Military Cross

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear All, and Phil,

Quite.

Additionally, as I noted above, the 1935 Jubilee Medal is spurious.

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[caulkheader]

Everyone is thinking it, someone has to say it.

Someone in the ‘friends’ family has been, shall we say, a little creative.

[Stevie]

William Abel's son must be turned 100 by now - or at least turned 90. And there was me thinking that Walt's were a fairly modern curse.

Cheers,

            Steve

[PRC]

There are 7 Medal Ribbons on display on the artistic impression of a Pioneer Captain rather than the 8 medals actually pictured. If I've matched the ribbons correctly that takes him up to the King George V Silver Jubilee, dating the picture to c1935/36. However the ribbons on the bottom row aren't to the same size of those on the top and may have been shoehorned in as a reworking of an earlier picture.

Not sure about the centre and right ribbons on the bottom row - are they a duplicate - so he may have claimed to be entitled to yet another medal.

@Chris Hiley,

Sorry to keep using you as a go between - that's always the curse of raising a query on behalf of a friend.

Is the provenance of these medals known? Have these medals remained in the family throughout or have they recently come back into the possession of a family member? While not doubting the photographic skills of your friend or yourself, it's just the way the medals are photographed in you attachment is very reminiscent of how I'd expect them to appear in an auctioners \ militaria dealers catalogue.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 7 October , 2023 by PRC
Typo

[Michelle Young]

Until @Chris Hiley actually responds to the questions, I don’t think here’s a great deal of point in carrying on with the research that members have put a great deal of time  and effort into. 

[TullochArd]

10 hours ago, PhilB said:

We really need to see the data on the BWM & VM. 

There is no evidence for a VM Phil.  The Service Record and UK MIC I posted explains.  There is an India Office MIC (at the following link) that is the authority for a single BWM (in line with many others solely serving in India) and named to Lt. H W Abel IARO.  As this medal is authorised by the India Office I read it to be dated post July 1915 when he was discharged as Pte 1/5 Hants and commissioned 2Lt IARO. The BWM was surely India service earned.

Medal card of Abel, W H Corps: Indian Army Reserve of Officers Rank: ... | The National Archives

I understand why some GWF chums are suggesting a 'Check Fire' on this post but regardless of any response (or indeed lack of) to this post it raises some interesting wider GWF topics.  I am interested to see HWA was initially classed as "Interpreter" in the RHA in August 1914 as shown on his MIC.  He was quickly transferred to 1/5 Hants and departed for India prior to any related deployment but it raises the question what language was he was to interpret with the RHA? I am also amazed and enlightened to see by 1917 we have a Corps of Military Interpreters qualified between Class 1-3 and allocated serial numbers L/(3 numbers).  Seems like a most dodgy bunch going by the following embedded Press article.  HWA was fortunate to be cut loose from them. 

Interpreter corps - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org)

 

 

Edited 7 October , 2023 by TullochArd

[PhilB]

I may have misled you, TA. By data I meant the inscription on the medals. There is a VM on the photo of the group, albeit an unofficial one! Both BWM and VM are described as marked to Capt WH Abel and it would be interesting to see how that was done. Engraved?

[TullochArd]

55 minutes ago, PhilB said:

 Engraved?

Reckon so!

[Chris Hiley]

Apologies for the delay in responding to all your comments. I've gone through them with my friend and he is very appreciative of all the time spent and research done by contributors to this thread.

Incidentally my friend is aged 84. His father William Henry Abel died in 1976. The medals have been in his possession since his father's death.

As a family historian myself (but with no expertise on WW1) I had offered to help him with his own family tree and also to try and find out more about his father's medals and in particular the mystery surrounding the MC.

I think we can see now from all the comments that there are many questions surrounding the medals - eligibility for the awards, conflicting dates, inscriptions on the medals etc, and we take on board the comments and concerns of all the contributors.

I am not sure what is the best way to proceed. My friend is happy to try and answer any specific questions about his father's service and the medals if this will help us to make progress. But obviously there are a lot of questions which he is unable to throw any light on.

What would you all recommend?

Thanks.

