The 13th (Wirral) Bn Cheshire Regiment - The Wirral Pals

[abbrover]

Morning Jamie

Whilst SD is a very good tool to use for research, there are quite a few mistakes in it. However - that said and done - and given his connection's with Ellesmere Port, it is perfectly feasible that he traveled back to Ellesmere Port to enlist there. The worst thing a researcher can do is "assume" something about somebody they are researching, and I have broken this - one of my golden rules - and "assumed" that because he was living in Wallasey, that he enlisted there. If this had been correct, Willie Shore would have been definitely posted to No.1 Company, which consisted of mostly Wallasey men, but he was posted to No.3 Company, and I apologies for this assumption, so SD could well be right.

Quite a few years ago I met a bloke who came on a few of my battlefield tours who was related to Samuel Colclough, and he had the same photo as what you have (but not colourized). His name is Alan Gregson, who now lives in Stoak, near Ellesmere Port (hence me asking if your name was Alan).

Willie Shore is commemorated on the old Ellesmere Port war memorial by the old church on the side of the M53, so may well be commemorated on the "newer" Ellesmere Port war memorial by the library.

I've attached a couple more photos you may find interesting to do with Willie.......

Regards

Pete

 

[Orpheus]

Hi Pete,

Thank you for showing the photo's especially the ones taken at Codford Camp. Can you identify any of the soldiers in these images?

Many thanks,

Nick.

[abbrover]

Morning Nick

Yes, I have been able to identify quite a few of the Wirral Pals from the photos I have.

Pete

[abbrover]

One of the more weird but wonderful stories I have about my research into the 13th (Wirral) Bn Cheshire Regiment is that a few years ago I was manning my Great War exhibition at Birkenhead Park Visitors Centre with my branch of the Western Front Association (I am Chairman of this branch), where I got talking to a couple. The lady of the couple produced a number of photographic postcards/letters, some of which were of the Liverpool Pals. Amongst them was one photograph of a soldier from the Cheshire Regiment, standing outside of a tent. His face looked familiar, so I asked the lady if I could re-photograph the image, which she very kindly let me do so. Subsequently, I was able to positively identify the soldier by comparing it with other named photos I have, and he was identified as W418 Lance Corporal William George Hughes, No.2 Company 13th Bn Cheshire Regiment, who was killed in action on Vimy Ridge on 13th May 1916.

Sometime before the exhibition, I had been having a chat with a good friend of mine (he's a member of this site, so I will just call him Tony), and he was telling me that his relative was in the 13th Cheshires, and that he was W/418 LCpl William George Hughes, but that he did not have his medals or any photographs of him. Tony regularly visits the Arras Memorial, to visit William George Hughes' name, and goes up onto the Vimy Ridge Memorial Park to visit the site where his relative was killed in action (the fields opposite the car park next to the Vimy Ridge Memorial, to pay his respects. I co-run a Military & Family Genealogy research business with my business partner, in which we specialize in the research of Great War servicemen, and Tony asked us to research WILLIAM George Hughes.

At the exhibition, the lady in question with the postcards had signed up for a research job, and therefore had given me her contact details. When the exhibition was over, I contacted Tony, and told him that I can possibly get an original photograph of his relative! He was blown away! I contacted the lady, and explained what had gone on, and she promptly told me that if my friend contacted her, he could have the postcard. Tony is now the proud owner of a genuine photograph of his relative. 

[KIRKY]

5 hours ago, abbrover said:

One of the more weird but wonderful stories I have about my research into the 13th (Wirral) Bn Cheshire Regiment is that a few years ago I was manning my Great War exhibition at Birkenhead Park Visitors Centre with my branch of the Western Front Association (I am Chairman of this branch), where I got talking to a couple. The lady of the couple produced a number of photographic postcards/letters, some of which were of the Liverpool Pals. Amongst them was one photograph of a soldier from the Cheshire Regiment, standing outside of a tent. His face looked familiar, so I asked the lady if I could re-photograph the image, which she very kindly let me do so. Subsequently, I was able to positively identify the soldier by comparing it with other named photos I have, and he was identified as W418 Lance Corporal William George Hughes, No.2 Company 13th Bn Cheshire Regiment, who was killed in action on Vimy Ridge on 13th May 1916.

