Rank, regiment and date?

[PRC]

3 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I would say that in the case of his presence in the Salonika theatre I don’t think that you should view the 6-months mentioned as literally continuous.  I believe that when reporting on the conduct of the officers concerned it just meant that at various points during those 6-months (i.e. encompassed by) they individually rendered good service.

Apologies - didn't express myself clearly. I just meant he returned to Salonika at some point after marrying - possibly April, possibly October, or any point inbetween.

It was more the serving in Salonika to getting married in Scotland to returning to Salonika series of events that intrigued me.

I've certainly come across Commanding Officers that have been given for example six months leave of absence to the UK from the more far flung theatres of war, but not junior officers. But that may simply because that level of detail isn't recorded for them in war diaries and regimental histories. And given the distances involved and the associated travelling time, you would have though the leave period would be counted in months rather than days, which in turn would limit the number of officers who could be released without impacting the Battalion operationally or even just have the potential to impact it. And thats before you take into account the risks of crossing the U-Boat infested Mediterranean, the Bay of Biscay\East Atlantic and the English Channel twice.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

39 minutes ago, PRC said:

Apologies - didn't express myself clearly. I just meant he returned to Salonika at some point after marrying - possibly April, possibly October, or any point inbetween.

It was more the serving in Salonika to getting married in Scotland to returning to Salonika series of events that intrigued me.

I've certainly come across Commanding Officers that have been given for example six months leave of absence to the UK from the more far flung theatres of war, but not junior officers. But that may simply because that level of detail isn't recorded for them in war diaries and regimental histories. And given the distances involved and the associated travelling time, you would have though the leave period would be counted in months rather than days, which in turn would limit the number of officers who could be released without impacting the Battalion operationally or even just have the potential to impact it. And thats before you take into account the risks of crossing the U-Boat infested Mediterranean, the Bay of Biscay\East Atlantic and the English Channel twice.

Cheers,
Peter

Yes it was certainly a long transit and would’ve had to be weighed up carefully.  The only consideration I can add is that although he was a junior officer he was also a career soldier who had spent his entire adult life in the regiment and in both regular battalions to boot.  I imagine that he was well known to all the field officers and most of the captains.  It could be that any request for leave was looked upon favourably in those circumstances, especially if to get married.  However, apparently the 2nd Battalion embarked for Salonika in November 1915, arriving in the December.  I haven’t meticulously examined all the dates like you, but is it possible that he didn’t embark to rejoin his battalion in theatre until after the marriage, but with sufficient time there subsequently to earn his accolade in the dispatches?  In other words leaving the battalion in France and rejoining them in Salonika.

Edited 22 September , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[TullochArd]

13 hours ago, PRC said:

The OBE itself was certainly awarded before December 1919 when it looks like he received the honour at Holyrood. (There may be more details on the fuller article).

1919 Birthday Honours - OBE (Military Division) awarded "For services rendered in connection with military operations in the Balkans" to "Capt. William Arnot, Cameron Highlanders"

[Tawhiri]

I must admit those details on the marriage registration are most satisfying. This is William in the 1891 Scotland census with his family, which also confirms his parent's names on his marriage registration and that the 1884 birth in St George is the right one.

ARNOT	ROBERT	1891	M	35	685/1 88/ 6	St George	Midlothian
ARNOT	MARGARET	1891	F	30	685/1 88/ 6	St George	Midlothian
ARNOT	ROBERT	1891	M	11	685/1 88/ 6	St George	Midlothian
ARNOT	DAVID C	1891	M	10	685/1 88/ 6	St George	Midlothian
ARNOT	WILLIAM	1891	M	7	685/1 88/ 6	St George	Midlothian
ARNOT	ELIZABETH	1891	F	4	685/1 88/ 6	St George	Midlothian
ARNOT	ALEXANDER	1891	M	2	685/1 88/ 6	St George	Midlothian
ARNOT	JAMES A	1891	M	0	685/1 88/ 6	St George	Midlothian

 

5 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

As a guess I suspect that the move to Haymarket in England might have been to be closer to family there.  Was there any issue from his marriage? 

Apologies on my part, I should have made it clear that the apparent registration of the deaths of William and Annie was in Haymarket, Edinburgh. The birth of William and Annie's son Robert was registered in Colinton in 1920. Knowing that they were living in Corstorphine between 1921 and until at least 1928, and they were the only Arnot's living in the district in the 1921 Scotland census, there are two female Arnot births registered in Corstorphine in 1922 and 1925 that I think we can safely assume are siblings of Robert.

