre of war. An example is from 20 November 1915 in XIII Corps War Diary (WO95/895/1 -page 029) which is a request for 8 gunners required to be trained in observing German aeroplanes. When selected they were go on a course at the 3rd Wing RFC for one week then spend a week with Anti-aircraft guns. If they were found suitable they would then be posted permanently to the Survey Posts existing on the 3rd Army Front. This would all be connected to the telephone system. Of course AA units, KB units etc could also give warnings via the telephone system. There are quite a few documents on the "Zep" message system, which was important in the early stage of the war at least, this system did not report aeroplanes evidently. However, in the MESPOT theatre during 1918 it appears "Zep" messages include aeroplanes. Is there a specific period and theatre you are interested in? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FionaBam Posted 29 December , 2023 Author Share Posted 29 December , 2023 2 minutes ago, ianjonesncl said: From the Long Long Trail.... The Royal Defence Corps of 1916-1918 - The Long, Long Trail (longlongtrail.co.uk) "Men serving in the existing Observer Companies were generally of the regular army. They would be transferred to the RDC from their existing regiments.: Thank you Ian. I noted the above within that section of the Long Long Trail which by my maths means Observer Companies in the regular army existed prior to April 1916 when they were transferred to the new RDC. Query : " regular army "- means they were in active service in the fields of France ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 29 December , 2023 Share Posted 29 December , 2023 (edited) Here's an example of an Other Rank TF man being transferred to the newly formed Observer Companies March 1916. Courtesy Findmypast Edited 29 December , 2023 by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FionaBam Posted 29 December , 2023 Author Share Posted 29 December , 2023 (edited) 18 minutes ago, MikeMeech said: 20 November 1915 in XIII Corps War Diary (WO95/895/1 -page 029) which is Wow! Thank you Mike . This is exactly the month in 1915 where I lose my grandfathers trail! Freddy was not exactly attached or seconded ( no official record in Gazette or in the Wardrobe museum records for his 6th Wiltshire regiment) so it was suggested to me by Wardrobe museum archivist that Freddy was " sent off" to the RFC where his later official records state he was an Observer . Any roll call / list of names on the WO file? Is it digitised at N.A? Where were 3rd Wing RFC geographically located? Freddys ' 6th Wiltshire were in the Indian Corps in Loos area in Sept 1915 according to the Order of Battle. I need to find a map showing the 3rd Army Front .I have this one of the 1st Wing RFC from War in the Air Vol 2 H.A.Jones .Is it the 3rd Army area? Edited 29 December , 2023 by FionaBam Add photo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeMeech Posted 29 December , 2023 Share Posted 29 December , 2023 18 minutes ago, FionaBam said: Wow! Thank you Mike . This is exactly the month in 1915 where I lose my grandfathers trail! Freddy was not exactly attached or seconded ( no official record in Gazette or in the Wardrobe museum records for his 6th Wiltshire regiment) so it was suggested to me by Wardrobe museum archivist that Freddy was " sent off" to the RFC where his later official records state he was an Observer . Any roll call / list of names on the WO file? Is it digitised at N.A? Where were 3rd Wing RFC geographically located? Freddys ' 6th Wiltshire were in the Indian Corps in Loos area in Sept 1915 according to the Order of Battle. I need to find a map showing the 3rd Army Front .I have this one of the 1st Wing RFC from War in the Air Vol 2 H.A.Jones .Is it the 3rd Army area? Hi On 25th September 1915 the 3rd Wing RFC HQ was at Beauval (Adv. HQ at Beauquesne). The names in response to the document I quoted are at WO95/895/1 page 033, in a letter dated 27 November 1915. All appear to have the rank of gunner, Greenhill, Godfrey, Parnell, Marshall, Cardy, Banks, Wright and Grey. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FionaBam Posted 29 December , 2023 Author Share Posted 29 December , 2023 3 minutes ago, MikeMeech said: Hi On 25th September 1915 the 3rd Wing RFC HQ was at Beauval (Adv. HQ at Beauquesne). The names in response to the document I quoted are at WO95/895/1 page 033, in a letter dated 27 November 1915. All appear to have the rank of gunner, Greenhill, Godfrey, Parnell, Marshall, Cardy, Banks, Wright and Grey. Mike Thank you Mike that's very helpful indeed for me. What's the last day of that War Diary please? Am thinking perhaps Freddy joined them later? I know he joins 6th Wilts on 22 Feb 1916 at La Bassee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianjonesncl Posted 29 December , 2023 Share Posted 29 December , 2023 Are there two separate roles here...... The Observation Companies were part of Home Defence in the UK. An Observer in the RFC would be the second person in the aircraft fulfilling an observation tole in France. