Military Cross

[PRC]

1 hour ago, Chris Hiley said:

W H Abel travelled to France on 17 July 1914 and  joined the French Foreign Legion when war broke out.

The French Army started to mobilise on the 1st August 1914 and formally joined the Great War on the 3rd August when Germany declared war on France. So I suspect his services with the French Foreign Legion were short and sweet, and may have mainly consisted of hope on his part as the Legion probably already had a smattering of serving men and officers who were fluent in both English and French.

I have no idea what the qualification period was for French service medals, but I suspect one would be present if his service was in wartime. While the allies would follow a principle of no poaching of each others nationals as recruits, I'm not sure how quickly that kicked after Britain joined the war on the 4th August 1914. Certainly later in the war as countries joined the allied side this would see a transfer of serving men to the army of their birth country - or in the case of Russians living in the allied countries after their country signed a separate peace, made them eligible to serve in the forces of their host nation.

1 hour ago, Chris Hiley said:

Interpreter with the rank of Warrant Officer and attached to Intelligence.

Any mention of working for Intelligence always sets the alarm bells off

1 hour ago, Chris Hiley said:

He returned to the UK and was attached to 1/5th Hampshire Regiment on 20th August 1914.

He enlisted in the 5th Battalion Hampshire Regiment, committing himself to 4 years service, (with an additional 12 months if Britain was still at war) and signed the additional commitment to defend the Empire. Territorial Force soldiers normally signed up to defend the home islands. Those individuals who made the additional commitment were moved into a First Line 5th Battalion, (the 1/5th), while those who wanted to stay home service only went to a Second Line 5th Battalion, (the 2/5th).

The Imperial Service commitment was re-written by the end of August \ early September 1914 to include all foreign service but by then Territorial Force units like the 1/5th Hampshire had already been identified who could go out to take over responsibility for garrisoning the Empire to free up Regular Army units for service in France & Flanders.

It is unlikely that as a Warrant Officer in the French Army he would have been transferred across to be a Private in the British Army - but with millions of individuals involved it is possible, .......just highly unlikely.

Cheers,
Peter

[Keith_history_buff]

He appears at Dunstable in 1911 as a Grocer's Assistant, residing on premises.
 

  

On 08/10/2023 at 20:04, TullochArd said:

• Any idea when he returned from India?

Of interest whilst in India

8 Mar 1918 joins the gymkhana Lodge in Bombay

Jan 1923 is employed at Office of Inspector of Factories, Lahore, this is the 'address to which decorations should be sent.'

23 Dec 1924 gets married in Calcutta

13 Oct 1927 embarks S.S. Ranchi, a P&O vessel, departing London with his wife, destination Bombay. His occupation is Chief Factory Inspector.

[Keith_history_buff]

Credit where it is due, he does seem to have progressed from humble beginnings as a grocer's assistant to becoming a factory inspector. 

Perhaps it was deemed "appropriate" for self-made men to have an accompanying background as a "distinguished officer". I can imagine there were challenges with regard to keeping up social standing, and that being an arriviste, he would have needed to compensate for coming from a humble background. I am not justifying what has gone on, but trying to understand the rationale.

[Old Owl]

1 hour ago, Keith_history_buff said:

Credit where it is due, he does seem to have progressed from humble beginnings as a grocer's assistant to becoming a factory inspector. 

Perhaps it was deemed "appropriate" for self-made men to have an accompanying background as a "distinguished officer". I can imagine there were challenges with regard to keeping up social standing, and that being an arriviste, he would have needed to compensate for coming from a humble background. I am not justifying what has gone on, but trying to understand the rationale.

All very interesting and well done for uncovering his story.

Sadly however, whatever his reasons were for upgrading his military image, none will show him as anything but dishonest, particularly in the eyes of others who served in the military.

[TullochArd]

The French CdeG was only created 2 April 1915 by which point WHA is in India. It is hard to see where this French decoration would fit into his career before 20th August 1914. The medal in his group represents a mention in dispatches with the bronze palm indicating the highest mention which is at army level.  Like the M.C. it carries the crucial caveat of gallantry/heroism in combat with the enemy. 

I'm with Old Owl on this one ..... "It may be better if you tell his son that you have been unable to confirm his entitlement to any of the medals (I would add - less the BWM) and let him draw his own conclusions."  