Edited 22 September , 2023 by Tawhiri

[TullochArd]

18 hours ago, TullochArd said:

LG - "Capt. W. Arnot, O.B.E, h.p. list, retires on ret. pay on account of ill-health caused by wounds. 22nd Oct. 1920." (10185 SUPPLEMENT 21 OCTOBER, 1920)

The Pension Card(s) therefore relate to this 'h.p. list' award rather than a Widows Pension which has been proven inapplicable considering he is still alive some years after the War? 

I cannot fathom the letters in brackets after 'GSW' ......  

Edited 22 September , 2023 by TullochArd

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Tawhiri said:

I must admit those details on the marriage registration are most satisfying. This is William in the 1891 Scotland census with his family, which also confirms his parent's names on his marriage registration and that the 1884 birth in St George is the right one.

ARNOT	ROBERT	1891	M	35	685/1 88/ 6	St George	Midlothian
ARNOT	MARGARET	1891	F	30	685/1 88/ 6	St George	Midlothian
ARNOT	ROBERT	1891	M	11	685/1 88/ 6	St George	Midlothian
ARNOT	DAVID C	1891	M	10	685/1 88/ 6	St George	Midlothian
ARNOT	WILLIAM	1891	M	7	685/1 88/ 6	St George	Midlothian
ARNOT	ELIZABETH	1891	F	4	685/1 88/ 6	St George	Midlothian
ARNOT	ALEXANDER	1891	M	2	685/1 88/ 6	St George	Midlothian
ARNOT	JAMES A	1891	M	0	685/1 88/ 6	St George	Midlothian

 

Apologies on my part, I should have made it clear that the apparent registration of the deaths of William and Annie was in Haymarket, Edinburgh. The birth of William and Annie's son Robert was registered in Colinton in 1920. Knowing that they were living in Corstorphine between 1921 and until at least 1928, and they were the only Arnot's living in the district in the 1921 Scotland census, there are two female Arnot births registered in Corstorphine in 1922 and 1925 that I think we can safely assume are siblings of Robert.

Thank you Tawhiri, I had not heard of a Haymarket in Scotland before, but I shouldn’t have made an assumption. I think it was because you’d earlier mentioned that his decease couldn’t be found in Scotland and I put 2 and 2 together to make 5!

Edited 22 September , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

47 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

The Pension Card(s) therefore relate to this 'h.p. list' award rather than a Widows Pension which has been proven inapplicable considering he is still alive some years after the War? 

I cannot fathom the letters in brackets after 'GSW' ......  

The first letter seems to be overwritten as if correcting an error.  I’m wondering if it’s C_h_e_s_t

[TullochArd]

3 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The first letter seems to be overwritten as if correcting an error.  I’m wondering if it’s C_h_e_s_t

Agreed.

[FROGSMILE]

I’m very intrigued by his OBE and what it might’ve related to.  They were not awarded for gallantry, but for remarkable service (within the ‘Military Division’ of the Order) and given that he does not appear to have been the quartermaster, it’s difficult to interpret what nature that service took.  Adjutant is not impossible for a numerate and literate man, but if simply a company officer then that implies something else.  Unfortunately when issued in batches on a significant date of some kind they don’t always have a detailed citation.

Edited 22 September , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[longinthetooth]

Among all this fantastic detail I've become a bit confused.

Are there two different William Arnots who could be the man in the picture? I read in an earlier reply that there was a William Arnott who died prior to 1923 and his wife received a pension. In another we seem to be talking about a William Arnot who was alive after that date, possibly into the 40's.

The 1891 census link 5 posts above is the correct Arnot, matching the 1917 marriage registration which identifies his mother as Charters thus related to my source. The Morrison St address also ties in with my source's recollections. She doesn't recognise the Corstorphine address at all. 

Edited 22 September , 2023 by longinthetooth

[TullochArd]

32 minutes ago, longinthetooth said:

Are there two different William Arnots who could be the man in the picture? I read in an earlier reply that there was a William Arnott who died prior to 1923 and his wife received a pension. In another we seem to be talking about a William Arnot who was alive after that date, possibly into the 40's.

