Link request to Naval Medical Service History of 1914-18

[williywonker]

Some time ago I managed to locate an online access to the Official Naval Medical Services History of the Great War. Sadly I've lost the link and I wondered if any member can assist me in retrieving it?

Mal

[MaureenE]

I have not heard of such a title at all, let alone an online version, in respect of the Great War, although there are some volumes for the Second World War.  Do you have more details?

Maureen

[KizmeRD]

Perhaps you are thinking of the Journal of the Royal Naval Medical Service, which together with a lot of other stuff, also has a lot of interesting historical content?.

https://archive.org/search?query=JRNMS

MB

[domwalsh]

7 hours ago, williywonker said:

Some time ago I managed to locate an online access to the Official Naval Medical Services History of the Great War. Sadly I've lost the link and I wondered if any member can assist me in retrieving it?

Mal

SeaJane is the expert on all things naval medicine

[williywonker]

Many thanks for your replies.

I'm completely confused. What I am trying to find is an OFFICIAL reference to the two auxiliary hospitals annexed by the RND at Antwerp (Stobart and BFH). Gaskell's Medical Unit History of the Royal Naval Division makes no reference to them but I definitely recall seeing a reference to 'two local hospitals' (no names) in an official Naval history. I'm carrying out some research and ideally need an official reference source. I'm aware of the 1914 Star rolls that list them but no actual commentary.

Mal

Edited 24 February , 2023 by williywonker
grammar

[horatio2]

I would be interestd to know details of the RND taking over hospitals in Antwerp. I can find no record of this and am sceptical of its happening.

The Antwerp medical arrangements for the RND were ad hoc and pre-dated the formation of the RND's  Royal Marines Medical Unit (RMMU), which began in November 1914. At Antwerp each RND battalion had its own MO and their medics comprised RM Infirmary Staffs, reservists and men of the RNASBR (ex-St John Ambulance). I think it highly unlikely that the RND medical personnel would have been able to man two hospitals as ell as the battalion aid posts and RND dressing stations.

There is a brief reference to a local hospital in the diary of the MO of Benbow Bn: he records "sending a man with cellulitis into a private hospital in Wilrijk." on 6 June, just after arrival in Antwerp.

That said, Mrs Stobart & Co. were certainly at Antwerp at the invitation of the Belgian Red CRoss but they were not under command of the RND. In fact the Stobart team were at Antwerp long before the bulk of the RND arrived on 6 October.  The following link makes mention (22 Sep 1914) of "our proposed hospital, i.e. L’Harmonie, Local D’Ete, Chaussée de Malines, Anvers."    -   http://www.scarletfinders.co.uk/165.html

This was a Belgian Red Cross + WOMEN'S IMPERIAL SERVICE operation and it was not linked to the RND at Antwerp.

 

Edited 24 February , 2023 by horatio2

[horatio2]

The following link confirms that the British Field Hospital also had nothing to do with the RND   It also notes that they were asked to "set up a  hospital in a large school in Antwerp"   -   https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1036842/pdf/medhist00039-0044.pdf     See p.5 (164)

It also states (p.4/163) that the Stobart team "... arrived in Antwerp on 20 September, and were given the Philharmonic Hall ('a great building with an enormous glass roof') for their hospital. They quickly converted it, receiving their first fifty patients two days later."

Edited 24 February , 2023 by horatio2

[johntaylor]

 

There is a History of the Medical Unit of the Royal Naval Division in the Journal of the Naval Medical Service (JNMRS), available on archive.org:

Volume 11 (1925) pages 193-208, 275-291 https://archive.org/details/JRNMSVOL11Images

Volume 12 (1926): pages 36-57, 121-140, 219-227, 288-309 https://archive.org/details/JRNMSVOL12Images

I'm not sure if that's the source of your original information.

John

 

[KizmeRD]

The Auxiliary Hospital set up by St. Clair Stobbart’s team (working under the auspices of the Belgium Red Cross) did in fact treat about a dozen injured British marines.
Fleet Surgeon E.J. Finch and Temp. Surgeon C.A. Anderson paid a temporary visit to the hospital on 7th October 1914.  
And the nurses also made good their escape from Antwerp using the very same buses that had transported  the marines in - but there was no link with what the British nurses were doing and what the RND were up to, they were simply in the same place at the same time.

MB

[williywonker]

Many thanks for all your comments. The two hospitals were most definitely annexed by the RND and both units are included in the Admiralty 1914 Star Rolls as Auxiliary Hospitals. Prior to the arrival of the RND both hospitals were already well established with funding from the BRX and Order of St John and were treating Belgian wounded.  Neither hospital was an actual unit of the RND, but were simply annexed for a few days to treat the more severely wounded. Their claim for the 1914 Star was refused by the War Office but approved by the Admiralty.