Sometime before the exhibition, I had been having a chat with a good friend of mine (he's a member of this site, so I will just call him Tony), and he was telling me that his relative was in the 13th Cheshires, and that he was W/418 LCpl William George Hughes, but that he did not have his medals or any photographs of him. Tony regularly visits the Arras Memorial, to visit William George Hughes' name, and goes up onto the Vimy Ridge Memorial Park to visit the site where his relative was killed in action (the fields opposite the car park next to the Vimy Ridge Memorial, to pay his respects. I co-run a Military & Family Genealogy research business with my business partner, in which we specialize in the research of Great War servicemen, and Tony asked us to research WILLIAM George Hughes.

At the exhibition, the lady in question with the postcards had signed up for a research job, and therefore had given me her contact details. When the exhibition was over, I contacted Tony, and told him that I can possibly get an original photograph of his relative! He was blown away! I contacted the lady, and explained what had gone on, and she promptly told me that if my friend contacted her, he could have the postcard. Tony is now the proud owner of a genuine photograph of his relative. 

Peter has done a fantastic job for me regarding my Gt Uncle Hughes, it was so moving to find out all about his war experience and visit the area he was killed in, so moving , and not possible without Peters help.

We adopted a Cheshires unknown soldiers grave at Vimy and laid a poppy there hoping it was his grave as he is an unfound soldier on the main Arras memorial.

Hi medals disappeared into the family somewhere so I made the attached frame to remember him, his  photo thanks to Peter.

tony

 

[Cheshire22]

On 08/10/2023 at 08:17, abbrover said:

Morning Jamie

Whilst SD is a very good tool to use for research, there are quite a few mistakes in it. However - that said and done - and given his connection's with Ellesmere Port, it is perfectly feasible that he traveled back to Ellesmere Port to enlist there. The worst thing a researcher can do is "assume" something about somebody they are researching, and I have broken this - one of my golden rules - and "assumed" that because he was living in Wallasey, that he enlisted there. If this had been correct, Willie Shore would have been definitely posted to No.1 Company, which consisted of mostly Wallasey men, but he was posted to No.3 Company, and I apologies for this assumption, so SD could well be right.

Quite a few years ago I met a bloke who came on a few of my battlefield tours who was related to Samuel Colclough, and he had the same photo as what you have (but not colourized). His name is Alan Gregson, who now lives in Stoak, near Ellesmere Port (hence me asking if your name was Alan).

Willie Shore is commemorated on the old Ellesmere Port war memorial by the old church on the side of the M53, so may well be commemorated on the "newer" Ellesmere Port war memorial by the library.

I've attached a couple more photos you may find interesting to do with Willie.......

Regards

Pete

 

Peter, 

thank you I will now try and out the relationship between my family William, Thomas Shore and Samuel Colclough 

jamie

[abbrover]

14 hours ago, Cheshire22 said:

Peter, 

thank you I will now try and out the relationship between my family William, Thomas Shore and Samuel Colclough 

jamie

If memory serves me correctly, I think Alan Gregson told me that William Shore were best mates? - But this was a long time ago, so don't quote me on that.

Pete

[Cheshire22]

10 hours ago, abbrover said:

If memory serves me correctly, I think Alan Gregson told me that William Shore were best mates? - But this was a long time ago, so don't quote me on that.

Pete

In the photo of William Shore / Samuel Colclough do you know who is the other soldier is 

also do you have a photo of the real William Shore 

 

[BillyH]

The Ellesmere Port War Memorial Project has a photograph of a William Shore (see link below).  He doesn't look anything like the photo posted here previously, but I suppose there could have been two William Shore's in Ellesmere Port?

It would be interesting to know which off them is the real William Shore. I don't have access to the British newspaper archive but the William Shore who was killed on 7.7.1916 may have had his photo published in the Ellesmere Port Pioneer?

http://www.roydenhistory.co.uk/eportwarmemorial/photos/photos.htm

BillyH.

[abbrover]

Hello Dave

The attached photo came from two totally different sources indicating the same two men - W693 Private Sam Colclough and the correct W/1068 Private William Shore.

Pete

[abbrover]

12 hours ago, Cheshire22 said:

In the photo of William Shore / Samuel Colclough do you know who is the other soldier is 

also do you have a photo of the real William Shore 

 

Hello Jamie

Alan Gregson told me that (I think) Sam Colclough is the soldier on the left, and William Shore is the one on the right.

Definitely not the one used by Mike Royden on his Ellesmere Port War Memorial website.

