Lt R T Hardman - 1st July 1916

[CROONAERT]

can anyone confirm whether compressed fibre dog tags actually do survive for 60 years in the mud of the Somme, up until its 1975 "recovery"? Is it unusual for these things to turn up?

EDIT- I'm assuming its fibre...!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes they can survive (but are usually unreadable). Yes, it is unusual to find them.

(It should be fibre - it's not of the aluminium pattern - unless it's a private purchase tag)

Dave.

[CROONAERT]

...and yet another with the "Offr" stamping!!!!

Dave.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

...a typical officer's tag (ignore the scratched on "Essex")...

Dave.

[robbie]

On a hunch I had a look at the other auctions of the seller......low and behold here it is........a RE cap badge dug up in the same location as the whistle and ID tag.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...6523914875&rd=1

And a RE button here:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...6523924455&rd=1

The second entry also appears to have a projectile and some shrapnel balls.  No doubt these are the ones that killed Hardman!  Now we just have to wait for the collar dogs to complete the set I suppose. 

Rgds

Tim D

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The second one above has around 10-12 items. They do look like they've been dug up. It just doesn't seem right to me.

Robbie

[Max]

I'm no expert but the slider on the badge looks in nearly pristine condition.

[Graeme Fisher]

The more that this is debated, the more it sucks.

It's not right, is it?

I may be wrong, but I think this is not genuine or correct, and would suggest that no-one bids.

There was enough suffering at the time, without charlatans tugging at our heartstrings.

Leave well alone, the bloke's a joke.

Graeme

[Blackblue]

Some interesting stuff in already sold items too...tunic...flying helmet...bayonets (wood grips)...photographs. I'm buying out of this one...just figured out who the seller of all this stuff is.

Tim D

[Max]

Hello Tim

If you know who it is give him a nudge and ask him to log on and answer some of our concerns will you? )

Andy

[Mark Hone]

Thanks to all who have contributed. The affair has put me in a dreadful quandary. I don't like the whole set up, from the supposed provenance of the item to the circumstances of its discovery and the numerous other similar items that the vendor is selling. I am not a collector of such things normally, unless they are connected with my own family. Nevertheless. as Ian W. has said there was the fact that it is apparently connected with one of the war dead whom I have researched and will be specifically commemorated on our school battlefields visit to the Somme next year. The seller has refused to deal directly with the school for its purchase, which is of course his prerogative. However, if he is a Forum Pal, which has been suggested, he has kept a very low profile in the discussion about the disk and whistle, which is unfortunate to say the least.

[hmsk212]

In his "other items for sale" he is also splitting a WW2 Defence Medal from a WW1 DCM group, all to the same man.

[ianw]

I would like to thank everyone for their input on this. I now agree that Forum members should have nothing to do with this seller and that if the seller is a Forum member he should consider his position.

[Max Poilu]

I have just found this thread - fascinating stuff. I would like to offer a few observations.

The dog tag (if it is so and not just any old disc) must be a private purchase metal type I believe. If they were not of ferrous metal or all aluminium/zinc they would usually survive quite well. A fibre disc would be gone I am sure, unless preserved in wet clay perhaps?

However, the whole idea of attaching a disc to a whistle is foreign to me. I have never seen this in a picture. The disc would just get in the way. The disc does not look terribly befitting for an officer either, an engraved silver disc would be rather more convincing. I am not convinced by the stamping style either.

Patterns of corrosion are irrelevant, different metals corrode in different ways as the alloyed materials age and seperate.

Where the officer was based on First July is irrelevant, he could have dropped the items at any time.

Given everything we have;

1) To find any one item like this is extremely rare.

2) The style of disc, stamping and attachment to a whistle is just not right.

3) The incredible find of three whistle/tag combinations by one man!!!

4) His history of sales.

5) Go back and look at 3) again.

I really think the whole thing is ---edited ---and I would suggest to Mark that his school forgets the whole thing - it is an unfortunate co-incidence that this seller has chosen a name for his latest money making whizz that is relevant to Pals here.

And it is said the seller is a member of this forum? - if anyone knows please publish his GWF name.

The whole question of ethics on eBay is an odd one. Ebay will pull this or that seemingly on a whim without looking too closely at what they are doing. If it is put to them that the seller is stating human remains were found with the items they may act.

However, I think this is really part of the act - I think the whole sale is a 'put-together', the whistle may have been found on the battlefields as may the 'tag' but the name and combination is, IMHO, ---edited---.

Edited 16 April , 2005 by Chris_Baker

[BeppoSapone]

What a 'can of worms' I seem to have opened!!!

My original post was done because, although I collect identity discs, something did not seem right about picking them up on the Somme. I thought that this might just have been me being a bit 'squeamish' and wondered what others thought.

