Lt R T Hardman - 1st July 1916

[BeppoSapone]

This link will take you to a relic being sold on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...mMakeTrack=true

Here is the CWGC entry for Lt Hardman, who was from Manchester and is on the Thiepval Memorial - no known grave.

http://www.cwgc.org/cwgcinternet/casualty_...casualty=789237

What do people think about this?

Members, I have had to heavily edit this thread to remove words and phrases that may have represented legal risk to the originators and this forum.

Edited 16 April , 2005 by Chris_Baker

[KONDOA]

Forum member i think. They look OK but should not be on Ebay.

[Max]

Forum member or not, I hope that the gentleman in question has amended his ways since unearthing the "relic" in 1975.

Andy

[Mark Hone]

2nd Lt. Robert Taylor Hardman was one of the 98 former pupils of Bury Grammar School who died in the Great War. He was a member of C Section No 1 Mortar Company 5th (Mortar) battalion, Special Brigade RE. On the first day of the Somme No 1 mortar Company was detailed to provide a smoke screen for the attacking infantry at Martinsart near Beaumont Hamel. C section's task was to establish mortar positions on the enemy side of No-Man's land at Zero+30. This was one of the few occasions that men of the RE Special Companies (which were primarily gas warfare units ) were required to join an infantry assault . In the event Hardman and his fellow officer Sutton were killed as soon as they went 'over the top'. The surviving officer, Swann aided by Sgt Potts and Corporal Gavin managed to cross No-Man's land with a couple of mortars and got some way into the trenches, but he only had a few men left and ended up firing a few rounds using a helmet as a base plate. The remaining bombs were thrown into German dug-outs from which they apparently extracted 30 prisoners. Potts and Gavin were awarded the DCM.

The action is described in Richler 'Chemical Soldiers' pp 131-2.

Unfortunately I do not have my photo archive to hand but will post a picture of Hardman as soon as I can.

I am not registered on EBay so would be grateful if a Pal could tell me what 'extra details' the seller provided to the enquirer.

We shall be visiting the scene of Hardman's death on our special Somme anniversary battlefields tour next year. He is one of 12 Bury Grammar School pupils commemorated on Thiepval.

[Derek Robertson]

The question was:

Questions from other buyers for this listing

Q: Hello, can you tell me something more about the circumstances under which the whistle and dog tag are found? Are the royal engineer badge and this whisle somehow conected to each other. Did you perhaps find the missing soldier? The more I know about the circumstances under which the objects are found the more valuable they are to me. Thank you very much. Best regards R** J***** (The Netherlands) Answered on 08-Apr-05

A: HI - If you can let me have your e mail address I will send all relevant info with pictures relating to this item. Thanks

[Mark Hone]

Here is the photo of Lt Hardman. He was a graduate of Manchester University. He was 27 years old and from Rochdale Road in Bury. He was originally commissioned in the King's Own Royal Lancasters. Apologies for the poor quality of the image. For technical reasons I had to use a scan of a photocopy rather than my original digital photograph from the 'Bury Times Book of Honour'.

[shaymen]

He has a few other relics for sale -

seems to have been quite busy with his spade.

[John_Hartley]

Forum member i think. They look OK but should not be on Ebay.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Roop

As you know I'm not a collector so perhaps havn't understood your post. Are you suggesting that selling these items on Ebay is unethical in some way?

John

(PS: Would it be against Ebay ethics if s/he withdrew the item and offered it privately to Mark's school - assuming that the school was interested and , of course, the seller is a Forum member and reading this? It would seem an entirely fitting place for the items to live)

[ianw]

I think this item should certainly reside at the school where it would no doubt be treated with real reverence and inspire students in the Great War studies. Question is how to ensure this result.

[Mark Hone]

The officer killed alongside Hardman was 25-year old Second Lieutenant Cyril John Sutton, originally of the Royal Field Artillery. He is also commemorated on Thiepval. He was the son of John and Sarah Ann Sutton of 'Pittville', 11 Milton Avenue, East Ham, London.

[harribobs]

John

the auction can be stopped by the seller , as for 'ebay ethics' i don't really think they exist!

chris

[ianw]

Unfortunately the seller will not countenance making any special arrangements to allow these items to go to the school.

Somewhat more concerning are the contents of an additional information email which the seller provides to interested Ebay enquirers . This appears to suggest that these items were found with human remains. The seller also attaches copies of correspondence to the CWGC declaring that he found some remains South of Hawthorn Ridge Crater in 1997. It is not clear whether this refers to the items on sale which have an earlier date of finding in the Ebay listing. The CWGC replies that he should report the find to the local french police. I presume that this was either not done or so much later that the remains were not recovered. All in all , the "provenance" is confused.