Pete

[Cheshire22]

8 hours ago, abbrover said:

Hello Jamie

Alan Gregson told me that (I think) Sam Colclough is the soldier on the left, and William Shore is the one on the right.

Definitely not the one used by Mike Royden on his Ellesmere Port War Memorial website.

Pete

Peter

could the soldier in the jumper be 

PRIVATE W CATON 

Service Number: W/694

Regiment & Unit/Ship

Cheshire Regiment

13th Bn.

Date of Death

Died 16 May 1916

Age 20 years old

Buried or commemorated at

AUBIGNY COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION

I. B. 53.

France

Country of Service United Kingdom

Additional Info Son of Mary Caton, of 55, Cambridge Rd., Ellesmere Port, Cheshire.

Personal Inscription HE DIED THAT THOSE HE LOVED MIGHT LIVE

As Samuel service number is W/693 and Caton’s is W/694 

which is the same as William and Thomas Shore 1068 and 1069

that Samuel and W Caton enlisted together, so they had there photography together.  
 

please can you contact Alan Gregson and see what he says again about the photo 

jamie

 

 

[BillyH]

I am sticking to my guns with the newspaper photograph of William Shore. I believe it was published in the Birkenhead and Cheshire Advertiser on or about 22nd July 1916 and the write up (below) proves that it is the correct William Shore. To be brutally honest I would rather trust a newspaper report and photo than personal recollections.

I suppose there is always the chance that both of them are William Shore, but the ears don't seem to be a match? 

BillyH.

[abbrover]

9 hours ago, BillyH said:

I am sticking to my guns with the newspaper photograph of William Shore. I believe it was published in the Birkenhead and Cheshire Advertiser on or about 22nd July 1916 and the write up (below) proves that it is the correct William Shore. To be brutally honest I would rather trust a newspaper report and photo than personal recollections.

I suppose there is always the chance that both of them are William Shore, but the ears don't seem to be a match? 

BillyH.

Having seen the photograph closer up and a tad clearer in the newspaper article, I would now agree that this could be the correct William Shore. I've just got in from work and if you look closely at the build in his face in the article to the one in "my" photo (chap on the right), its a perfect match and definitely has the same ears. What threw me was the mustache. Obviously, he could have shaved it off/grew between/after "my" photo was taken.

To be brutally honest with you - I go the other way with regards newspaper photos. They have not always proved to be reliable, and, regrettably, I have come across a lot of incorrect photos of servicemen, so I stick by my guns with that.

Alan Gregson was on one of my battlefield tours way back in 2010 or 2012, and we visited his relative - W693 Private Samuel Colclough, and in his folder he had the above photo, upon which he positively identified him (the young man on the left of the photo).

Pete

15 hours ago, Cheshire22 said:

Peter

could the soldier in the jumper be 

PRIVATE W CATON 

Service Number: W/694

Regiment & Unit/Ship

Cheshire Regiment

13th Bn.

Date of Death

Died 16 May 1916

Age 20 years old

Buried or commemorated at

AUBIGNY COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION

I. B. 53.

France

Country of Service United Kingdom

Additional Info Son of Mary Caton, of 55, Cambridge Rd., Ellesmere Port, Cheshire.

Personal Inscription HE DIED THAT THOSE HE LOVED MIGHT LIVE

As Samuel service number is W/693 and Caton’s is W/694 

which is the same as William and Thomas Shore 1068 and 1069

that Samuel and W Caton enlisted together, so they had there photography together.  
 

please can you contact Alan Gregson and see what he says again about the photo 

jamie

 

 

I have not had any contact with Alan Gregson for over 10 years

Pete

[abbrover]

The above photo was taken at Codford Camp in October/November 1914, before Codford wooden hut Camp was made, and they had both had their regimental numbers for some time. William Caton, William Shore, and Thomas Shore were part of the small contingent that enlisted into the Wirral Pal's in September 1914 from Ellesmere Port. The Shore brothers may well have been friends with William Caton, and may have been one behind the other in the queue to enlist. William Caton is not the other chap depicted with William Shore in the above photo.

Pete

[Cheshire22]

19 hours ago, abbrover said:

The above photo was taken at Codford Camp in October/November 1914, before Codford wooden hut Camp was made, and they had both had their regimental numbers for some time. William Caton, William Shore, and Thomas Shore were part of the small contingent that enlisted into the Wirral Pal's in September 1914 from Ellesmere Port. The Shore brothers may well have been friends with William Caton, and may have been one behind the other in the queue to enlist. William Caton is not the other chap depicted with William Shore in the above photo.

