Rank, regiment and date?

[TullochArd]

16 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Half Pay, an official euphemism for a type of pension for officers.  It was maintained as a list with limited numbers eligible.

TVM Frogsmile.  The limited 'membership' further indicates exceptional prior service perhaps?

Edited 21 September , 2023 by TullochArd

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, TullochArd said:

TVM Frogsmile.  The limited 'membership' further indicates exceptional prior service perhaps?

Yes, it usually meant a retired officer (on the regular reserve) who had been recalled to service for specific purposes such as recruiting, or some other discrete job not justifying full pay.  The limited numbers aspect was for budgetary capture within annual defence estimates.

Edited 21 September , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

Sorry folks - lot to take in but can I take it we are talking about this individual? - Second Lieutenant William Arnot, Cameron Highlanders, who landed in France on the 5th July 1915, and subsequently made Captain. Contact address for his medal claim in September 1921 was Victor Park Terrace, Corstorphine, Edinburgh.

Image courtesy Ancestry.

Cheers,
Peter

Edit - he also has some emblems issued so possible MiD.

Edited 21 September , 2023 by PRC
Typos

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, PRC said:

Sorry folks - lot to take it, but can I take it we are talking about this individual? - Second Lieutenant William Arnot, Cameron Highlanders, who landed in France on the 5th July 1915, and subsequently made Captain. Contact address for his medal claim in September 1921 was Victor Park Terrace, Corstorphine, Edinburgh.

Image courtesy Ancestry.

Cheers,
Peter

It certainly looks like him ostensibly.  Does the medal roll say he was with the 2nd Battalion Peter?

[PRC]

5 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Does the medal roll say he was with the 2nd Battalion Peter?

Sorry @FROGSMILE that would require subscription access to Ancestry to check - and in my experience there tends to be minimal details on the officer rolls anyway.

However British Monthly Army Lists I can do for you - and the one for December 1915 shows 2nd Lieutenant W. Arnot, with seniority from the 21st May 1915, serving with the 2nd Battalion. (Column 1484). https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/103910948

His appearance on the list of names mentioned in despatches is in the Supplement to the London Gazette, 28th November 1917, when he was a Lieutenant with the Cameron Highlanders - (Bottom right hand corner). https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30404/supplement/12484

No battalion stated in the London Gazette or on the record card at the National Archive. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6300014

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

39 minutes ago, PRC said:

Sorry @FROGSMILE that would require subscription access to Ancestry to check - and in my experience there tends to be minimal details on the officer rolls anyway.

However British Monthly Army Lists I can do for you - and the one for December 1915 shows 2nd Lieutenant W. Arnot, with seniority from the 21st May 1915, serving with the 2nd Battalion. (Column 1484). https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/103910948

His appearance on the list of names mentioned in despatches is in the Supplement to the London Gazette, 28th November 1917, when he was a Lieutenant with the Cameron Highlanders - (Bottom right hand corner). https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30404/supplement/12484

No battalion stated in the London Gazette or on the record card at the National Archive. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6300014

Cheers,
Peter

The 2nd Battalion reference confirms the Salonika theory and he must have deployed with the battalion in December of 1915.  The commissioning details in the London Gazette should in theory tell us if he was given a quartermaster’s commission, or a temporary wartime commission.

Edited 21 September , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

As the MiC shows a link to the Corstorphine area of Edinburgh in September 1921, (with a strong likelihood that he was actually living there), I did a search on Scotland's People for the 1921 Census of Scotland, taken June 1921.

There is a potential match, but that individual has been transcribed as only 37 years old. Could be a transcription error, but other than him lieing about his age difficult to see how he would have fought in the Anglo-Boer War.

Someone with full access may be able to glean more.

Image courtesy Scotlands People.

However while checking for earlier sources I noted there is a 29 year old unmarried Sergeant William Arnot, 1st Battalion Cameron Highlanders, recorded on the 1911 Census of England & Wales in barracks at the Marlborough Lines, Aldershot. He was born Midlothian, Edinburgh. But his army trade is Cook, not Musketry Instructor.

So could possibly be the same individual - the 1911 Census return shows his "Army age" and the 1921 Census his true age. Linkage may come through a common place of birth. Would be interesting to know if the man on the 1921 Census return is referred to as Captain or even (honorary) Major and whether there is any reference to his OBE.

The OBE itself was certainly awarded before December 1919 when it looks like he received the honour at Holyrood. (There may be more details on the fuller article).

