Link request to Naval Medical Service History of 1914-18

[michaeldr]

50 minutes ago, Niko said:

It seems that the hospital with the volunteer nurses was, as mentioned here before, in the 'harmonie' (it's still called that nowadays). it's beautifull restored nowadays: 

Niko,

One of the nurses described the building as follows

Quote:-
“On the Boulevard Leopold a fine building had been placed at our disposal; formerly it was a Duke's Palace, and recently a grammar school.”
[from http://www.gwpda.org/memoir/warnurse/wn1.html]

Is that the one in your photograph?

Edited 27 February , 2023 by michaeldr

[williywonker]

Nico,

What a great photograph. Do you have a source or caption by any chance?

Also there in no doubt/confusion that these two hospitals treated wounded from the RND. I have copies of several letters from Florence Stoney of the Stobart Hospital written in late October 1914 to the Commanding Officer Royal Marines to this effect.

I believe the attached photograph of the Stobart Hospital was taken at the entrance to the building on the Boulevard Leopold? 

Mal

Edited 27 February , 2023 by williywonker

[Niko]

22 minutes ago, michaeldr said:

Niko,

One of the nurses described the building as follows

Quote:-
“On the Boulevard Leopold a fine building had been placed at our disposal; formerly it was a Duke's Palace, and recently a grammar school.”
[from http://www.gwpda.org/memoir/warnurse/wn1.html]

Is that the one in your photograph?

No, that's the Troyantenhof, as mentioned in my earlier tread (the link I just posted).

[Niko]

22 minutes ago, williywonker said:

Nico,

What a great photograph. Do you have a source or caption by any chance?

Also there in no doubt/confusion that these two hospitals treated wounded from the RND. I have copies of several letters from Florence Stoney of the Stobart Hospital written in late October 1914 to the Commanding Officer Royal Marines to this effect.

I believe the attached photograph of the Stobart Hospital was taken at the entrance to the building on the Boulevard Leopold? 

Mal

This picture is clearly taken at the harmoniebuilding, this is now: 

[KizmeRD]

25 minutes ago, williywonker said:

What a great photograph. Do you have a source or caption by any chance?

Judging by the letters IWM in the bottom right corner, its safe to say that it belongs to a collection in the Imperial War Museum in London.

Clearly a group of medical staff from Stobart’s Hospital. 

MB

Edited 27 February , 2023 by KizmeRD

[michaeldr]

7 minutes ago, Niko said:

No, that's the Troyantenhof, as mentioned in my earlier tread (the link I just posted).

Niko,

So just to be clear that I have understood you - The hospital where the surgeon Mr Souttar worked (The First British Field Hospital - Belgium) is shown on your map in the yellow circle and there is no trace of that building today - is that correct?

[Niko]

I stand corrected.

The yellow circle is close to what is now the Boulevard Leopold, and the area of a RND field hospital in the Troyantenhof.

In 1914, the Boulevard Leopold was what is renamed after the war as the Belgiëlei.

And yes, the Belgiëlei joins the Grotesteenweg at Harmonie, so they are clearly talking about the beautiful white building.

[williywonker]

45 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

Judging by the letters IWM in the bottom right corner, its safe to say that it belongs to a collection in the Imperial War Museum in London.

Clearly a group of medical staff from Stobart’s Hospital. 

MB

I was referring to the earlier photograph of the nurse with the wounded on the omnibus.

Yes I was perfectly aware that the photograph in question came from the IWM and is the Stobart hospital as I posted it. It also includes my great aunt. 

Mal

Edited 27 February , 2023 by williywonker

[Niko]

The photo is from an old post card, as far as I know.

[williywonker]

2 minutes ago, Niko said:

The photo is from an old post card, as far as I know.

Any Caption, Niko?

