Rank, regiment and date?

[longinthetooth]

Hi there.

I came across this photo belonging to a relative and wondered if anyone could identify his rank, regiment and narrow down when the photo was taken? My relative says WW1 but I'm not sure. I'm thinking a sergeant from QOCH but that's just conjecture on my part.

JB

 

[FROGSMILE]

On 10/09/2023 at 13:43, longinthetooth said:

Hi there.

I came across this photo belonging to a relative and wondered if anyone could identify his rank, regiment and narrow down when the photo was taken? My relative says WW1 but I'm not sure. I'm thinking a sergeant from QOCH but that's just conjecture on my part.

JB

 

Queens Own (Cameron) Highlanders, colour sergeant instructor of musketry, one of the battalion’s headquarters staff sergeants.  Although a second class staff sergeant, along with the pipe and drum majors, his appointment had the traditional privilege of wearing a tunic with first class lace (gold) on collar and cuffs.  This can be seen on his doublet, worn here as walking-out-dress.  He appears to be a recipient of the King’s South Africa Medal with around 5 clasps, which indicates a date between 1903 and 1914.

NB.  Notice the hook on the left side of his waistbelt, which was to attach the sword carriage when on parade or duty in review order.  His badge of appointment was three stripes surmounted by a conjoined crossed rifles and crown badge.

Edited 19 September , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[longinthetooth]

Wow. Thanks so much for the details Much appreciated!

 

 

[RNCVR]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

 He appears to be a recipient of the King’s South Africa Medal with around 5 clasps, which indicates a date between 1903 and 1914.

Queens South Africa medal   (Kings only had 2 clasps max)

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

On 10/09/2023 at 16:40, RNCVR said:

 

Thank you Bryan, it surely can’t be that then, thank you for pointing it out.

 It’s clearly somewhere with a substantial number of actions.  I’ll have a look at what the Cameron’s were up to and report back.

Edited 22 September , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[RNCVR]

@FROGSMILE    It could be QSA with several clasps (approx 6,7). But when I first viewed the Photo I was thinking IGS 1895- but the clasps on that medal are large (wider) & would be spaced out more, so then I thought QSA.  But with the somewhat blurry medal image its hard to tell exactly, & the ribbon is too indistinct to tell.

Edited 10 September , 2023 by RNCVR

[FROGSMILE]

1st Battalion in SA from 1900 until the end of the War.

It seems it must be the Queen’s South Africa Medal, but I didnt think I could see any white** on the ribbon in the photo.

Typical clasps for the battalion were: Cape Colony, Orange Free State, Transvaal, South Africa 1901, South Africa 1902.

Also Johannesburg, Diamond Hill and Wittebergen.

** I see now that I inadvertently mixed up the QSA and KSA ribbon colours.

 

 

Edited 19 September , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[RNCVR]

Its deffo a QSA & likely some nice battle clasps as well!

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

@FROGSMILE    It could be QSA with several clasps (approx 6,7). But when I first viewed the Photo I was thinking IGS 1895- but the clasps on that medal are large (wider) & would be spaced out more, so then I thought QSA.  But with the somewhat blurry medal image its hard to tell exactly.

Snap!

Just now, RNCVR said:

Its deffo a QSA & likely some nice battle clasps as well!

Yes, some of the typical ones mentioned above I imagine.

[FROGSMILE]

44 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Snap!

Yes, some of the typical ones mentioned above I imagine.

Image shows a medal with Cameron’s provenance.

Edited 10 September , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[longinthetooth]

Some great detail there. Thank you for your observations. Is there any chance I could positive identify this man? My relative says his surname was Arnott.

[FROGSMILE]

14 minutes ago, longinthetooth said:

Some great detail there. Thank you for your observations. Is there any chance I could positive identify this man? My relative says his surname was Arnott.

Well he’s a regular so our fantastic genealogical detectives would be looking for a Colour Sergeant Arnott with 1st or 2nd Cameron’s between 1903 and say 1910.  Looking at his apparent age he might have retired after that.

[RNCVR]

Is it possible for a mate to check the Queens own Cameron Higlanders QSA medal roll to determine if a Colour Serg't by the name of ARNOTT is on that roll?

[TullochArd]

37 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

Is it possible for a mate to check the Queens own Cameron Higlanders QSA medal roll to determine if a Colour Serg't by the name of ARNOTT is on that roll?

I've checked QSA Roll.  I found no Arnott QOCH. 

That said, the most plausible Cameron multi bar medal with a straight suspender remains the QSA. 

Could the name be wrong?