Image courtesy FindMyPast.

Cheers,
Peter

[PRC]

30 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The 2nd Battalion confirms the Salonika theory and he must have deployed with the battalion in December of 1915.

Sorry, being a bit slow of thought. His appearance in that list of names mentioned in despatches at the end of November 1917 actually relates to a despatch from Lieutenant General G.F. Milne, Commanding-in-Chief, British Salonika Force. Here's the preamble on the first page of that supplement to the London Gazette.

Image courtesy The London Gazette.https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30404/supplement/12484

Cheers,
Peter

[Tawhiri]

His commissioning as a 2nd Lieutenant with the Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders on 21 May 1915, he was formerly Colour-Serjeant William Arnot of the same regiment, so things are looking promising.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29168/supplement/4873

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

As the MiC shows a link to the Corstorphine area of Edinburgh in September 1921, (with a strong likelihood that he was actually living there), I did a search on Scotland's People for the 1921 Census of Scotland, taken June 1921.

There is a potential match, but that individual has been transcribed as only 37 years old. Could be a transcription error, but other than him lieing about his age difficult to see how he would have fought in the Anglo-Boer War.

Someone with full access may be able to glean more.

Image courtesy Scotlands People.

However while checking for earlier sources I noted there is a 29 year old unmarried Sergeant William Arnot, 1st Battalion Cameron Highlanders, recorded on the 1911 Census of England & Wales in barracks at the Marlborough Lines, Aldershot. He was born Midlothian, Edinburgh. But his army trade is Cook, not Musketry Instructor.

So could possibly be the same individual - the 1911 Census return shows his "Army age" and the 1921 Census his true age. Linkage may come through a common place of birth. Would be interesting to know if the man on the 1921 Census return is referred to as Captain or even (honorary) Major and whether there is any reference to his OBE.

The OBE itself was certainly awarded before December 1919 when it looks like he received the honour at Holyrood. (There may be more details on the fuller article).

Image courtesy FindMyPast.

Cheers,
Peter

Interesting mention of cook.  He might have attended the Aldershot course, but it would be quite an unusual change to go from cook sergeant to musketry sergeant.

If he did as I suspect obtain a quartermaster’s commission then at that time it was protocol that all of his ranks had the prefix ‘honorary’, e.g. quartermaster and honorary lieutenant.

42 minutes ago, PRC said:

Sorry, being a bit slow of thought. His appearance in that list of names mentioned in despatches at the end of November 1917 actually relates to a despatch from Lieutenant General G.F. Milne, Commanding-in-Chief, British Salonika Force. Here's the preamble on the first page of that supplement to the London Gazette.

Image courtesy The London Gazette.https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30404/supplement/12484

Cheers,
Peter

Excellent, that all confirms the scenario whereby he obtains a Greek Military Cross.

The subsequent OBE chimes with an officer commissioned from the ranks with the highest of reputations.

Edited 21 September , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

42 minutes ago, Tawhiri said:

His commissioning as a 2nd Lieutenant with the Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders on 21 May 1915, he was formerly Colour-Serjeant William Arnot of the same regiment, so things are looking promising.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29168/supplement/4873

That’s dotted the i and crossed the t I think Tawhiri, and makes it extremely likely we have identified the colour sergeant in subject photograph posted by @longinthetooth.  Excellent detective work all round and I doff my hat to all you genealogists.  Job well done.

NB.  I continue to be curious as to what his function as an officer was with 2nd Battalion.  I’m assuming it was quartermaster but it could also have been transport officer.  The LG just says commissioned as 2nd Lt so we still don’t know what category of commission he held.

Edited 21 September , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Tawhiri]

5 hours ago, PRC said:

So could possibly be the same individual - the 1911 Census return shows his "Army age" and the 1921 Census his true age.

It's a big if, but if 37 is his true age in the 1921 Scotland census, and he is the same individual serving with the Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders in the 1911 England and Wales who was born in Midlothian, then this birth registered in St George, Midlothian in 1884 is the only one that really seems to fit.

ARNOT    WILLIAM    M    1884    685 / 1 / 716    St George

There is no mother's maiden name recorded, so he was potentially also illegitimate. See later reply below.

In the 1921 Scotland census he is living with a 30-year old Annie McD Arnot, and what must be their son, 1-year old Robert McD Arnot.

