Interpreter corps

[lexxie]

Hi

Has anyone come across a unit called the Interpreters Corps?.

It seems he was a 2nd Lieut Interpreters Corps & then became a Lieut in the Machine Gun Corps

His name was Charles Battersby Hill

Can anyone help with this?

Thanks

[green_acorn]

Are you sure it is the Interpreter Corps or was he an officer/interpreter in the Intelligence Corps?

[bushfighter]

Words

The Indian Army had a Corps of Guides and Interpreters. It is on the CWGC list of Great War units that have at least one commemoration.

In previous threads Members have commented on gravestones commemorating Guides and Interpreters in Egypt and Gallipoli.

Harry

[green_acorn]

Yes Harry, Words. I am aware that the Indian Army had a Corps of Guides and Interpreters, indeed they had the first proper Intelligence Corps and I am aware that the MEF and EEF employed both interpeters and guides in accordance with the principles outlined in the 1904 WO Instruction on Field Intelligence.

However on the Western Front I do not believe that the BEF employed an "Intepreter Corps" when the "Intelligence Corps" which deployed in August 1914 were all linguists/interpreters. Also those interpeters and guides who were employed by the MEF and EEF were invariably locally engaged (Arabs, Greeks, Egyptians and so on) and could not be given a commission like 2LT Hill had.

Finally TNA often makes the error of interpeting the abbreviation int as "Interpreter Corps" and I would stand by my comment that he was probably an Intelligence Corps officer.

Cheers,

Hendo

[centurion]

The following question was asked in the House of Commons in June 1918 (Hansard)

Mr. O'GRADY

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the grievances of Army interpreters (Interpreter Corps) acting in prisoners of war camps; whether he is aware that these officers, although commissioned as lieutenants, have to carry out duties such as would be performed by military officers, and yet cannot get higher rank than that of lieutenant; if he is aware that such officers (Interpreter Corps) receive no ration or field allowances; and, having regard to these disabilities, will the War Office investigate the matter, with a view to remedying the disabilities stated?

Mr. FORSTER

These officers receive special rates of pay, and it is not considered that they have any legitimate ground of complaint.

So it would seem that there was an Interpreter Corps.

Further to this a 1918 NYT report announced the formation of a US Army Interpreter Corps to be used in the event of large numbers of German prisoners being shipped to the USA. I have also seen references to both an Australian and Canadian Intrepreter Corps. The role seeems primarily to deal with PoWs

[green_acorn]

Centurion,

Thank you, that is interesting, in the example you give I gather you are talking about Home Forces POW Camps and not with the BEF in France which is where I had assumed 2LT Hill was.

Is the bracketed Interpreter Corps your emphasis or from the Hansard?

Can't say I am too familiar with the US example, but again many assume the Sphinx badge their MI Corps came up with was for an Interpreter Corps from the French example.

Sorry never heard of an Australian Interpreter Corps and I know one was not established. Noting of course that there was no Intelligence Corps either, though quite a few served in intelligence and regarded themselves as serving in an "Intelligence Corps". As for interpreters at the Australian PW/Internment Camps, interpreters, but not a Corps of them.

Cheers,

Hendo

[centurion]

Centurion,

Thank you, that is interesting, in the example you give I gather you are talking about Home Forces POW Camps and not with the BEF in France which is where I had assumed 2LT Hill was. I'm not talking about PoW camps merely noting that there seems to have been a interpreter corps working in some PoW camps

Is the bracketed Interpreter Corps your emphasis or from the Hansard? Hansard

Can't say I am too familiar with the US example, but again many assume the Sphinx badge their MI Corps came up with was for an Intepreter Corps from the French example. Interpreter

Sorry never heard of an Australian Intepreter Corps and I know one was not established. Noting of course that there was no Intelligence Corps either, though quite a few served in intelligence and regarded themselves as serving in an "Intelligence Corps". As for interpeters at the Australian PW/Internment Camps, intepreters, but not a Corps of them. The reference I found was to some one wearing their father's old Interpreter Corps badge to a memorial service

Cheers,

Hendo

[centurion]

Some further information

From Ancestry a newspaper announcement

"22nd County of London Batt, The London Reg (The Queens) Second Lieutenant Archimedes William George Joscelyn Connor from the Corps of Interpreters to be Lieutenant (temporary)"

There must be an entry in the Gazette

A description of the Corps by an American reporter

"Serving as a connecting-link between the British and the French and Belgian armies is a Corps of Interpreters known as the liaison. As there are well over two million English-men in France, a very small percentage of whom have any knowledge of French, the liaison enjoys no sinecure. To assist in the billeting of British battalions in French villages, to conduct negotiations with the canny countryfolk for food and fodder, to mollify angry housewives whose menages have been upset by boisterous Tommies .billeted upon them, to translate messages of every description, to interrogate peasants suspected of espionage — these are only a few of the duties which the liaison officers are called upon to perform. The Corps is recruited from Englishmen who have been engaged in business in Paris, habitués of the Riviera, students of the Latin Quarter, French hairdressers, head waiters, and ladies' tailors who have learned English "as she is spoke" in London's West End. The officers of the liaison can be readily distinguished by their caps, which resemble those worn by railroad brakemen, and by the gilt sphinx on the collars of their drab uniforms. This emblem was chosen by Napoleon as a badge for the corps of interpreters he organized during his Egyptian campaign, but the British unkindly assert it was selected for the liaison officers because nobody can understand them."