For the record, I have a number of WW1 discs that belonged to men who were killed in action - sent home by the man when he was issued another disc or sent home to his next-of-kin as a keepsake (I suppose).

I think that I agree with Dave re the marking of WW1 officers discs. I have a fair number, mostly private purchase, and they all give the mans exact rank rather than just "officer".

Dave is also right about the blood group that is on the second disc. I have examples of WW2 Australian and New Zealand tags that give the mans blood group using this strange system of 'O', 'A' etc plus a number. I am not aware that this was done in the British Army in WW2, unless it is the 'luck of the draw'. That those British identity discs I have are from early in the war, when it was not done, and the ANZAC discs are from later in the war when it was. Maybe the Australians and New Zealanders adopted the idea before Britain did?

I have also just been looking at a pair of RNZAF officers issue discs that actually have "Offr" on them. These are WW2 or even post war!

[Mark Hone]

As Ian hints in an earlier post, I have finally decided not to bid for this item. Apart from the very real doubts about provenance I have become more and more disturbed by the evidence accumulating about this seller's activities. It may be that the fears expressed by Pals are groundless and that the whole thing is perfectly genuine, but.... I cannot in all conscience throw into this very muddy water my own money , the school's and that of kind Pals who offered to chip in. I suspect that we have not heard the last of this sort of thing. All in all it has been a very interesting experience , as my dear late Dad said about the Burma Campaign.

[Max]

Hello Mark

Regardless of how upsetting that this must be to you and to the school I think that you have made the right decision.

Andy

[Sgt_Hazell_Great_Grandson]

Looking at his feedback 99.9 i think it seems that if he was palming off fake items he would have been found out by now.He does sell a large amount.

Roland.

Sorry about putting sellers christian name, won`t do it again

[ianw]

I must agree that the point about his high level of positive feeback is well made - but as Andy says this is not conclusive.

I am also aware that a report of this item has been made to Ebay on the basis that he suggests that the items were found with human remains in the additional info he provides to potential bidders. However, it would appear that Ebay have decided that these are not prohibited items.

[Max]

Roland

Could you please not name this man on forum, if he has anything to say I am sure that he will say it.

Ian

Positive feedback really means nothing in cases like this, it may be that the real experts have avoided the items like the plague, difficult to tell.

Andy

[Mark Hone]

I would be interested to hear Pals' views of the exact legal position regarding objects found with human remains. Over the years I have heard rumours about supposedly reputable militaria dealers who have 'looted the dead' and not reported to the authorities that they have discovered human remains. I can think of little more despicable if it were found to be true. The offence is magnified if there was an identity disk or similar with the body. Such a person would be beneath contempt.

[harribobs]

The offence is magnified if there was an identity disk or similar with the body. Such a person would be beneath contempt.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i find it very difficult to think about, most of what we do ( and collect) is to keep their memories alive

to steal from them and leave them in a field???? as you say Mark, beneath contempt

[Max]

As Mark has decided not to bid for this item I can now say that I have reported this man to ebay based on my fears and his assertion that the item was found near human remains. I have also voiced my concern about the authenticity of said item. The reply from ebay was less than helpful

"eBay is not involved in the actual transaction between Buyers and

Sellers. As a result, we have no control over the quality, safety or

legality of the items advertised the truth or accuracy of the listings,

the ability of Sellers to sell items or the ability of Buyers to buy

items. We cannot ensure that a buyer or seller will actually complete a

transaction. "

Seems like a bit of a cop out to me.

Andy

[Max Poilu]

Andy,

Cop-out is an apt description of ebay's attitiude in many of these cases. Ebay policy is utterly inconsistent. I am a big fan and longterm user of ebay but as many will tell you who have had items (wrongly) pulled, they are a law unto themselves.

[7:29am]

---edited---

Jim

Edited 16 April , 2005 by Chris_Baker

[ianw]

Oh that the world's leading authority on Great War dogtags would chance upon this thread and blow away the fog of uncertainty (or thicken it ?!)

As regards Ebay, it would seem that they have had the item reported at least twice to them. They are obviously more worried about saucy foreign films and the like.

[Sgt_Hazell_Great_Grandson]

A couple of examples of WW1 dog tags here www.military-dogtags.com.

[BeppoSapone]

Oh that the world's leading authority on Great War dogtags would chance upon this thread and blow away the fog of uncertainty (or thicken it ?!)

I think that even an average authority on identity discs will tell you that blood groups were not on WW1 discs, and that officers in the British Army did not have numbers in WW1.

Not sure how this helps with the case of Lt Hardman, but one of the other whistle/tag combo's that this seller has sold is, without doubt, a "wrong 'un"