Mal

[Niko]

"1914: London motorbuses with wounded from Antwerp arrive at Ghent"

[KizmeRD]

The photo of the casualties arriving at Ghent are clearly being accompanied by nursing staff from the British Field Hospital. There appears to have been a firm bond established between the two auxiliary hospitals and the RND. Both took in RND casualties and both were able to make use of the 50 RND busses in order to evacuate themselves and get their wounded to safety. Interestingly I couldn’t find the names of any of the British medical staff working in the hospital in Ghent listed for the 1914 medal, although they too were pretty active in caring for battlefield casualties (mostly Belgium army and French Marines though). Ghent was also where the Munro Ambulance Corp were based.

There are quite a few personal accounts written by Antwerp medical staff (some of which have already been referred to earlier in this thread), but also there’s Surgeon Soultar’s dreary book https://archive.org/details/asurgeoninbelgi00soutgoog/mode/1up as well as the ‘Medical women at war’ book which describes Stobart’s hospital pretty well https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1036842/?page=4 as does Ch 3 of Stobart’s ‘Flaming Sword…’ book https://archive.org/details/flamingswordins00stobgoog/page/n32/mode/2up?q=Antwerp. The IWM also keeps a copy of Chief Medical Officer Florence Stoney’s notes and diary of events Sept. 16 to Oct. 14 on the work of the ‘Women’s Imperial Service Hospital’.

MB

Edited 3 March , 2023 by KizmeRD

[michaeldr]

3 hours ago, Niko said:

I stand corrected.

The yellow circle is close to what is now the Boulevard Leopold, and the area of a RND field hospital in the Troyantenhof.

In 1914, the Boulevard Leopold was what is renamed after the war as the Belgiëlei.

And yes, the Belgiëlei joins the Grotesteenweg at Harmonie, so they are clearly talking about the beautiful white building.

Niko; thank you for that explanation

Michael

Edited 27 February , 2023 by michaeldr

[KizmeRD]

According to Dr Soultar’s account, when the hospital (BFH) evacuated from Antwerp, Gen. Paris made some buses available to transport patients to Ghent. There the injured (British & Belge) were dispersed to various local hospitals, but next day when it was clear that Ghent was also likely to be over-run, they regathered the British (RND) contingent and used the buses to drive them to Ostend, ahead of the German advance.

MB

Edited 28 February , 2023 by KizmeRD

[horatio2]

18 hours ago, Niko said:

I stand corrected.

The yellow circle is close to what is now the Boulevard Leopold, and the area of a RND field hospital in the Troyantenhof.

In 1914, the Boulevard Leopold was what is renamed after the war as the Belgiëlei.

And yes, the Belgiëlei joins the Grotesteenweg at Harmonie, so they are clearly talking about the beautiful white building.

I am now content that the Mrs Stobart Hospital was in the Harmonie building - the "Philharmonic Hall" - (Niko's RED RING)

Am I correct that we have now concluded that the Souttar First British Field Hospital, in a house (formerly a "large school")  on the former Boulevard Leopold (Niko's YELLOW LINE), is still unidentified?

Edited 28 February , 2023 by horatio2

[MartH]

To answer your original question about OH's, there was no seperate Naval Medical OH and the one that covers this period is the General History Volume II. That does not refer to any hospital arrangements in Antwerp. The restricted naval staff monographs do not cover any medical operations. Perhaps you are refering to Blue book?

[Niko]

1 hour ago, horatio2 said:

I am now content that the Mrs Stobart Hospital was in the Harmonie building - the "Philharmonic Hall" - (Niko's RED RING)

Am I correct that we have now concluded that the Souttar First British Field Hospital, in a house (formerly a "large school")  on the former Boulevard Leopold (Niko's YELLOW LINE), is still unidentified?

From what I found out, there was a British field Hospital of 180 beds in de rue Napoleon.... but I cannot find this street anywhere in Antwerp!

[michaeldr]

Like Niko [and contrary to the source which I quoted earlier referring to the BFH being in the Boulevard Leopold] Dr Mabel Ramsey of  Mrs St Clair Stobart's  hospital refers to 
“Nearby us was the British Field Hospital (180 beds) in the Rue Napoleon, officered by two men and three women doctors, i.e. Dr. Laura Foster, Dr. Benham and Dr. Moberley. They were established in a school a week or so before we came."
[from http://www.scarletfinders.co.uk/165.html]

[horatio2]

37 minutes ago, Niko said:

rue Napoleon.... but I cannot find this street anywhere in Antwerp!