 

[TullochArd]

30 minutes ago, Chris Hiley said:

What would you all recommend?

In research terms I'm "Rounds Expended" Chris.  That said: 

I would like to know if the BWM, VM and IGS medals engraved in the same manner as the MC and 14 Star. 

• I would also be interested in the background to WHA being enlisted as "Interpreter" in the RHA in August 1914.  He must have had some prior language knowledge. Was he a French speaker?
• Any idea when he returned from India?

Regards and thanks

TullochArd

[PhilB]

India sounds like an odd place to send a French speaker but it is hard to see how he could have acquired an Indian language.

[Dave66]

Im not a medal collector as such, I pick a few cheap items up here and there but this thread is fascinating, my GF was awarded the MC, Gazetted, but no medal, no trio, and no MIC as he never claimed them. Whatever the outcome on this set of medals , thanks all.

Dave.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

13 minutes ago, Dave66 said:

Im not a medal collector as such, I pick a few cheap items up here and there but this thread is fascinating, my GF was awarded the MC, Gazetted, but no medal, no trio, and no MIC as he never claimed them. Whatever the outcome on this set of medals , thanks all.

Dave.

If they were never issued, then they can be claimed by the next of kin.

[Dave66]

3 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

If they were never issued, then they can be claimed by the next of kin.

I have thought about that, but instead I brought a period miniature set and framed it with his photo. By all accounts he was a workaholic surgeon…I don’t suppose he was the only one who just got back and did his bit.

Dave.

[Old Owl]

3 hours ago, Chris Hiley said:

Apologies for the delay in responding to all your comments. I've gone through them with my friend and he is very appreciative of all the time spent and research done by contributors to this thread.

Incidentally my friend is aged 84. His father William Henry Abel died in 1976. The medals have been in his possession since his father's death.

As a family historian myself (but with no expertise on WW1) I had offered to help him with his own family tree and also to try and find out more about his father's medals and in particular the mystery surrounding the MC.

I think we can see now from all the comments that there are many questions surrounding the medals - eligibility for the awards, conflicting dates, inscriptions on the medals etc, and we take on board the comments and concerns of all the contributors.

I am not sure what is the best way to proceed. My friend is happy to try and answer any specific questions about his father's service and the medals if this will help us to make progress. But obviously there are a lot of questions which he is unable to throw any light on.

What would you all recommend?

Thanks.

 

Hello Chris,

I have read this thread with great interest,

Having been a collector of medals (mainly but not entirely) to the WW1 period for over 40 years, I have come to the conclusion that the depicted medal group appears to have been made up from erased and renamed medals. Clearly Captain Abel (or some unknown person) has assembled and mounted the group for reasons unknown. Whereas this is not illegal, such practice is certainly frowned upon, particularly if the medals are then worn in public.

It seems strange that the medal ribbons are also depicted on his portrait in uniform, and thus this would tend to suggest an 'inside job'.

It may be better if you tell his son that you have been unable to confirm his entitlement to any of the medals and let him draw his own conclusions.

Not an ideal response, but really to tell him anything else would be misleading and pointless.

Purely my own thoughts on the matter,

Best, Robert

 

[Ivor Anderson]

It is not possible to tell from the scans whether the MC is an original or a copy.

This older GWF thread may be useful for the OP to compare the Abel MC with: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/236019-military-cross/

There should be a LG entry if he was at all elligible for a MC. There is a medal card and roll showing entitlement to the BWM only.

Edited 9 October , 2023 by Ivor Anderson

[Old Owl]

36 minutes ago, Ivor Anderson said:

It is not possible to tell from the scans whether the MC is an original or a copy.

This older GWF thread may be useful for the OP to compare the Abel MC with: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/236019-military-cross/

There should be a LG entry if he was at all elligible for a MC. There is a medal card and roll showing entitlement to the BWM only.

Hi Ivor,

It is irrelevant whether or not the MC is genuine or a copy--Abel clearly has no medal entitlement other than the BWM and thus the medal group shown falls within the 'Walter Mitty' category of made up groups.