Note the Sphinx. The badge of the US Army Interpreters Corps was the letters INT in laurel leaves, , Ther were minor variatios as some badges were made in France and others in the USA

U.S. Army Military Intelligence History:A Sourcebook Edited by James P. Finley (downloadable) Describes the formation of the US corps

"In July 1917, a Corps of Interpreters was created in the National Army which would fall

under the supervision of the Chief of Staff with a close affiliation to the Military Intelligence Section.

Exams were conducted around the country with the ranks of the corps filling up with 17 captains, 41 first

lieutenants and 72 sergeants. It sent men to all the major field headquarters and to the MIS."

It was not all rear echelon stuff as the career of the American war poet John Allan Wyeth, Jr shows

"After graduating Wyeth went on to earn an M.A. from Princeton in 1917. Wyeth enlisted later that year in the army to fight in World War I. His fluent knowledge of French led him to an assignment in the Corps of Interpreters with the 33rd division. By May 1918 he was in France and soon involved in the late battles on the Somme and Verdun."

[green_acorn]

Centurion,

Thank you, you learn something every day.

Cheers,

Hendo

[Guest j.mblack]

As a new boy I can add belatedly that my father left a note claiming he was an interpreter with the Rhine Army during his service with the Northumberland Fusiliers (enlisted 4 Dec 1914 and discharged as a Corporal 4 December 1919) . His diary entry says he was" 29 Div DA" which on advice from the Regimental Museum I take to mean "Deputy Assistant Adjutant General to the 29th Division (Office of?)". Is this credible? He certainly had a good knowledge of German and I remember hearing that he was alleged to have become overfamiliar with some of the prisoners! Peter Hart in his "Somme" says the 27th to 29th would be Divisions scraped up from units on Imperial garrison service, which is the case with the 2/Northumberland which was in the Middle-east from10 May 1916 to 21June 1918 though 1/Northumberland stayed on the Western front throughout.

[27thBN]

Interesting i have 14 star and bar trio to a Pte in the 1/Hampshires that had written specially enlisted as an interpreter on his MIC but stayed a Pte although had a SWB issued later in the war...

Tony

[Terry_Reeves]

The original of his Medal Index Card shows Interpreter Corps- as a 2 Lt

TR

[corisande]

I am at the moment trying to compile data on Major Frederick Hugo his MIC is on this link

It says Interpreter & Intelligence Corps if I read it correctly. It is a bit confused by the fact that he may or may not have been in Indian Army at the time, the the MIC seems to indicate that he was in France, and was a Major

[nigelfe]

I've been undr the impression that speaking good French was quite common among British officers of the period.

Incidentally 29 Div landed at Gallipoli on 25 Apr 1915.

[Languages &the First World War]

Interesting conundrum. See https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1916/oct/17/interpreters-with-british-army#S5CV0086P0_19161017_HOC_175 Hansard 17 October 1916 for the official position on this (no Interpreters' Corps), but by 1919 the position had changed. Maximilian Mugge spent ages trying to get accepted into what he calls 'the Interpreters' Corps or the Intelligence Corps', and was eventually rejected (1916). The 'other qualification required' in Forster's speech can be found in the testimony of François Jaffrennou in http://callac.joseph.lohou.fr/jaffrenou_taldir-sphinx.html - tact and impartiality. The French Corps of Interpreters, founded by Napoleon, was 2-3,000 strong during the war, and many were 'embedded' with British units, which also had their own semi-official interpreters drawn from those among the ranks or from junior officers who could speak French (see 'A Personal Memoir' by R H Mottram, around pp86-90, called in to 'sort out this mess'). Most British officers had a smattering of tourist French and a memory of French lessons in school, which generally was of limited application.

[Keith_history_buff]

I got the impression that there was a well established route whereby linguist exams could be taken by officers. It seemed that as of peacetime, both intelligence staff and interpreters were associated with the 10th Battalion, Royal Fusiliers. It would appear that some of these men were appointed as "Lieutenant Interpreter" in some scenarios.