How did the little emperor get into this!? Here is Surgeon Souttar's description of his BFH:-

"The Boulevard Leopold is a magnificent avenue with a wide roadway in the centre flanked by broad paths planted with trees. Beyond these again, on each side is a paved road with a tram-line, whilst a wide pavement runs along the houses. ... Our hospital occupied one of the largest houses on the south-east side. ... We had in all 150 beds, and a staff of about 50."

Dr Ramsey (quoted by @michaeldr) may be less accurate than Souttar (who was a member of the BFH staff) - perhaps to the extent of muddling her French emperors and Belgian kings. At least she confirms the BFH was in a school and "nearby" to her Harmonie/Philharmonic hospital. The Boulevard Leopold was only, by my Google Maps reckoning, about 1 kilometer long, so qualified as "nearby".

Edited 28 February , 2023 by horatio2

[michaeldr]

 

28 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

Dr Ramsey (quoted by @michaeldr) may be less accurate than Souttar (who was a member of the BFH staff) - perhaps to the extent of muddling her French emperors and Belgian kings. At least she confirms the BFH was in a school and "nearby" to her Harmonie/Philharmonic hospital. The Boulevard Leopold was only, by my Google Maps reckoning, about 1 kilometer long, so qualified as "nearby".

That too could be true

 

[Niko]

My opinion too, a mixup between 'Napoleon´ and 'Leopold'.

Your map is interesting, but needs to be turned 90° counter clockwise.

Here is an old postcard, taken from about the southwest corner (eg close to the Harmonie Parc) looking towards the Northeast. So, the building should be one of these on the right.

[michaeldr]

8 minutes ago, Niko said:

Your map is interesting, but needs to be turned 90° counter clockwise.

[Niko]

Correct!

Every now and then, we have these interesting topics.

You guys and gals should all come over and have a forum meet here.... this might become interesting!

[KizmeRD]

Surgeon Souttar described it in these terms…

The Boulevard Leopold is a magnificent avenue with a wide roadway in the centre flanked by broad paths planted with trees. Beyond these again, on each side is a paved road with a tramline, whilst a wide pavement runs along the houses… our hospital occupied one of the largest houses on the south-east side. A huge doorway led into an outer hall through which the garden was directly reached behind the house. On the right- hand side of this outer hall a wide flight of steps led to inner glass doors and the great central hall of the building. As a private house it must have been magnificent, as a hospital it was as spacious and airy as one could desire…. The hall was paved with marble, and on either side opened lofty reception rooms, whilst in front wide marble staircases led to the first floor. This first floor and another above it were occupied entirely by wards, each containing from six to twelve beds. On the ground floor on the right-hand side were two large wards, really magnificent rooms, and one smaller, all these overlooking the Boulevard. On the left were the office, the common room, and the operating theatre. Behind the house was a large paved courtyard, flanked on the right by a garden border and on the left by a wide glass-roofed corridor. The house had previously been used as a school, and on the opposite side of the courtyard was the gymnasium, with dormitories above. The gymnasium furnished our dining-hall, whilst several of the staff slept in the rooms above… It will be seen that the building was in many ways well adapted to the needs of a hospital and to the accommodation of the large staff required. We had in all 160 150 beds, and a staff of about 60 50. The latter included 8 doctors, 20 nurses, 6 dressers, lay assistants, and motor drivers. In addition to these there was a kitchen staff of Belgians, so that the management of the whole was quite a large undertaking, especially in a town where ordinary provisions were becoming more and more difficult to obtain.

MB

 

Edited 28 February , 2023 by KizmeRD

[horatio2]

1 minute ago, KizmeRD said:

We had in all 160 beds, and a staff of about 60.

A mis-transcription of the orignal which reads 150 and 50.