Mal

Edited 24 February , 2023 by williywonker
Grammar

[horatio2]

1 hour ago, KizmeRD said:

Fleet Surgeon E.J. Finch and Temp. Surgeon C.A. Anderson paid a temporary visit to the hospital on 7th October 1914.  

Very interesting. Where does that nugget come from? The only problem I have is that Temp Surgeon Charles Alexander ANDERSON RN was not commissioned until 27 November 1914. He is, therefore, not on the 1914 Star roll = not at Antwerp.

Am I off-target? Or was it actually Temp Surgeon Henry G Anderson RN, serving with No.3 Squadron RNAS at Antwerp (1914 Star and Clasp)?

Edited 24 February , 2023 by horatio2

[KizmeRD]

Your right of course - I got the initials mixed up and it could only have been Henry G Anderson (not Charles A. Anderson).

Reference to the ‘visit’ comes from an account written by one of the female doctors of the Women’s Imperial Service Hospital - Mabel Ramsay (daughter of a naval officer).

http://www.scarletfinders.co.uk/165.html

MB

Edited 24 February , 2023 by KizmeRD

[williywonker]

3 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

Your right of course - I got the initials mixed up and it could only have been Henry G Anderson (not Charles A. Anderson).

Reference to the ‘visit’ comes from an account written by one of the female doctors of the Women’s Imperial Service Hospital - Mabel Ramsay (daughter of a naval officer).

http://www.scarletfinders.co.uk/165.html

MB

The Women's Imperial Hospital was the Stobart hospital which had been established with funds from the Women's Imperial Service League

Mal

[KizmeRD]

5 minutes ago, williywonker said:

The Women's Imperial Hospital was the Stobart hospital which had been established with funds from the Women's Imperial Service League

Mal

Correct! (Mabel St. Clair Stobbart - the Lady who brought the nursing team over from London).

 

 

Edited 24 February , 2023 by KizmeRD

[williywonker]

1 hour ago, johntaylor said:

 

There is a History of the Medical Unit of the Royal Naval Division in the Journal of the Naval Medical Service (JNMRS), available on archive.org:

Volume 11 (1925) pages 193-208, 275-291 https://archive.org/details/JRNMSVOL11Images

Volume 12 (1926): pages 36-57, 121-140, 219-227, 288-309 https://archive.org/details/JRNMSVOL12Images

I'm not sure if that's the source of your original information.

John

 

Hi John,

Thank you for the links. This account by Gaskell is the one I referred to in my first post, but he makes no mention of either hospital.

Mal

[williywonker]

4 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

Correct! (Mabel St. Clair Stobbart - the Lady who brought the nursing team over from London).

 

 

She is recorded in the Admiralty 1914 Star Roll as Administrator and Organiser of the Stobart Auxiliary Hospital, Antwerp; one of twenty-six staff who are also listed.

The British Field Hospital lists forty-seven staff. 

The 1914 Stars for both units are stamped 'Auxiliary Hospital Unit - Antwerp'

Mal

[KizmeRD]

38 minutes ago, williywonker said:

 

The British Field Hospital lists forty-seven staff. 

 

I think you mean the BELGIUM Field Hospital, located in the Grammar School on Boulevard Leopold, and staffed as follows:

4/5 male doctors

4 lady doctors

3 medical students

9 nurses

3/4 gentlemen chauffeurs

3/4 lay helpers

4 lady ‘farmers’ (not making this up!, they came complete with wagon and horses)

Total  around 33 British staff, supplemented by a number of Belgium adult volunteers as well as boy scouts,

Ref. ‘A war nurse’s diary’ http://www.gwpda.org/memoir/warnurse/wn1.html

MB

 

 

Nine nurses in flowing violet cloaks and sky blue dresses, with a red cross shield.

 

Edited 24 February , 2023 by KizmeRD

[williywonker]

7 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

I think you mean the BELGIUM Field Hospital, located in the Grammar School on Boulevard Leopold, and staffed as follows:

4/5 male doctors

4 lady doctors

3 medical students

9 nurses

3/4 gentlemen chauffeurs

3/4 lay helpers

4 lady ‘farmers’ (not making this up!, they came complete with wagon and horses)

Total  around 33 British staff, supplemented by a number of Belgium adult volunteers as well as boy scouts,

Ref. ‘A war nurse’s diary’ http://www.gwpda.org/memoir/warnurse/wn1.html

MB

 

 

Nine nurses in flowing violet cloaks and sky blue dresses, with a red cross shield.

 

It is listed in the Admiralty 1914 Star roll as 'The First British Field Hospital - Belgium' but is also noted in contemporary accounts as the 'Belgian Field Hospital'.

Mal

[horatio2]

17 hours ago, KizmeRD said:

Your right of course - I got the initials mixed up and it could only have been Henry G Anderson (not Charles A. Anderson).