There is one Wm. Arnot here.  Based on your sources earlier recollection about death around the War I subsequently misinterpreted the Pension Cards as death.  It was actually for wounds - the GSW to Chest.  He survived.  

Edited 22 September , 2023 by TullochArd

[Tawhiri]

7 minutes ago, longinthetooth said:

Are there two different William Arnots who could be the man in the picture? I read in an earlier reply that there was a William Arnott who died prior to 1923 and his wife received a pension. In another we seem to be talking about a William Arnot who was alive after that date, possibly into the 40's.

We're talking about the same man. The original suggestion was that he had died prior to 1923 and his widow was awarded a pension, but it now appears that this pension was related to his h.p list award, and not his presumed death. The man with the medal index and pension cards with an address of Victor Park Terrace is the same man who was living in Corstorphine in the 1921 Scotland census and who was very much alive in 1928 according to the newspaper report I found last night. His wife's death was registered in Haymarket in 1969, and so in looking for the death of a William Arnot who was born in 1883/85 and died after 1928 I only found the one possibility, which was the 62-year old William Arnot who's death was registered in Haymarket in 1947. Since this is also the same registration district where the death of his presumed wife was registered 22 years later, the odds are that this is the correct William Arnot. 

It's possible they moved away from Corstorphine sometime after 1928, but in the 1921 Scotland census William and his family are the only Arnot's living in the entire district. It's possible that a look at the Scottish electoral rolls will tell you when they moved from Corstorphine to Haymarket, and what their actual street address was to see if this rings any bells.

Interestingly the 1920 and 1925 Scottish valuation rolls show a William Arnot as being the proprietor/occupier of three properties in Corstorphine, two of which are in Victor Park Terrace, the third of which is described as Maybank Villas. By 1930 he is the proprietor of eight separate properties, six in Victor Park Terrace, and two in Maybank Villas, so he was clearly doing very well for himself. It's not clear what his trade/occupation was, but possibly linked to the motor trade as four of the properties are listed as motor cycle, motor car, store, and workshop. He is listed as proprietor of the same eight properties in 1935 and 1940, which is as far as the rolls go.

[TullochArd]

41 minutes ago, longinthetooth said:

Among all this fantastic detail I've become a bit confused.

All will be revealed when you get the confirmatory detail likely recorded in the '79th News'  I'm confident this will be your Ace card.  Based on what we've uncovered so far I'd be amazed if there was not a few decent entries which should clarify his time with QOCH ...... and maybe mention his SA War prior service with another unit.  Give the researchers as much detail as you can and see what they can add.  It will be £24 well spent!   

Edited 22 September , 2023 by TullochArd

[Tawhiri]

According to the 1940 Edinburgh Post Office directory William Arnot was still in residence at 10 Victor Park Terrace at this time.

https://archive.org/details/postofficeedin194041edin/page/20/mode/2up?q="victor+park"

[longinthetooth]

1 hour ago, TullochArd said:

There is one Wm. Arnot here.  Based on your sources earlier recollection about death around the War I subsequently misinterpreted the Pension Cards as death.  It was actually for wounds - the GSW to Chest.  He survived.  

Ah! I see now.

 

[longinthetooth]

As suggested I have made a request for information from The Highlanders museum. 

Thanks so much for filling in all this detail on my source's relative. I'm sure she will be delighted to learn of his service and later history. I appreciate how much time you've all taken to contribute to our understanding of his life.

I shall make donation to the forum so that other people can benefit in the future, as we have.

Many thanks

JB

[FROGSMILE]

17 minutes ago, longinthetooth said:

As suggested I have made a request for information from The Highlanders museum. 

Thanks so much for filling in all this detail on my source's relative. I'm sure she will be delighted to learn of his service and later history. I appreciate how much time you've all taken to contribute to our understanding of his life.

I shall make donation to the forum so that other people can benefit in the future, as we have.

Many thanks

JB

It’s been pleasing to assist a little with such an interesting story.  Do please come back and let us know of any additional information that you learn from the Highlander’s Museum.

Edited 22 September , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

I’d just like to express kudos to Tullochard, PRC and Tawhiri for their fantastic genealogical efforts.  I’d rather have my fingernails pulled out than do all the online searches and filtering that they do.  It might seem effortless to them, but it’s not and I’m entirely happy to just contribute a little with information on uniforms, insignia, British Army historical protocols and those administrative procedures that I know.