Edited 11 September , 2023 by TullochArd

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, TullochArd said:

I've checked QSA Roll.  I found no Arnott QOCH. 

That said, the most plausible Cameron multi bar medal with a straight suspender remains the QSA. 

Could the name be wrong?

If family lore has been passed down incorrectly, which as we know is entirely possible and not uncommon.

[longinthetooth]

Sorry for my tardy reply and many thanks for the helpful comments above. I've been away from my pc for a week and was unable to access the website.

It is indeed perfectly possible that the name has been passed down incorrectly. I am relying on the fallible memory of a 98 year old!

 

[TullochArd]

On 18/09/2023 at 20:48, longinthetooth said:

I am relying on the fallible memory of a 98 year old!

I have revisited the QSA roll and tried Arnot with a single "t".  This produced no QSA medal QOCH hits either.  It did lead me to venture that a senior QOCH from, let's say 1903-ish, may have a role in the Great War.  Although there was a 2Lt/TCapt William Arnot (15 Star/BWM/BVM/MiD) in the QOCH a search of the LG produced nothing to support a commissioned later connection.    

The photo represents a very senior QOCH SNCO from around 1903-1912-ish.  I recall the back pages of the '79th News' had named lists of such men and their locations but sadly I no longer have access to these.  I reckon this mystery may be worth considering paying a research fee of (£24) to the Highlanders Museum and getting them onto the case? 

The link is here:  Research Request – The Highlanders' Museum (Queen's Own Highlanders Collection) (thehighlandersmuseum.shop)

The fee is refundable in the event of a non-hit ......... which will most certainly not be the case here. 

[FROGSMILE]

22 hours ago, TullochArd said:

I have revisited the QSA roll and tried Arnot with a single "t".  This produced no QSA medal QOCH hits either.  It did lead me to venture that a senior QOCH from, let's say 1903-ish, may have a role in the Great War.  Although there was a 2Lt/TCapt William Arnot (15 Star/BWM/BVM/MiD) in the QOCH a search of the LG produced nothing to support a commissioned later connection.    

The photo represents a very senior QOCH SNCO from around 1903-1912-ish.  I recall the back pages of the '79th News' had named lists of such men and their locations but sadly I no longer have access to these.  I reckon this mystery may be worth considering paying a research fee of (£24) to the Highlanders Museum and getting them onto the case? 

The link is here:  Research Request – The Highlanders' Museum (Queen's Own Highlanders Collection) (thehighlandersmuseum.shop)

The fee is refundable in the event of a non-hit ......... which will most certainly not be the case here. 

I think that’s likely to be a profitable course of action.  It’s a fine portrait photograph and there were only two regular colour sergeant instructors of musketry in 1903, one each for 1st and 2nd Battalions.  Those others who were serving with the VBs were dressed (ranked) differently.  I’m not sure offhand if the 3rd (Militia) Battalion was also established for such a post, but given their training remit it seems very likely, so potentially that would be a third.

Edited 21 September , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[longinthetooth]

More family "lore". The 98 year old fallible memory refers to him as "Major" which I thought might really mean he was a Sergeant Major later in his career (given his sergeant stripes in the photo). My source also claims he died during (or was killed) in WW1. Both of these may be incorrect of course.

Thank you for the link to the research request. I will most certainly try it though there is a warning there that requests are taking 6 months to complete.

Once again thank you all for your contributions which are much appreciated. I am in awe of the mastery of detail demonstrated!

[TullochArd]

On 21/09/2023 at 07:43, longinthetooth said:

......... My source also claims he died during (or was killed) in WW1. Both of these may be incorrect of course.

Maybe not.......

Great War 2Lt to Capt William Arnot QOCH (identified above) dies some time before 1923 and his widow Annie receives a pension.  (WW1 Pension Register 1914-23).  "GSW" (Gun Shot Wound) is the recorded as the pensionable factor.  Annie Arnot is recorded as in receipt of the pension whilst living at Victor Park Terrace, Corstorphine, Edinburgh.  One card records William as Arnot and the other Arnott.....elsewhere it's mostly Arnot.  One Pension Card shows him as O.B.E. (I still cannot find that in the LG) and the EG shows him with Greek Military Cross (23 July 1919 Issue: 13477 Page: 2481).

A married 2Lt with a wife called Annie ....... MiD (as Lt. LG 28.11.17), OBE and Greek Cross (as Capt. LG 23.07.19)? This does not sound like your typical wartime enlisted 2Lt to me. 

Now it gets interesting with another link ....... the QSA Medal Roll there is a 47 Tpr. W. Arnot of Dennisons Scouts (recorded discharged) with a QSA and four clasps (SA 1901, Cape Colony, Orange Free State, Transvaal).  That explains a lot.....and if it is the man in the photo pushes the date more towards 1910.