Pete

looking at both photographs, these are clearly two different men.  
 

I would be nice to see what Alan Gregson has to say and his opinion will be at least the correct one. 

[abbrover]

2 hours ago, Cheshire22 said:

looking at both photographs, these are clearly two different men.  
 

I would be nice to see what Alan Gregson has to say and his opinion will be at least the correct one. 

Hello Jamie

I have known Billy H for a number of years, and know that he has an interest in the 13th Cheshire's, and - eating chips with my humble pie - I concur with him that the newspaper photo is William Shore. I have extensive experience (over 30 years experience) in Great War research and studying/comparing/cross-referencing photographs used in newspapers to actual photographs of the same individuals, and now that Billy H has published this newspaper article about William Shore, and I have had chance to cross-reference it with my/your photo, I am now almost certain it is him. The lining of the jaw and the ears are exact. As I have previously mentioned, it was the mustache that threw me, but he could have grown/shaved it off at any time (I would say that the photo of William with Sam Colclough was earlier, and the mustache photo was taken later).

I have been looking for Alan Gregson's contact numbers, but can't track them.

As an aside, I see you have been having issues with the CWGC over identifying soldiers buried in war graves. I have had the same issue. Been trying to get an identification for a Lance Corporal of the 7th Bn Kings Own Royal Lancaster Regiment buried in Wytscaete Cemetery, Belgium, which will be on going for 4 years on 19th October. I have submitted documentation galore and my reasoning why it should be who I think it is, and still had nothing. It was only when questioned did they finally admit that my case has been passed to the MOD. I am not at all happy with the service I have received, and on the 19th October, I will be emailing the director.

Pete

[BillyH]

 

4 hours ago, abbrover said:

I have been looking for Alan Gregson's contact numbers, but can't track them.

I think that Alan is a member of the GWF and he goes by the name of @thetrenchrat22. His avatar is also probably a photo of Samuel Colclough?

He recently contributed to the following topic :    https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/305566-trench-rat-22/#comment-3222289

BillyH.

[abbrover]

9 hours ago, BillyH said:

 

I think that Alan is a member of the GWF and he goes by the name of @thetrenchrat22. His avatar is also probably a photo of Samuel Colclough?

He recently contributed to the following topic :    https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/305566-trench-rat-22/#comment-3222289

BillyH.

Sorry for the late reply BillyH...........I've just come in from a night shift.

Thanks for that, mate - I've sent him a message. Interesting to note his avatar is the one we think is William Shore. Lets see what Alan says.

Pete

[Cheshire22]

On 14/10/2023 at 07:59, abbrover said:

Sorry for the late reply BillyH...........I've just come in from a night shift.

Thanks for that, mate - I've sent him a message. Interesting to note his avatar is the one we think is William Shore. Lets see what Alan says.

Pete

An response yet

[abbrover]

2 hours ago, Cheshire22 said:

An response yet

No

[fellop]

Hello Pete,

I wondered what you have/know re W/239 Pte William Fellowes KIA 7 July 1916. I am his Great Nephew, his [older] sister was my paternal grandmother.

I have done just normal family-type research and have a copy of the War Diary for the period plus a scan of his photo from the local newspaper notifying his death.

He lived at 9 Scott Street Liscard and was employed first as a milkman with Francis Brother Dairymen of New Brighton but later worked for the Tramways Dept with Wallasey Corporation. I understand or believe that he was employed, on the 7 July at least, as a ‘Bomber’ perhaps along with his friends Charles Forsyth and Frank Steer.

Anything extra would be great. I have a photo somewhere [don’t we all]? I will attempt to locate it and post here of soldiers sitting in front of a partially erected hut but I am unsure if it relates to the 13 Cheshire's or some other of my WW1 relations.,

Regards

Peter

[abbrover]

1 hour ago, fellop said:

Hello Pete,

I wondered what you have/know re W/239 Pte William Fellowes KIA 7 July 1916. I am his Great Nephew, his [older] sister was my paternal grandmother.

I have done just normal family-type research and have a copy of the War Diary for the period plus a scan of his photo from the local newspaper notifying his death.

He lived at 9 Scott Street Liscard and was employed first as a milkman with Francis Brother Dairymen of New Brighton but later worked for the Tramways Dept with Wallasey Corporation. I understand or believe that he was employed, on the 7 July at least, as a ‘Bomber’ perhaps along with his friends Charles Forsyth and Frank Steer.