ARNOT	WILLIAM	1921	M	37	685/13 4/ 14	Corstorphine	Midlothian
ARNOT	ANNIE MCD	1921	F	30	685/13 4/ 14	Corstorphine	Midlothian
ARNOT	ROBERT MCD	1921	M	1	685/13 4/ 14	Corstorphine	Midlothian

William Arnot married Annie McDougall Hill in Colinton in 1917, and given the date, his rank and regiment should have been recorded on the marriage registration if he was serving at the time. This would quickly confirm whether this particular William Arnot is the right one.

ARNOT     WILLIAM     HILL     ANNIE MCDOUGALL     1917     677 / 3     Colinton

Edited 22 September , 2023 by Tawhiri

[FROGSMILE]

It doesn’t seem completely impossible that he might have served in South Africa aged around 17, although if he was indeed illegitimate it does beg the question as to who paid for his passage to get out there.

Edited 21 September , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Tawhiri]

I'll take back my earlier comment about being potentially illegitimate, I have found the family in the 1891 Scotland census, and a quick crosscheck of the names of the other siblings living with William shows that the births of all of them, with the exception of William for some reason, were registered with a mother's maiden name of Charters. That 1917 marriage registration is key, because this will not only show if William was serving at the time, and if so what his rank and regiment was, but it will also name his parents.

[PRC]

45 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

If he did as I suspect obtain a quartermaster’s commission then at that time it was protocol that all of his ranks had the prefix ‘honorary’, e.g. quartermaster and honorary lieutenant.

The May 1915 commissioning of Quarter-Master Serjeant Fairbairn and Colour Sergeants Clarke, Veith and Arnot are all shown in the London Gazette as Second Lieutenants - no mention of Honorary.

In the December 1915 British Army Monthly List I linked to earlier, Fairbairn is with the 1st Battalion, while the other three are with the 2nd. On the next page both the 1st and 2nd Battalions are listed as having Honorary Quartermasters - although of course there is always the potential for a timing issue or a clerical error.

According to the 2nd Battalion War Diary Veitch and Clarke arrived on the 11th July 1915, being posted to D and B Companys respectively.

On the 12th July 1915 "2/Lt Arnot joined from Invergordon and was posted to C Company".

And on the November 1917 Monthly List, (roughly contemporary with the M.i.D for Arnot), Lieutenant Fairbairn is with the 1st Battalion, (the Battalion is also shown with an Honorary Quartermaster), Clarke and Arnot are with the 2nd, (again the Battalion is also shown with an Honorary Quartermaster) and Veitch is attached to the Machine Gun Corps. (Column 1484). https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/104135000

So looking more like the four of them were a reflection of the British Armys desperate need for junior officers in the spring of 1915.

Cheers,
Peter

[Tawhiri]

The encouraging thing is that while I can easily find the William Arnot who's birth was registered in St George, Midlothian in 1884 in the 1891 Scotland census, I cannot see an obvious match for him in either the 1901 or 1911 Scotland censuses, which would be expected if he was in South Africa in 1901, and with the Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders in England in 1911.

10 hours ago, TullochArd said:

Great War 2Lt to Capt William Arnot QOCH (identified above) dies some time before 1923 and his widow Annie receives a pension.  (WW1 Pension Register 1914-23).  "GSW" (Gun Shot Wound) is the recorded as the pensionable factor.  Annie Arnot is recorded as in receipt of the pension whilst living at Victor Park Terrace, Corstorphine, Edinburgh.

This definitely confirms that the William Arnot that PRC found in the 1921 Scotland census is our man, because his implied wife from both the 1921 Scotland census and the 1917 marriage registration is Annie Arnot.

I'm not having any joy, however, in finding his death, at least not in Scotland. There are no William Arnot(t) deaths registered in Scotland between 1921 and 1923 that match either his assumed age or presumed location. There are a couple registered in England in the same timeframe, but none that are a match for his stated age in the 1921 Scotland census.

Edited to add that this newspaper article suggests that he was very much alive in 1928, and living at the same address he was in 1921. From the Midlothian Advertiser of Friday, 30 March 1928:

... Hon. President, Councillor J. C. M*Kerlinie: president. Mr Wni. Seobie rire-preslilent. Mr Albert Lewis, secretary. Mr William Arnot: Victor Park Terrace, Corstorphine; treasurer. Mr Georg* Amos. Ist XVI skips-Messrs Wen. Scobie (14 W. H. Scouller, Wm ...

Annie's death at the age of 78 was registered in Haymarket in 1969. This then leads to this death in the same registration district in 1947 as a possible death for William, with an implied birth year of 1884/85.