Back to your source I think!

Edited 24 September , 2023 by TullochArd

[FROGSMILE]

43 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

Maybe not.......

Great War 2Lt to Capt William Arnot QOCH (identified above) dies some time before 1923 and his widow Annie receives a pension.  (WW1 Pension Register 1914-23).  "GSW" (Gun Shot Wound) is the recorded as the pensionable factor.  Annie Arnot is recorded as in receipt of the pension whilst living at Victor Park Terrace, Corstorphine, Edinburgh.  One card records William as Arnot and the other Arnott.....elsewhere it's mostly Arnot.  One Pension Card shows him as O.B.E. (I still cannot find that in the LG) and the EG shows him with Greek Military Cross (23 July 1919 Issue: 13477 Page: 2481).

A married 2Lt with a wife called Annie ....... MiD (as Lt. LG 28.11.17), OBE and Greek Cross (as Capt. LG 23.07.19)? This does not sound like your typical wartime enlisted 2Lt to me. 

Now it gets interesting with another link ....... the QSA Medal Roll there is a 47 Tpr. W. Arnot of Dennisons Scouts (recorded discharged) with a QSA and four clasps (SA 1901, Cape Colony, Orange Free State, Transvaal).  That explains a lot.....and if it is the man in the photo pushes the date more towards 1910.

Back to your source I think!

Compelling research, that reads like a very strong possibility to me.  The awards are the sort of things a quartermaster might earn.  The Greek Military Cross suggests a Cameron’s unit in Salonika?  The 2nd Battalion fought there from December 1915 until the end of the war.

Edited 21 September , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[TullochArd]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

Compelling research, that reads like a very strong possibility to me.  The awards are the sort of things a quartermaster might earn.  The Greek Military Cross suggests a Cameron’s unit in Salonika?  The 2nd Battalion fought there from December 1915 until the end of the war.

Salonika. Reckon so.  A Dennisons Scouts/QSA possibility accounts for the QOCH/QSA absence - interestingly on the medal roll 47 Tpr. W. Arnot is one of the few Dennisons Scouts not recorded as "deserted" further suggesting a quality bloke.  To me this adds up to a post SA War, QOCH enlistment, with a rapid promotion to 1910-ish which makes 2Lt in the Great War a very serious possibility? 

My nose tells me we are on to something but I'm on the buffer stops - send GWF Brains Trust reinforcements.

 

Edited 21 September , 2023 by TullochArd

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

Salonika. Reckon so.  A Dennisons Scouts/QSA possibility accounts for the QOCH/QSA absence - interestingly on the medal roll 47 Tpr. W. Arnot is one of the few Dennisons Scouts not recorded as "deserted" further suggesting a quality bloke.  To me this adds up to a post SA War, QOCH enlistment, with a rapid promotion to 1910-ish which makes 2Lt in the Great War a very serious possibility? 

My nose tells me we are on to something but I'm on the buffer stops - send GWF Brains Trust reinforcements.

 

Yes, I agree 100% with your rationale.  The likes of @PRC and @Tawhiri (as well as several other forum detectives) might perhaps be able to progress this.

Edited 21 September , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[TullochArd]

LG - "Cam'n Highrs.—The undermentioned 2nd Lts. to be Lts. :— W. Veitch. 19th June 1916. W. Arnot. 23rd July 1916" (10028 SUPPLEMENT 18 OCTOBER, 1916)

LG - "Capt. W. Arnot, O.B.E, h.p. list, retires on ret. pay on account of ill-health caused by wounds. 22nd Oct. 1920." (10185 SUPPLEMENT 21 OCTOBER, 1920)

 

.......... what is "h.p. list"?

 

Edited 21 September , 2023 by TullochArd

[FROGSMILE]

24 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

LG - "Cam'n Highrs.—The undermentioned 2nd Lts. to be Lts. :— W. Veitch. 19th June 1916. W. Arnot. 23rd July 1916" (10028 SUPPLEMENT 18 OCTOBER, 1916)

LG - "Capt. W. Arnot, O.B.E, h.p. list, retires on ret. pay on account of ill-health caused by wounds. 22nd Oct. 1920." (10185 SUPPLEMENT 21 OCTOBER, 1920)

 

.......... what is "h.p. list"?

 

Half Pay, an official euphemism for a type of pension for officers.  It was maintained as a list with limited numbers eligible and still carrying out military duties of a limited type.  He then moved to full retirement pay (i.e. pension).

Edited 21 September , 2023 by FROGSMILE