Interestingly, Mark Hone suggests that the lieutenant was indeed lost in the Beaumont Hamel area. It appears to me that the possibility of giving a missing 1st July casualty a burial may have been missed through pure neglect. The dogtag appears to have done it's designed job , only to turn latterly into a rather sad Ebay item.

The extra information that the seller gives could be accused of appealing to the ghoulish in potential buyers by linking the items to human remains. No doubt this adds "authenticity" in the eyes of some.

Interested to get other's views on this. I understand the seller is possibly a Forum member.

[harribobs]

side steping the ethics issue

should we the readers (or concerned ones) of this thread simply bid for the items and split the cost?

it'a at £50 or there abouts now

chris

[PhilB]

I take it that it is somewhat unusual to see an identity disc attached to a whistle.I also see that the whistle has a chain which is seen more on police than military whistles. The whole idea of the thong or chain was to fasten the whistle to the tunic and attaching an ID seems to defeat this object as well as meaning the ID could more easily become separated from the body. Phil B

[KONDOA]

Quote: Are you suggesting that selling these items on Ebay is unethical in some way?

John.

Personally I think it is unethical to sell this type of stuff on ebay but there again i am perhaps odd in this . I am not a collector either and do not attach a monetary value to such items. However, these articles having been found should be offered to a more responsible home I feel than the "highest bidder". This type of sale tends to encourage a market that unfortuantely already exists.

Roop

PS I may well be incorrect in saying it is a forum member so would not make to big an issue of that. I remain convinced it is though.

[ianw]

Chris - this idea has been kicked around. I suggest you PM Mark Hoon to discuss. I have offered assistance - but the idea of being dragged into a 1st July bidding war for these items is repugnant (IMHO) . Getting them to the school is desirable but I can't help but speculate that they might have been used to actually identify the remains.

[Sgt_Hazell_Great_Grandson]

I would be happy to pay towards getting this item to the school.I am not ebay registered but it might wise to not get a bid in too early as this may encourage a bidding war. Perhaps it might be worth emailing to see if he will end auction early to make sure the item does not go to somebody else.

But count me in !

Roland.

[ianw]

Roland - the seller will not end the bidding early - please see my posting above which also has details of the information pack he emails out to potential ebay bidders.

[Hambo]

Personally I find it all very sad. In his haste to make a quick £50 he may have left a soldier in the field never to be indentified.

I hope it was worth it

[Mark Hone]

Thank you to everyone who has contributed to this thread. I am currently debating how to proceed with the matter. I shall speak to the Headmaster at school tomorrow about the possibility of bidding for the item. It is ironic that this thread came about, the first I can recall about a Bury Grammar school boy not initiated by me, on the very day I discovered that another old boy (Private Clifford Morris) had been accidentally left off our war memorial at the end of the war. Unfortunately as I mention on an earlier posting I have no experience with e-bay, but thank you to everyone who has e-mailed me with suggestions and offers of help. It is much appreciated.

[ianw]

The item is now up to £80. I would not be surprised to see it around £200. I think this may be due to the extra "interest" generated by the seller stating that the item was found with human remains (in the additional email info sent to interested bidders not the on the ebay entry itself).

Interesting to speculate on how Ebay would view the item if the additional info was in the body of the auction entry. Personally, I think it would be pulled.

[Guest geoff501]

Has anyone actually contacted Ebay with a complaint? They do listen.

---edited here ---

I thought this sort of thing was illegal anyway, or does that only apply to munitions? Ironically, otherwise, it would perhaps never have turned up.

Edited 16 April , 2005 by Chris_Baker

[ianw]

Yes Geoff but we are in a bit of a dilemma here. If the item were pulled by Ebay would the school then have a better or worse chance of acquiring it. I suspect it might be the latter.

[jon_armstrong]

I'm not looking to throw cold water on this, but has anyone actually asked the school in question if they want these things? They may have no interest in owning them whatsoever - rather like the thread a little while ago where people talked about things being donated to regimental museums that just went in cupboards (or worse) because they weren't that interested in having them.

Also, if people are concerned with the moral ownership (rather than physical ownership) of these items, don't any surviving members of his family have a rather better claim than a school he once went to, probably over a decade before he was killed?

Jon

[ianw]

Jon - the answer to your question is yes of course the school has been asked and their reply was in the affirmative - which I suppose is hardly surprising as one of the teachers at the school has posted details of the casualty concerned on this thread.

I have no doubt that if living relatives expressed an interest a dialogue would take place. The end result might still well be that the school became custodians of these items. What we really don't want is any chance that the items will be going to a collector of grave goods.