ARNOT     WILLIAM     62     M     1947     685 / 1 / 70     Haymarket

Edited 22 September , 2023 by Tawhiri

[FROGSMILE]

7 hours ago, PRC said:

The May 1915 commissioning of Quarter-Master Serjeant Fairbairn and Colour Sergeants Clarke, Veith and Arnot are all shown in the London Gazette as Second Lieutenants - no mention of Honorary.

In the December 1915 British Army Monthly List I linked to earlier, Fairbairn is with the 1st Battalion, while the other three are with the 2nd. On the next page both the 1st and 2nd Battalions are listed as having Honorary Quartermasters - although of course there is always the potential for a timing issue or a clerical error.

According to the 2nd Battalion War Diary Veitch and Clarke arrived on the 11th July 1915, being posted to D and B Companys respectively.

On the 12th July 1915 "2/Lt Arnot joined from Invergordon and was posted to C Company".

And on the November 1917 Monthly List, (roughly contemporary with the M.i.D for Arnot), Lieutenant Fairbairn is with the 1st Battalion, (the Battalion is also shown with an Honorary Quartermaster), Clarke and Arnot are with the 2nd, (again the Battalion is also shown with an Honorary Quartermaster) and Veitch is attached to the Machine Gun Corps. (Column 1484). https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/104135000

So looking more like the four of them were a reflection of the British Armys desperate need for junior officers in the spring of 1915.

Cheers,
Peter

Thank you Peter, that has clarified things perfectly.  He must have received a temporary wartime commission, as the army traditionally reserved its ‘regular commissions’ for those emerging still from the course syllabus run by the Royal Military College and the Royal Military Academy.  It would be interesting I think to learn how many commission types there were, and their differences, at the beginning of 1918.  I imagine they would have been articulated in the Royal Army Pay Warrant, but am unsure.

Edited 22 September , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

8 hours ago, Tawhiri said:

The encouraging thing is that while I can easily find the William Arnot who's birth was registered in St George, Midlothian in 1884 in the 1891 Scotland census, I cannot see an obvious match for him in either the 1901 or 1911 Scotland censuses, which would be expected if he was in South Africa in 1901, and with the Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders in England in 1911.

This definitely confirms that the William Arnot that PRC found in the 1921 Scotland census is our man, because his implied wife from both the 1921 Scotland census and the 1917 marriage registration is Annie Arnot.

I'm not having any joy, however, in finding his death, at least not in Scotland. There are no William Arnot(t) deaths registered in Scotland between 1921 and 1923 that match either his assumed age or presumed location. There are a couple registered in England in the same timeframe, but none that are a match for his stated age in the 1921 Scotland census.

Edited to add that this newspaper article suggests that he was very much alive in 1928, and living at the same address he was in 1921. From the Midlothian Advertiser of Friday, 30 March 1928:

... Hon. President, Councillor J. C. M*Kerlinie: president. Mr Wni. Seobie rire-preslilent. Mr Albert Lewis, secretary. Mr William Arnot: Victor Park Terrace, Corstorphine; treasurer. Mr Georg* Amos. Ist XVI skips-Messrs Wen. Scobie (14 W. H. Scouller, Wm ...

Annie's death at the age of 78 was registered in Haymarket in 1969. This then leads to this death in the same registration district in 1947 as a possible death for William, with an implied birth year of 1884/85.

ARNOT     WILLIAM     62     M     1947     685 / 1 / 70     Haymarket

Brilliant research and deduction Tawhiri, it’s good to know that after an active war, in which he received a wound serious enough for him to be pensioned, he lived on and enjoyed what seems to have been an relatively active life together with his wife, and seemingly surviving into the late 1940s (having lived through yet another war!).

As a guess I suspect that the move to Haymarket in England might have been to be closer to family there.  Was there any issue from his marriage? 

Edited 22 September , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[longinthetooth]

8 hours ago, Tawhiri said:

I'll take back my earlier comment about being potentially illegitimate, I have found the family in the 1891 Scotland census, and a quick crosscheck of the names of the other siblings living with William shows that the births of all of them, with the exception of William for some reason, were registered with a mother's maiden name of Charters. That 1917 marriage registration is key, because this will not only show if William was serving at the time, and if so what his rank and regiment was, but it will also name his parents.

I can confirm that Charters is a family name in my source's line.

 

[TullochArd]

15 minutes ago, longinthetooth said:

I can confirm that Charters is a family name in my source's line.