Edited 22 September , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

6 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

However, apparently the 2nd Battalion embarked for Salonika in November 1915, arriving in the December.  I haven’t meticulously examined all the dates like you, but is it possible that he didn’t embark to rejoin his battalion in theatre until after the marriage, but with sufficient time there subsequently to earn his accolade in the dispatches?  In other words leaving the battalion in France and rejoining them in Salonika.

Has to be a possibility, but that would potentially see him in the UK for over a year in the middle of the war unless he served elsewhere.

The 2nd Battalion War Diary for the time he joined them in July till October 1915 is comparatively detailed - with wounded other ranks being listed when they occurred and named other ranks going to \ returning from courses. Not surprisingly the doings of officers is even more closedly reported.

10th August 1915 Erquinghem War Diary entry includes 2Lt Arnot attached to RE for ??? for one month.

Image courtesy The National Archive.

It's difficult to make out but I believe a summary of the whereabouts of those attached elsewhere and shown as part of the diary entry for the 18th August 1915 may read against Wessex RE(?) 1 Officer. (These tables appear every few days in the diary and later entries make it clear that it is a Wessex Company of the RE).

Image courtesy The National Archive

The 2nd Cameron Highlanders were part of the 27th Division. According to the Long, Long Trail, at that point the Royal Engineers Field Companys attached to the Division were:-

1st (Wessex) Field Company (later renamed 500th Field Company)
2nd (Wessex) Field Company ( later renamed 501st Field Company)
17th Field Company (joined from 5th Division 26 March 1915)
Wessex Divisional Signal Company
http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/27th-division/

So Cook, Musketry Instructor, and now possibly Engineer - is there no end to this mans versatility

The 8th September 1915 entry records 2Lt Arnot returned to Regimental Duty from attachment to Wessex R.E, 2/Lt Napier taking his place. (He returned about a week later).

Leave was cancelled in mid September 1915 as the Brigade was temporarily changing Divisions, and then again temporarily in late October. After the 8th September entry I'm not seeing anything further for William - no wounding or going on leave to the UK or going on a course like other officers referred to. This part of the Battalion War Diary ends on the 31st October 1915.

Hope that helps,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

12 hours ago, PRC said:

Has to be a possibility, but that would potentially see him in the UK for over a year in the middle of the war unless he served elsewhere.

The 2nd Battalion War Diary for the time he joined them in July till October 1915 is comparatively detailed - with wounded other ranks being listed when they occurred and named other ranks going to \ returning from courses. Not surprisingly the doings of officers is even more closedly reported.

10th August 1915 Erquinghem War Diary entry includes 2Lt Arnot attached to RE for ??? for one month.

Image courtesy The National Archive.

It's difficult to make out but I believe a summary of the whereabouts of those attached elsewhere and shown as part of the diary entry for the 18th August 1915 may read against Wessex RE(?) 1 Officer. (These tables appear every few days in the diary and later entries make it clear that it is a Wessex Company of the RE).

Image courtesy The National Archive

The 2nd Cameron Highlanders were part of the 27th Division. According to the Long, Long Trail, at that point the Royal Engineers Field Companys attached to the Division were:-

1st (Wessex) Field Company (later renamed 500th Field Company)
2nd (Wessex) Field Company ( later renamed 501st Field Company)
17th Field Company (joined from 5th Division 26 March 1915)
Wessex Divisional Signal Company
http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/27th-division/

So Cook, Musketry Instructor, and now possibly Engineer - is there no end to this mans versatility

The 8th September 1915 entry records 2Lt Arnot returned to Regimental Duty from attachment to Wessex R.E, 2/Lt Napier taking his place. (He returned about a week later).

Leave was cancelled in mid September 1915 as the Brigade was temporarily changing Divisions, and then again temporarily in late October. After the 8th September entry I'm not seeing anything further for William - no wounding or going on leave to the UK or going on a course like other officers referred to. This part of the Battalion War Diary ends on the 31st October 1915.

Hope that helps,
Peter

Thank you Peter.  Inconclusive then in terms of evidence for him going on leave before 31st Oct, but of course a sensible time for him to have gone would’ve been as the battalion embarked upon board ship.  The work with RE was typical for all infantry battalions at that time, which commonly provided labour under the control of RE officers and NCOs.  It was usual for only one battalion officer to go with each work party, in order to see that his men’s interests were not neglected.  Eventually the frequency of these duties caused difficulties and some resentment and the need to resolve matters played a large part in the decision to create a permanent and dedicated Labour Corps to replace infantry for such manual work, although it took until 1917 to do so.