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FionaBam Posted 29 December , 2023 Author Share Posted 29 December , 2023 2 minutes ago, ianjonesncl said: Are there two separate roles here...... The Observation Companies were part of Home Defence in the UK. An Observer in the RFC would be the second person in the aircraft fulfilling an observation tole in France. Yes indeed there are Ian, and apparently a 3rd role of Observer as a "ground observer" in the RFC on the western front. My problem is: My grandfathers official records state in several different documents that he was in the RFC for a certain period , and additionally on 2 of his official records it states he was an RFC Observer (with dates) However Freddy does not show up as Gazetted to the RFC , seconded or attached , so Wardrobe Museum advised Freddy was sent off to join the RFC as he was under age to take up his Commission as Lt with his 6th Wilt Regiment and he had also previously been in the RFA as a gunner so helpful for the RFC . Further advice recently from a forum member here was about which of the RFC Squadrons to search for Freddy ( great! am off to Kew next week!) and to consider that Freddy might have been a "ground observer" with the RFC . hence my query here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 29 December , 2023 Share Posted 29 December , 2023 Fiona, forgive me for cluttering your thread with UK based stuff. But I found this interesting in relation to the origins of the Observer Corps. Cornishman 15/1/19 "Metropolitan Observation Service" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FionaBam Posted 29 December , 2023 Author Share Posted 29 December , 2023 3 minutes ago, charlie962 said: forgive me for cluttering your thread with UK based stuff. On the contrary, thank you very much, I find that an extremely interesting article , very significant for the defence and protection of the Home Territory and their populations. I only hope the funds were raised for " The M.O.S. bed " at Charing Cross Hospital, a very modest recognition of the value of the work carried out by these men in the Metropolitan Observation Service . I wonder if the M.O.S. bed or some sort of memorial to the organisation remains at Charing Cross Hospital ? Dare I to hope that it does? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 29 December , 2023 Share Posted 29 December , 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, MikeMeech said: The names in response to the document I quoted are at WO95/895/1 page 033, in a letter dated 27 November 1915. All appear to have the rank of gunner, Greenhill, Godfrey, Parnell, Marshall, Cardy, Banks, Wright and Grey. Any initials? I'll happily try and dig for service records but most of these names rather common. If they qualified were they transferred to RE or? (Even Gunner Cardy produces at least 3 14/15 Star possibilities, none with records!) Edited 29 December , 2023 by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FionaBam Posted 29 December , 2023 Author Share Posted 29 December , 2023 2 minutes ago, charlie962 said: Any initials? I'll happily try and dig for service records but most of these names rather common. If they qualified were they transferred to RE or? Thank you Charlie . Frederick Edward Arthur Bambridge I may be sending you on a wild goose chase . Not sure where you plan to look. I already have all available official records for my grandfather plus what Wardrobe museum archivist analysed etc for me. I am going through the WO 95 document that Mike Meech quoted from.its digitised and downloadable free from N.A. though my esteemed collaborator @MikeWsuggests this is not the place to look for Freddy as Freddy was being paid by 6th Wilts and these guys ( in WO 95 )are being trained up then employed permanently . Copywright National Archives at Kew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 29 December , 2023 Share Posted 29 December , 2023 1 minute ago, FionaBam said: Frederick Edward Arthur Bambridge I will already have looked for him in an earlier thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FionaBam Posted 29 December , 2023 Author Share Posted 29 December , 2023 2 minutes ago, charlie962 said: I will already have looked for him in an earlier thread! Ha ha oh dear! It's me again then .that bad penny... 😔 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FionaBam Posted 29 December , 2023 Author Share Posted 29 December , 2023 3 hours ago, charlie962 said: Here's an example of an Other Rank TF man being transferred to the newly formed Observer Companies March 1916. Courtesy Findmypast Thank you this is interesting to see Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeMeech Posted 29 December , 2023 Share Posted 29 December , 2023 2 hours ago, charlie962 said: Any initials? I'll happily try and dig for service records but most of these names rather common. If they qualified were they transferred to RE or? (Even Gunner Cardy produces at least 3 14/15 Star possibilities, none with records!) Hi For those interested their indicated details are: No. 1270. Gr. A W Greenhill, Ammn. Col., 1/1st London Bde., RFA. No. 1056. Gr. J G Godfrey. " " " No. 1190. Gr. F Parnell, " " " No. 1588. Gr. Marshall, 8th Bty., 1/3rd London Bde., RFA. No. 1268. Gr. Cardy, " " " No. 902. Gr. Banks. 9th Bty., " " No. 1535. Gr. Wright. 1/2nd London Bde., RFA. No. 1507. Gr. Grey, " " Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now