 

...... well all this is coming together nicely. We'll done your source!

[FROGSMILE]

31 minutes ago, longinthetooth said:

I can confirm that Charters is a family name in my source's line.

 

The family memory that mentions ‘Major’ in connection with his name might well be correct.  Officers with long and honourable (as in lauded) service were often retired one rank above that which they held in the service.  From that point they were entitled to be addressed by that rank.  

Edited 22 September , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[longinthetooth]

9 hours ago, Tawhiri said:

I'll take back my earlier comment about being potentially illegitimate, I have found the family in the 1891 Scotland census, and a quick crosscheck of the names of the other siblings living with William shows that the births of all of them, with the exception of William for some reason, were registered with a mother's maiden name of Charters. That 1917 marriage registration is key, because this will not only show if William was serving at the time, and if so what his rank and regiment was, but it will also name his parents.

[FROGSMILE]

43 minutes ago, longinthetooth said:

I couldn’t help but break into a wry smile when I read that the occupation of the bride’s father was Chief Range Warden.  Clearly the colour sergeant instructor of musketry was busy in more than just the butts and patching up targets when visiting the rifle range.  He wasn’t just adjusting his soldiers’ sights, but his own too!

NB.  Range warden was a very common occupation for a retired SNCO.  I’d happily make a small wager that he might well have been an ex 79th man himself, and perhaps even known to the groom.  He would have seen the groom as a good catch given his rise to a commission, regardless of the former being the son of a blacksmith.

Representative images of Colinton Parish Church below.

Edited 22 September , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

Intriguing - they marry in January 1917. The mention in despatches is dated 25th October 1917 and the preamble states the names are those "I desire to bring to your Lordship’s notice for gallant conduct and distinguished services rendered during the past six months”.

If that can be taken literally that puts Lieutenant Arnot on the Salonika Front until at least the end of April 1917.

Probably a faulty assumption on my part that home leave from the Salonika front was pretty much a rarity, given the inherent dangers of travelling to and from the UK. I would have thought a medical evacuation more likely, but then unlikely he'd be returned back to Salonika on recovery rather than bundled off to France & Flanders. Given the difficulty of getting replacements for Salonika and Egypt\Palestine all but the most seriously wounded tended to be retained in theatre and treated in the hospitals in Egypt, Malta and Gibraltar. Of course given the sheer numbers involved there will always be exceptions.

But a keyword check, ("Arnot") of The Times from the 1st January 1916 to the 31st December 1919 fails to bring up any likely candidate in the Official Casualty Lists. And no standout match in the UK Probate Calendar for the period 1920-1925 for William. Similarly no candidates in the 1947-1950 Probate Calendar for the possible William identified by @Tawhiri

Frustrating,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

10 minutes ago, PRC said:

Intriguing - they marry in January 1917. The mention in despatches is dated 25th October 1917 and the preamble states the names are those "I desire to bring to your Lordship’s notice for gallant conduct and distinguished services rendered during the past six months”.

If that can be taken literally that puts Lieutenant Arnot on the Salonika Front until at least the end of April 1917.

Probably a faulty assumption on my part that home leave from the Salonika front was pretty much a rarity, given the inherent dangers of travelling to and from the UK. I would have thought a medical evacuation more likely, but then unlikely he'd be returned back to Salonika on recovery rather than bundled off to France & Flanders. Given the difficulty of getting replacements for Salonika and Egypt\Palestine all but the most seriously wounded tended to be retained in theatre and treated in the hospitals in Egypt, Malta and Gibraltar. Of course given the sheer numbers involved there will always be exceptions.

But a keyword check, ("Arnot") of The Times from the 1st January 1916 to the 31st December 1919 fails to bring up any likely candidate in the Official Casualty Lists. And no standout match in the UK Probate Calendar for the period 1920-1925 for William. Similarly no candidates in the 1947-1950 Probate Calendar for the possible William identified by @Tawhiri

Frustrating,
Peter

As always you make good points Peter, but I would say that in the case of his presence in the Salonika theatre I don’t think that you should view the 6-months mentioned as literally continuous.  I believe that when reporting on the conduct of the officers concerned it just meant that at various points during those 6-months (i.e. encompassed by) they individually rendered good service.  It’s also worth keeping in mind that when it came to leave officers were traditionally treated differently (separately) to other ranks and with greater leeway whenever possible.

Edited 22 September , 2023 by FROGSMILE