The French Army had its own set of officer ranks for the linguist specialisation. Seeing this reminded me of the manner in which there are Navy ratings with equivalents in different branches (Leading Stoker, Leading Seaman, Leading Mechanic etc.) From what I have seen, official interpreters in the British Army all seemed to be officers. There does seem to have been some manner of engaging locals in Egypt to work as interpreters, from what I recall seeing of the medal index cards. A lot of the surnames of these men were noticeably Armenian.

 

Certainly, as far as the French and Belgian armies were concerned, they provided their own interpreters to the British. Paul Maze is one of the best known who has been mentioned on here before.Whilst the interpreter emblem of the French was the olive leaf, perhaps implying their use in parleys and intelligence, for English speakers a sphinx badge was worn, as a reference to Napoleon and the interpreters in the Egyptian campaign.

With the army on a war footing, the need for a body of linguists does seem to have resulted in the creation of an Interpreters Corps at an as-yet unknown date. Was this like a French <<Régiment de marche>> insofar as it was a temporary body "for the duration" and would be disbanded upon cessation of hostilities?  

[Keith_history_buff]

There are 1,893 MICs with the word "interpreter" in Discovery

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r/1?_aq=Interpreter&_cr=WO 372&_dss=range&_ps=60&_ro=any&_srt=5&_st=adv

[ilkley remembers]

In Ilkley there is a list of men and women who served in WW1 which shows 11 people from the town who served in the Interpreter Corps. Some of the names are officers and several are other ranks. I have managed to identify a couple of them one of whom served in the Royal Navy whilst another with the West Riding Field Artillery whose partial service record survives, although, sadly there was no mention of him being an interpreter. I did have try to find out about any unit known as the Interpreter Corps but apart from a few mentions remarkably little could be found. I did note that in October 1914 there were a number of reports of high casualty rates amongst what was described as the Interpreter Corps on account of their wearing distinctive blue uniforms. After some thought I decided that it was likely that this referred to French Officers serving in a liaison role with British units. Elsewhere I came across references to classes of interpreter and decided that there must have been some form of examination for which grades of 1st or 2nd class could be awarded.

[Keith_history_buff]

Seven soldiers with "interpreter" in the addtional details of their CWGC notes.
https://www.cwgc.org/find/find-war-dead/results?war=1&additional=Interpreter&tab=wardead&fq_servedinliteral=Army

[Keith_history_buff]

There is an officers' Medal Roll for the "Interpreter and Intelligence Corps". The reference is WO 329/2512.

The pertinent images are from 229 to 279 inclusive of the 322. This is digitised, and available via Ancestry.
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=5119

[Languages &the First World War]

15 hours ago, ilkley remembers said:

In Ilkley there is a list of men and women who served in WW1 which shows 11 people from the town who served in the Interpreter Corps. Some of the names are officers and several are other ranks. I have managed to identify a couple of them one of whom served in the Royal Navy whilst another with the West Riding Field Artillery whose partial service record survives, although, sadly there was no mention of him being an interpreter. I did have try to find out about any unit known as the Interpreter Corps but apart from a few mentions remarkably little could be found. I did note that in October 1914 there were a number of reports of high casualty rates amongst what was described as the Interpreter Corps on account of their wearing distinctive blue uniforms. After some thought I decided that it was likely that this referred to French Officers serving in a liaison role with British units. Elsewhere I came across references to classes of interpreter and decided that there must have been some form of examination for which grades of 1st or 2nd class could be awarded.

 

This from Ian Hay's Carrying On (1917): ‘a neat drab uniform with light-blue facings – the regimental interpreter’. This is describing a French man previously working in London, who enlisted in the army. The Navy and Army Magazine 9 January 1915 describes an interpreter's uniform thus: 'Civilians on the battlefield – Civilian interpreters employed with the Expeditionary Forces are given quasi-military rank, and are supplied with arms and uniform. Most of them are also mounted, as they have to do a lot of riding about the country. The uniform consists of a khaki jacket and breeches, and a French kepi for the head-dress, and their pay and allowances are those of a second lieutenant.' So the light-blue facings may have come in after 1916. Also this: ‘French interpreters in khaki, with the golden palmleaf tabs and khaki-covered kepis’ from Williams, G V, With our army in Flanders, 1915. French interpreters also had collar-badges of the Sphinx's face (Joffrennau's testimony is headed Chez les Sphynx), which were taken over as sleve-badges by British interpreters. There seems to emerge a sense by which French interpreters took on a visual reference to the uniform of British officers, while the 'light-blue facings' that Hay describes would be a reference in a British uniform to the predominant colour in French uniforms. 