NB.  The diary seems to say ‘2Lt Arnot attached to RE for instr for one month’.  He seems to have taken his orderly with him.

Edited 23 September , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[TullochArd]

13 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I couldn’t help but break into a wry smile when I read that the occupation of the bride’s father was Chief Range Warden.  

Chief Range Warden Dreghorn Woods Ranges. Today Colinton, Castlelaw, Redford and Dreghorn all sort of morph together in the military collective memory.  Dreghorn (Woods) Ranges were created in the early years of the Great War but by 1917 was a serious concern.  The  attached 1947 RAF aerial photo shows the extent of the Great War dummy trenches which, after a national newspaper campaign in 2012, have (what remains) been preserved for posterity.  The range complex also had three period gallery ranges (which I well recall as 200, 300 and 500 yds and with "Targets Up! Targets Down!" Hythe Pattern Target Frames) all rubbed out, along with all associated range paraphernalia, around 1985. 

The trenches you see on the attached photo are described by Historic Environment Scotland as "a supervisor trench on the N, which is linked to a 'trench and traverse' line with angled and straight communication trenches leading S. Further S still are what appear to be angled sapper's trenches leading into a short stretch of 'trench and traverse'. The area of trenches about 200m SE of Chucklie Knowe (NT 2293 6750) defines a roughly rectangular area and has a different style of trench on each side. These include 'trench and traverse', 'tenaille' and 'curved without traverses'. The trench-system 300m S of Chucklie Knowe (NT 2264 6737) also includes these three types of trench, together with two forms of communication trenches, known as 'zigzag' and 'island traverse'."

OK HES ........ you've certainly bamboozled me.

[FROGSMILE]

9 hours ago, TullochArd said:

Chief Range Warden Dreghorn Woods Ranges. Today Colinton, Castlelaw, Redford and Dreghorn all sort of morph together in the military collective memory.  Dreghorn (Woods) Ranges were created in the early years of the Great War but by 1917 was a serious concern.  The  attached 1947 RAF aerial photo shows the extent of the Great War dummy trenches which, after a national newspaper campaign in 2012, have (what remains) been preserved for posterity.  The range complex also had three period gallery ranges (which I well recall as 200, 300 and 500 yds and with "Targets Up! Targets Down!" Hythe Pattern Target Frames) all rubbed out, along with all associated range paraphernalia, around 1985. 

The trenches you see on the attached photo are described by Historic Environment Scotland as "a supervisor trench on the N, which is linked to a 'trench and traverse' line with angled and straight communication trenches leading S. Further S still are what appear to be angled sapper's trenches leading into a short stretch of 'trench and traverse'. The area of trenches about 200m SE of Chucklie Knowe (NT 2293 6750) defines a roughly rectangular area and has a different style of trench on each side. These include 'trench and traverse', 'tenaille' and 'curved without traverses'. The trench-system 300m S of Chucklie Knowe (NT 2264 6737) also includes these three types of trench, together with two forms of communication trenches, known as 'zigzag' and 'island traverse'."

OK HES ........ you've certainly bamboozled me.

Like you I recall the target frames so well!  Memories of the white painted wooden pointer indicating ‘inner’, ‘outer’ and ‘washout’ (miss!) and annual inter-company shooting competitions.  I’m afraid your concluding remark has flown right over my head?

Edited 23 September , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[TullochArd]

3 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

’m afraid your concluding remark has flown right over my head?

"OK HES ........ you've certainly bamboozled me" or OK Historic Environment Scotland your wordy description of the Great War trenches that I quoted has flown right over my head!

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, TullochArd said:

"OK HES ........ you've certainly bamboozled me" or OK Historic Environment Scotland your wordy description of the Great War trenches that I quoted has flown right over my head!

Ah yes, I see now.  It really should be accompanied or linked to some diagrams of each type of trench mentioned.  I agree that it’s pretty meaningless to the average visitor otherwise.

[longinthetooth]

TullochArd and Frogsmile - are you familiar with the Dreghorn/Redford area of Edinburgh?