Reference to the ‘visit’ comes from an account written by one of the female doctors of the Women’s Imperial Service Hospital - Mabel Ramsay (daughter of a naval officer).

http://www.scarletfinders.co.uk/165.html

In his "Fights and Flights" Charles SAMSON, CO 3 Sqn RNAS, notes (p.97)

" Staff Surgeon [Hardy V.]Wells [RN] and Surgeon [Henry] Graeme Anderson [RN], two of my doctors, did splendid work organising a casualty clearing station and attebnding to the wounded, both British and Belgian. [Petty Officer William Henry] Dean [F.157 RNAS], who derove their ambulance, deserved every credit for the way he constantly went up and down the Lierre Road under heavy shell-fire."

On th evening of 6 October at Antwerp, the MO Benbow Bn recorded:

"I walked up again to the firing line.  Things were much quieter.  In fact, except for an occasional heavy gun, everything was quiet and peaceful.  Just behind the trenches I saw a house with a motor ambulance outside.  I went in and found four naval surgeons having supper.  They were attached to the Marines and had been in heavy fighting for over two days.  Their scheme was to have their first aid men (sixty or eighty sick berth attendants RN) posted in the trenches.  These men applied first field dressing and, in lulls of the firing, brought the wounded out to the house where the surgeons saw them and dispatched them in motor ambulances to Antwerp.  They were surprised to hear of our inadequate first aid resources and especially of our entire absence of motor transport.  I decided to establish myself with them."

These MOs were probably the 3 Sqn RNAS team who had been helping the RM Brigade at Lierre for several days. It seems pretty clear that the RND medical resources were totally inadequate to "annex" (= take over) other hospital facilities. It seems theycould contribute nothing but first aid and evacuation of RND wounded who then used whatever Antwerp hospitals were available.

[KizmeRD]

Yes, absolutely no question of the RND ‘annexing’ anything (whatever that means in a military context), they were simply lucky enough to have two auxiliary hospitals on the doorstep able to take in a few of their injured, and they took advantage of it.

MB

 

[michaeldr]

On 24/02/2023 at 20:21, williywonker said:

It is listed in the Admiralty 1914 Star roll as 'The First British Field Hospital - Belgium' but is also noted in contemporary accounts as the 'Belgian Field Hospital'.

See A Field Hospital In Belgium, by Dr J Hartnell Beavis & H S Souttar FRCS, The British Medical Journal Vol. 1, No. 2819 (Jan. 9, 1915), pp. 64-66

“The British Field Hospital for Belgium began its work in Antwerp with a well-equipped hospital of 150 beds and a staff of 8 doctors, 20 nurses, and 5 dressers. In five weeks 500 Belgians and 70 British were admitted to its wards, in addition to a large number of slighter cases treated and sent on to other hospitals. On October 8th, 1914, in view of the German occupation, the hospital had to leave Antwerp. We retired, however, in good order, bringing with us, on seven motor busses, all our wounded (73 Belgian and 40 British), all our staff of 40, and practically our entire equipment”

Edited 26 February , 2023 by michaeldr
correct spelling of the name, Souttar

[KizmeRD]

Having done some further reading, it would appear that the ‘British Field Hospital for Belgium’ only became a fully recognised Belgium Military Hospital after its relocation to Hoogstade at the start of 1915 (following its earlier evacuation from Antwerp to Furnes). Command then passed to Belgian Surgeon Major Charles Willems.

MB

[horatio2]

1 hour ago, williywonker said:

they were both clearly ‘on the establishment’ of the RND, otherwise their personnel would not have qualified for the 1914 Star.

This statement is plainly incorrect. Neither hospital unit had anything to do with the RND command (save for handling some of the RND wounded). Indeed, they are but two of several units/formations listed on the Admiralty 1914 StarRoll which were, likewise, NON-RND, e.g. Armoured Cars, Armoured Trains, Machine Gun Parties (landed from HM ships), Transport Staff (at French ports) and RNAS to name another five. Presence on the Admiralty Star Roll does not automatically link a unit to the RND, nor does presence at Antwerp

 

Edited 25 February , 2023 by horatio2

[horatio2]

1 hour ago, williywonker said:

Paragraph 5 of the Army Order gives the qualification requirements for the 1914 Star as; 'Nursing Sisters, Nurses and others employed with Military Hospitals who actually served in France or Belgium, ON THE ESTABLISMENT OF A UNIT OF THE BRITISH EXPEDITIONARY FORCE’. There is therefore no doubt that these two hospitals were on the establishment of the RND (whether annexed or not).

Non sequitur.  I would rather say "There is no doubt that these two hospitals were units of the BEF". The justification for these hospitals appearing on the Admiralty Roll remains unclear but the RND is not the link.

[horatio2]

On 24/02/2023 at 18:36, williywonker said:

Neither hospital was an actual unit of the RND

Quite so. Not on the RND establishment then.