[ilkley remembers]

24 minutes ago, Languages &the First World War said:

 

This from Ian Hay's Carrying On (1917): ‘a neat drab uniform with light-blue facings – the regimental interpreter’. This is describing a French man previously working in London, who enlisted in the army. The Navy and Army Magazine 9 January 1915 describes an interpreter's uniform thus: 'Civilians on the battlefield – Civilian interpreters employed with the Expeditionary Forces are given quasi-military rank, and are supplied with arms and uniform. Most of them are also mounted, as they have to do a lot of riding about the country. The uniform consists of a khaki jacket and breeches, and a French kepi for the head-dress, and their pay and allowances are those of a second lieutenant.' So the light-blue facings may have come in after 1916. Also this: ‘French interpreters in khaki, with the golden palmleaf tabs and khaki-covered kepis’ from Williams, G V, With our army in Flanders, 1915. French interpreters also had collar-badges of the Sphinx's face (Joffrennau's testimony is headed Chez les Sphynx), which were taken over as sleve-badges by British interpreters. There seems to emerge a sense by which French interpreters took on a visual reference to the uniform of British officers, while the 'light-blue facings' that Hay describes would be a reference in a British uniform to the predominant colour in French uniforms. 

Interesting; looks like my assumption that the reports related to French officers was incorrect. A statistic of a 60% casualties for the Corps was given which seems rather high but perhaps given the fact that they were mounted and appear to have little military experience or nous suggests that they made themselves more obvious targets

[Languages &the First World War]

Jaffrennou reckons casualty rates were proportionately as high as amongst the artillery. Probably because they were moving about between units near the front lines and were able to spend less time under cover.

[Keith_history_buff]

This is deviating somewhat from the original post, but makes for an interesting read.
 

17 hours ago, ilkley remembers said:

 I did note that in October 1914 there were a number of reports of high casualty rates amongst what was described as the Interpreter Corps on account of their wearing distinctive blue uniforms. After some thought I decided that it was likely that this referred to French Officers serving in a liaison role with British units. 

 

The following is of pertinence:

On 14/10/2018 at 23:40, GrenPen said:

Of interest on the Jacques Vaché website is the following:
 

While the French army uniform after April 1915 was typically a light grey-blue (bleu horizon), a few branches wore khaki; most notably the colonial troops, but also the interpreters attached to the British and American armies.

 

 

On 15/10/2018 at 11:26, FROGSMILE said:

 

Thank you.  It makes complete sense that French interpreters serving with English speaking formations would wear khaki.  In ‘horizon bleu’ they would have been marked out and picked off by the highly skilled German snipers.

 

The Jacques Vaché website has some images of him in a British officers style uniform, which would have made him less conspicuous.

 

These come from the following forum post:

 

A feel of the experiences of a Frenchman in the 19e Escadron du Train des Équipages Militaires of the Corps des Interprètes de l'Armée française can be gleaned from the excellent Jacques Vache website, and at some point I am going to have to get a copy of Paul Maze's memoir of his interpreter experiences in "A Frenchman in khaki".

 

 

 

[Keith_history_buff]

I have only been able to find the following scant detail in relation to the "Interpreter and Intelligence Corps" of the British Army. There are no detailed references to POW debriefs, and the sensitive issue of prisoner interrogation which has been carried out by all nations since time immemorial.

 

Quote

On the outbreak of war, the Intelligence Department at the War Office identified a number of Army officers, Metropolitan Police officers and other civilians who would be called up at the outbreak of hostilities. Following the expiry of the British ultimatum to the Germans on 5th August 1914 some fifty or so individuals received a telegram inviting them to join the newly formed Intelligence Corps. The Corps was formed under its first Commandant, Major [ Thomas George Jameson ] Torrie, 17th Light Cavalry, Indian Army, and consisted of a Headquarters, Dismounted and Mounted Sections, a Motorcycle Section and a Security Duties Section. Initially there were no soldiers except officers' batmen who were enlisted in 10th (Service) Battalion, Royal Fusiliers. 

In due course police officers and other with suitable civilian qualifications were employed as Intelligence Police (either transferring to the 10th Fusiliers or retaining their own cap badges). On 12 August 1914 the embryo Corps embarked on the Olympia at Southampton for France with the British Expedition[ary] Force.

Former Metropolitan Police officers operated as field security police identifying enemy agents, be they French, Belgian or German nationals....

Signals Intelligence was a new military art.... The interception of German wireless and telephone traffic was carried out by the Signals Service of the Royal Engineers. Intelligence Corps personnel were employed within the decoding organisations. This element was assisted from 1917 by members of the Women's Army Auxiliary Corps - known as the Hush-WAACs. 

Working under the guidance of GHQ staff and what later became SIS, Corps personnel successfully ran a number of agents behind enemy lines.... The Corps also developed prisoner of war and refugee debriefing techniques, and became involved in psychological operations. 

At the conclusion of the war most of the Intelligence Corps was disbanded.

 

Source:
http://www.militaryintelligencemuseum.org/historical-archive/archive-sections/?archiveID=1