Anything extra would be great. I have a photo somewhere [don’t we all]? I will attempt to locate it and post here of soldiers sitting in front of a partially erected hut but I am unsure if it relates to the 13 Cheshire's or some other of my WW1 relations.,

Regards

Peter

Hello Peter

Certainly can.

William Fellowes was born in Liscard, Wallasey, circa 1896, the eldest son of John and Agnes Fellowes. His parents originally had 9 children, but 2 sadly died, and in 1911, William was  living with his parents, 3 sisters, 1 brother, and 1 niece, at 9 Scott Street, Liscard, with his father employed as a Railway Labourer. In that same year, William was employed as a 15 year old Milk Boy, having previously been educated at St. Mary's School, Liscard. By 1914, he was employed at Liscard Tramway Works.

He enlisted at Wallasey Town Hall (not the present one) between 1st-5th September, 1914, and joined his battalion at Chester Castle on 7th September 1914, and became part of No.1 Company (which consisted of mostly Wallasey men). He went on to train at Perham Downs, Codford, Bournemouth, Hursley, Finchampstead, and Aldershot, before being sent to France with his battalion on 25th September 1915. He saw action in the LeTouquet Salient, Vimy Ridge, and of course, the Somme. W239 Private William Fellowes was reported as missing/killed in action on 7th July 1916, during his battalion's attack on the village of Ovillers, but his mother did not receive confirmation of his death until February 1917. His body was never recovered and identified from the battlefield, and he is therefore commemorated by name only on Pier 3, Face C, Pier 4, Face A, The Thiepval Memorial, France.

His two friends: W151 Private Charles William Forsyth and W19 Private Frank Steer, were both killed in action during the same attack.

I co-run a research a Military & Family Genealogy business specializing in researching Great War servicemen, and I could write up William Fellowes biography - complete with photos, documents, and trench maps (sorry Peter, I am not allowed to advertise on here), but this comes with a fee.

Pete

Hope the attached helps.

[fellop]

Hi Pete,

Thanks for the prompt reply.

The first paragraph is much what I wrote and sent to the Cheshire Roll for inclusion on ‘his page’ and ‘William's Story’ with my name as an acknowledgement at the bottom. See link https://www.cheshireroll.co.uk/soldier/?i=12317/w/239-private-William-Fellowes

Certainly, and thanks, the training locations and his company allocation are new to me and I shall add that to my various notes.

I have the pictures you show of William, this from the local newspapers plus Steer and Williams.

You mention that the family was not notified officially of his death until Feb 1917 and certainly an article in the WC [Wallasey Courier?] dated 17 Feb 1917 mentions this fact. However, a note of thanks for condolence in the WN [Wallasey News?] dated 26 Aug 1916 seems to indicate that his mother knew he was dead earlier than Feb 17. His effects were signed off and authorised to be passed to his mother on 8 November 1916.

Thanks again for the information.

Best Regards

Peter

 

 

[abbrover]

2 minutes ago, fellop said:

Hi Pete,

Thanks for the prompt reply.

The first paragraph is much what I wrote and sent to the Cheshire Roll for inclusion on ‘his page’ and ‘William's Story’ with my name as an acknowledgement at the bottom. See link https://www.cheshireroll.co.uk/soldier/?i=12317/w/239-private-William-Fellowes

Certainly, and thanks, the training locations and his company allocation are new to me and I shall add that to my various notes.

I have the pictures you show of William, this from the local newspapers plus Steer and Williams.

You mention that the family was not notified officially of his death until Feb 1917 and certainly an article in the WC [Wallasey Courier?] dated 17 Feb 1917 mentions this fact. However, a note of thanks for condolence in the WN [Wallasey News?] dated 26 Aug 1916 seems to indicate that his mother knew he was dead earlier than Feb 17. His effects were signed off and authorised to be passed to his mother on 8 November 1916.

Thanks again for the information.

Best Regards

Peter

 

 

Hello again Peter

Your welcome.

His mother would have almost certainly have had some sort of "unofficial" notification (maybe from one of her son's friends, or an officer in his company) notifying her that her son was missing, but the army had a policy of officially notifying the next-of-kin approximately 6 months or so after the individual had been posted as missing in action confirming the soldiers death.

I never use The Cheshire Roll of Honour, as a lot of the information is incorrect.

Kindest regards

Pete