Sadly we will never know the reasons why this group was assembled, or by whom, or if it was ever worn, but as the research shows it is completely fictitious regardless of whether or not the medals are genuine or copies. The Star is genuine and has clearly been erased, with Captain Abel's name engraved below the remains of what is surely an o/r service number.

Best, Robert

[PhilB]

I think that about sums it up. I would just add that the BWM, although entitled, may not be his original award. We still haven’t seen the inscription.

[Ivor Anderson]

7 hours ago, Old Owl said:

It is irrelevant whether or not the MC is genuine or a copy

True as regards his entitlement, but it would be interesting to know whether it is a tailor's copy or an original MC that has later been engraved.

The link holes of both the cross & suspension bar are unclear in the scan.

Edited 9 October , 2023 by Ivor Anderson

[Old Owl]

1 hour ago, Ivor Anderson said:

True as regards his entitlement, but it would be interesting to know whether it is a tailor's copy or an original MC that has later been engraved.

The link holes of both the cross & suspension bar are unclear in the scan.

As you say the pictures are not that clear, but unless the OP is prepared to produce some sharp/clear images of the suspension holes and loop, and indeed other areas of the cross, then I would err on the side of it being a copy, albeit a fairly good one.

I still think that it is rather irrelevant, because even if it is a genuine MC, it has been defaced with a fraudulent inscription, thus making it virtually worthless.

[Stevie]

I would hope that the descendants of Captain Abel do not intend keep these medals, as they will only serve as a reminder of their ancestor's entirely false claims of bravery in battle. Something absolutely abhorrent to military veterans is to see someone wearing medals to which they are not entitled.

Cheers,

           Steve

Edited 9 October , 2023 by Stevie
Typo's

[PRC]

@Chris Hiley

If it's agreeable to your friend it would be good to try and work out who the 1914 Star was originally issued to. Someone may be searching for a "lost" family medal - if not now then at some point in the future. At least if it's fate is documented on the internet that will stop someone searching needlessly.

Hopefully if you are able to see and touch the medal it may be possible for you to work out what has been erased. Otherwise good quality closeups may help the brains trust that is the GWF to swing into action

Cheers,
Peter

[Chris Hiley]

I'll attempt to reply to some of the questions raised by members over the next few days....

Interpreter

W H Abel travelled to France on 17 July 1914 and  joined the French Foreign Legion when war broke out. Although his knowledge of French was fairly basic, he was listed as an Interpreter with the rank of Warrant Officer and attached to Intelligence.

He returned to the UK and was attached to 1/5th Hampshire Regiment on 20th August 1914. The regiment was ordered overseas and his ship left Southampton on 3rd September, arriving in Bombay on 8th October.

 

[Keith_history_buff]

Chris,
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Hats off to you for doing this on behalf of your friend. The source-based evidence does suggest the medals were sourced from a jewellers, rather than formally issued and cross-referencing back to the War Office.

It looks like his MIC came into being during 1918, and was one of thousands documenting submissions that had not been made via a battalion adjutant or similar. This has a reference of WS/5/2290. Similar numbers with associated dates are:
WS/5/1759 6.3.18
WS/5/1921 11.4.18
WS/5/2142 26.6.18
          2290
WS/5/2591 13.3.19
Source of numbers: 1914 decision book, the content of which is understood to appear in the next Howard Williamson publication.

Unfortunately, the outcome is documented, but not the business case in support of the medal request

'Campaign BEF 1914
Disembarkation Date: 6.8.14 Ineligible Auth WS//5/2290 minute 10'

Interpreters of the French Army were illegible to receive the 1914 Star. I would have expected there to have been mention of this on the MIC, with a supporting document reference that relates to this topic, and which appears on other MICs. The reference I would expect to see would be 0144/5504 or the similar 68/121/389.

A few years later, the processing of his medal claim, albeit now reduced to that of a BWM for service in India, is documented by reference WS/5/3536. His entry in the roll is signed and dated 26 January 1923.

 

[Keith_history_buff]

There is a very interesting comment that has been typed in the bottom right of his page of the medal roll entry. Somehow or another, perhaps a telegram to the Exeter (C) Infantry Record Office to confirm service in the Royal Hampshire Regiment, his record of service, as above, has been verified.