Lt R T Hardman - 1st July 1916

[Chris Boonzaier]

I dont know about schools in England, but having been to school in a number of other countries I get the feeling that they would have very little interest in shelling out the cash, and would have no idea what to do with it if they recieved it as a gift.

I always think our interest group exists in a microcosm and it is always a depressing wake up to realise how little interest the outside world has in our passion.

Same goes for famlies and medals. We consider it sacralidge that they sell them, and they turn around and say "Well, you threw away your Aunt Evas prize for the flower arranging show in Buckarest 1931... whats the difference?"

I never forget rhearing about a WW2 era US Marine who moved heaven and earth to return a centuries old Japanese sword to the family of the soldier he had taken it from. Tradition, honor, blah, blah, blah....

The family was overjoyed !!! And when they found out what it was worth... they sold it.

So much for tradition .....

[ianw]

Chris B - take your point that most schools would not be seeking any such items - but the school in question is a special case with a very well developed interest in the Great war and it's old boys who served in it.

[PhilB]

Nobody seems to have raised any doubts about the provenance of this item. Possibly I`m being unduly suspicious and the whole thing is quite genuine. However, this officer was commissioned in 1914 but has a whistle dated 1916. As I mentioned in a previous post, ID`s attached to whistles are very unusual (It`s the first I`ve seen) and hard to find a reason for. I`d need to have a good look at the chain to see that there are no signs of it having been a recent attachment. Just thought I`d mention it! Phil B

[BeppoSapone]

Phil

How unusual can officers dog tags on whistle chains be?

Here is another that was recently sold on ebay by the same seller:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...me=STRK:MEWA:IT

[ianw]

Quite agree with the questions raised about the provenance of the item. Whistle has to be regarded as possibly the offficers whistle. More doubts about it arise if you have the additional email that the seller sends interested potential bidders. This info appears to say that the items were found in 1997 near Beaumont Hamel while the Ebay entry itself says something different. More importantly it also suggests that the item was found with human remains.

[Mark Hone]

I don't think Jon Armstrong or Chris B are aware of some of the background to this. I am Head of History and Politics at Bury Grammar School, where Robert Hardman was a pupil. I have been taking parties of pupils to the Great War and Second World War battlefields since 1994. The tour is the most popular 'academic' tour run by the school, and sells out within a day of letters being issued. We have increased the size of the tour in recent years to cope with demand. We take boys of all ages , over 75% of them coming on more than one tour. Several boys have now completed 5 tours. The itineraries are specifically based around the experiences of some of the 98 old boys who died in the Great War and 46 in the Second, all of whose details I have researched over the past decade. One of these, 1914 school captain John Hartington is featured on the 'Ordinary Heroes' section of this site. On our tenth anniversary tour in October 1994, we dedicated a memorial plaque to our war dead at St George's Church in Ieper, the cost being met by a special donation from the Parents' Association. Two of our senior pupils have just returned from a marvellous trip to Gallipoli where they visited the graves of the Bury Grammar School boys who died in that campaign. The cost of the trip was offset was offset by a bursary from the Gallipoli Association, whom I would like to thank publicly for their generosity. I hope that you can see from this that we are genuine in our interest in the boys from our school who served in the two World Wars.

We would like to obtain these items. However I only found out about it on Friday evening, and have had very little chance to co-ordinate a response with the school. Likewise there has been no chance to contact any possible relatives of Robert Hardman, whom I agree would be even worthier recipients than us. Unfortunately I have never been contacted by any of his relatives after the appeals I have made for information in the local press or on local radio over the years.

[CROONAERT]

I'd say that it was quite unusual to actually find the whistle itself on a chain, never mind a tag! As has been mentioned , most military whistles were attached to a leather fob which attacched to the breast pocket button, or were on some form of lanyard.

Also, if you look at the tag in the "other" ebay listing as mentioned by Tony, then you'll see that the officer's tag has a service number! Not until 1920, they didn't!!!! It's also stamped "A2". Wasn't this the 2nd AIF (ie. 1939-45 period?)

Another thing I thought odd (and I'm open to correction here), is the fact that both of these officer's tags have the word "offr" for "officer" instead of the rank stamped on. I may be wrong, but I thought that this was a post-war style stamping on British discs (following suit with some continental discs). All of the British officer's discs in my collection have the rank stamped on (ie 2/Lt. , Lt. etc.). That said, I've only ever had a few of these to study, so I'm possibly barking up the wrong tree here.

Dave.

[ianw]

Interesting to get some further input regarding Dave's points about the dogtags.

The main item in question is now north of £200 which would seem to suggest that potential buyers are betting that the items do indeed relate to a 1st July 1916 officer casualty and taking seriously the sellers "evidence" that the items were found with human remains.

[PhilB]

Do I detect a pattern emerging? Phil B

As they say - "If it looks like a duck and quacks, it probably is a duck"!

[7:29am]

Looks well dodgy. Especially the fact that he has sold an almost exact item in the past. The weathering on the items is different as well so could be a bodge of different items he has found. I bet if you put a sample of the attached clays under a microscope they would be different.