Edited 11 October , 2023 by TullochArd

[Keith_history_buff]

I have not seen any evidence to support the assertion that he received an IGSM with "Afghanistan NWF 1919" clasp. I'm not sure when the next set of War Services Supplements to The Army List would have been published, which would document those officers who served in the Third Anglo-Afghan War, and who have crossed swords against their name to indicate prior war service.

[Chris Hiley]

I've received this from my friend:

I have looked at the medals under a magnifier and this what I have found.

MC – definitely engraved (rather than stamped) in a different font and size. You have an image of this.

1914 Star – CAPT. W. H. ABEL. Engraved on the reverse. There are marks of a previous number which has been partially erased, file marks can be seen.

British War Medal - CAPT. W. H. ABEL. Stamped, but with poor quality stamps.

Victory Medal - CAPT. W. H. ABEL. Again very poorly stamped. There are markings on the rim which could indicate that it had a previous soldiers’ details on it.

IGS - CAPT. W. H ABEL. (Note. The full stop after H is missing). It appears that that there were previous stamped markings on rim which have been poorly skimmed off.

All the stamped medals are in different fonts and depths. I am now convinced that these are replacements for reasons we will never know. Also we cannot confirm or deny that they were awarded through lack of records. 

In the document ‘Indian Government Officers (Retired) Association', he is listed as being retired in 1947. My recollection is that he finally returned to the UK a year or two after this date with his final job in Pakistan with Buckwells and co. importers of John Deer and Caterpillar machinery as a director.

[Old Owl]

2 hours ago, Chris Hiley said:

I've received this from my friend:

I have looked at the medals under a magnifier and this what I have found.

MC – definitely engraved (rather than stamped) in a different font and size. You have an image of this.

1914 Star – CAPT. W. H. ABEL. Engraved on the reverse. There are marks of a previous number which has been partially erased, file marks can be seen.

British War Medal - CAPT. W. H. ABEL. Stamped, but with poor quality stamps.

Victory Medal - CAPT. W. H. ABEL. Again very poorly stamped. There are markings on the rim which could indicate that it had a previous soldiers’ details on it.

IGS - CAPT. W. H ABEL. (Note. The full stop after H is missing). It appears that that there were previous stamped markings on rim which have been poorly skimmed off.

All the stamped medals are in different fonts and depths. I am now convinced that these are replacements for reasons we will never know. Also we cannot confirm or deny that they were awarded through lack of records. 

In the document ‘Indian Government Officers (Retired) Association', he is listed as being retired in 1947. My recollection is that he finally returned to the UK a year or two after this date with his final job in Pakistan with Buckwells and co. importers of John Deer and Caterpillar machinery as a director.

I stand by all my previous comments relating to this grouping of medals.

Incidentally, the MC was never issued named and any subsequent naming was invariably engraved--in this case however this has little relevance for obvious reasons.

Robert

[Stevie]

22 hours ago, Keith_history_buff said:

Credit where it is due, he does seem to have progressed from humble beginnings as a grocer's assistant to becoming a factory inspector. 

Perhaps it was deemed "appropriate" for self-made men to have an accompanying background as a "distinguished officer". I can imagine there were challenges with regard to keeping up social standing, and that being an arriviste, he would have needed to compensate for coming from a humble background. I am not justifying what has gone on, but trying to understand the rationale.

There can be no excuse for what was done by this man. To pose as someone who has put his life on the line in battle is absolutely disgusting. I've had it said to me by other veterans who have no medals to show for their service, that they felt naked at the cenotaph when surrounded by others wearing medals - and that was why they purchased 'bling' to wear. The general public don't know the difference between those and 'earned' medals. But in my eyes, those that don't have medals - simply because their service never required them to put their life on the line - are the lucky one's. No bad memories to keep them awake at night, and no physical scars to see.  I sell poppies for the RBL every year, and I have seen the Walt's with their chests of bought medals, and on one occasion a member of the public commented to me that the seller who I had just relieved, had loads of medals compered to my just one. My simple reply was: 'Yes, but I didn't buy mine, it was earned'. 

I'm sorry, but for myself there is absolutely no excuse for what this man did. If he wanted medals, he should have volunteered for active service.

Cheers,

           Steve

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Steve,

No need to be sorry!

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[caulkheader]

I think this thread has pretty well run its course.