Jim

[PhilB]

If he/she is a forum member, perhaps we could have the benefit of their knowledge? Phil B

[Mark Hone]

Notwithstanding the doubts raised about the provenance of this item and the circumstances of its acquisition by the seller I can confirm that the school is interested in purchasing this item. I envisage that it would be put on display, in an apppropriate case, possibly near our Book of Honour. It would also form a focal point for our commemoration of the 90th anniversary of the Battle of the Somme, which will include a full-scale battlefields tour in October half-term 2006 and possibly a smaller trip for senior boys in the summer.

Once again, thank you to all Pals who have offered their assistance in this matter.

[ianw]

Yes, Mark, I think that to recover from obscurity the dogtag of a former pupil who fell on 1st July 1916 would be quite something - a bit like finding the holy grail !

If any Pals feel able to pledge to contribute even a little something to this very worthy cause, please take one step forward.

[PhilB]

Well, well! Here`s a third whistle and dogtag combination sold by the same guy!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...bayphotohosting

Phil B

[CROONAERT]

...and yet another with the "Offr" stamping!!!!

Dave.

[Mark Hone]

-edited---

The location given for the Hardman disk seems about right, something that would have required some research on the part of the person involved.

This has all increased my concern about these items, and I will now seriously consider whether we are going to bid for them. I was willing to overlook the possibility that the whistle might not actually belong to the disk, as long as the disk itself was genuine.

Edited 16 April , 2005 by Chris_Baker

[Max]

Mark

It would require very little research to find out an officer who was killed on the first day of the Somme and the near exact location from battalion war diaries or regimental histories.

I have a couple of real problems with this item, the authenticity of it being the least of my worries. I am sorry to say , that from your point of view, it looks a bit of a duffer to me.

Andy

[PhilB]

Today`s thread "Ebay private listings- bidders ID protected, What`s that about?" has some relevance to the bidding on this item. Phil B

[Max]

Robbie

I am actually more concerned that the whistle and disc are real ---edited--- especially if his claim that the item was found with human remains is correct. In my view, touting items on ebay that may have helped to identify a dead soldiers remains is the lowest of the low.

Andy

Edited 16 April , 2005 by Chris_Baker

[ianw]

Max,

I share your concerns about the potential circumstances of the finding of this item.

However, the fact is that for good or ill , it is on the market and it seems to me that the only practical "damage limitation" we can do is to place the items in the care of the school that this officer attended. I hate the way it is marketed with a frisson associated with the possible presence of human remains.

Of course the authenticity of the item is also important in the context of the school potentially acquiring it. Unfortunately, whilst it has been suggested that the "Offr" lettering on it is anachronistic, no one has come up with a definitive view on this. I really wish some one would !

[SPotter]

Pals,

Excuse my coming very late to this debate and sticking my oar in too, but I would like to make a couple of points:

i) To (mis)quote Ian Fleming from 'Goldfinger', to find one officer's whistle with ID tag is happenstance, to find two is co-incidence, but to find three is ---edited---

ii) The ID Tag in the second lot looks in remarkably good condition, almost 'new' in fact?

iii) i) and ii) combined leave me with deep suspicions and knowing what we now (think) we know I would not touch any of them with a 10-foot barge pole.

I would have no qualms in bringing these items to the attention of eBay, as long as we can indicate what eBay rule or regulation the seller has broken. The fact that we find it abhorrent or distasteful does not in itself preclude the seller from offering the items to the highest bidder if there is someone outthere willing to pay for it. Honestly - how many would have refused these lots if they were in a back-street junk shop and it was a case of buy it now for it may be gone tomorrow? Unless you can prove the items are fraudulently made up to deceive and inflate their value then eBay will probably do nothing.

Regards

Steve

Edited 16 April , 2005 by Chris_Baker

[robbie]

Robbie

I am actually more concerned that the whistle and disc are real and ---edited--- especially if his claim that the item was found with human remains is correct. In my view, touting items on ebay that may have helped to identify a dead soldiers remains is the lowest of the low.

Andy

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Indeed. Surely such actions would ---edited---, wouldn't they?

Edited 16 April , 2005 by Chris_Baker

[Max]

I share your concerns about the potential circumstances of the finding of this item.

However, the fact is that for good or ill , it is on the market and it seems to me that the only practical "damage limitation" we can do is to place the items in the care of the school that this officer attended.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hello Ian

I know exactly where you are coming from and my heart says that you are correct, however, by purchasing items such as this we only encourage these people (and I use the word in its widest sense) to either go out and dig or get to work in their garden sheds.

Robbie

I am not sure what the law is in France regarding digging in fields but I do know that the use of a metal detector is met with draconian penalties, and rightly so. Passing something off as original when it is not is most definately a crime in the UK regardless of caveat emptor.

Andy

[RichardH]

Regarding the authenticity of this item- can anyone confirm whether compressed fibre dog tags actually do survive for 60 years in the mud of the Somme, up until its 1975 "recovery"? Is it unusual for these things to turn up?

EDIT- I'm assuming its fibre...!

[CROONAERT]

This has all increased my concern about these items, and I will now seriously consider whether we are going to bid for them. I was willing to overlook the possibility that the whistle might not actually belong to the disk, as long as the disk itself was genuine.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Mark.

Genuine or not, £200+ for an identity disc (even for a 1st July 1916 casualty), unless it dates from the 1870 -71 war, is far too much!!! I'd leave it if I were you. There must be other ,better, items to remember him by out there somewhere! (eg. spare tunics, caps, paperwork, personal possessions, etc...)

Dave.