Link request to Naval Medical Service History of 1914-18

[KizmeRD]

1914 STAR — In 1917 the grant of the 1914 Star was approved by His Majesty for award to all those officers and men of the British and Indian Expeditionary Forces, including civilian medical practitioners, nursing sisters, nurses and others employed with military hospitals, who actually served in France or Belgium on the establishment of a unit between 5 August, 1914, and midnight on 22-23 November, 1914. Also including officers and men of the Royal Navy, Royal Marines, Royal Naval Reserve and Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve who served on the establishment of a unit landed for shore service.

MB

 

[williywonker]

Gentlemen, I really appreciate your comments and on reflection can understand the point you are making, which is that the RND was but one element of the Naval Force at Antwerp. The two hospitals concerned were available to nurse the wounded of all units that took part in the operations and not just the RND. Perhaps, therefore, it is more accurate to state that both hospitals were temporarily attached or utilised by the Naval Force as a whole rather than the RND.

It is certainly the case that neither hospital was a unit of the BEF otherwise the War Office would not have refused their claim for the 1914 Star. Since it was the Admiralty that approved their claim, it is perhaps more accurate to state that they were ‘on the establishment of a unit of the Naval Forces at Antwerp’

Many thanks for your contributions.

Mal

[michaeldr]

It would perhaps be revealing to examine ADM1/8509/269 to see if therein lies the explanation as to how the medals for this hospital unit came to be the responsibility of the Admiralty.

Page 3 of Fever & Wilson's book explains that they have provided only "a selection of transcribed documents contained in the Admiralty file...."

Further research is required here.

[KizmeRD]

Seeing as there is no evidence in official records, contemporary accounts, or published histories that the two auxiliary hospitals based in Antwerp during September and October 1914 were ever ‘temporarily attached’ to the RND, I think we can safely rule out that particular explanation. But since there were only two issuing authorities for the 1914 Star (either the War Office, or the Admiralty), it makes sense that civilian medical staff caught up in the defence of Antwerp should have their medal entitlements processed by the Admiralty - given that the process of verification would have been so much easier, bearing in mind the Royal Naval Division’s substantial presence there at the time. In any case, the War Office would have been kept busy enough dealing with it’s own BEF entitlements.

MB

[horatio2]

I consider that the @KizmeRDexplanation of the inclusion of the hospitals and other non-RND units in the Admiralty Star Roll is the simplest and, therefore, the most likely.

Importantly, it does not rely on spurious "annexations" and "attachments" and the wishing into existence of helpful, but implausible RND-commanded Naval hospital units.

Given the conspicuous absence of the army at Antwerp, it was entirely reasonable that the Admiralty (Accountant General) should pull together the RN list, including the various non-RN qualifiers.

Edited 26 February , 2023 by horatio2

[michaeldr]

4 hours ago, michaeldr said:

It would perhaps be revealing to examine ADM1/8509/269 to see if therein lies the explanation as to how the medals for this hospital unit came to be the responsibility of the Admiralty.

Has anyone seen this particular file or know of its whereabouts? The NA's Discovery has not been very helpful

Edited 26 February , 2023 by michaeldr

[KizmeRD]

I couldn’t locate a downloadable copy of ADM1/8509/269, but there’s a three volume handwritten index to the 1914 Star…

Catalogue reference: ADM 171/139

MB

[michaeldr]

MB

Thanks for your suggestion 
alas it is the same info as we already have from p.185 of F & W's book

[KizmeRD]

F&W’s book also contains a lot of correspondence relating to the extensive lobbying that went on in order to broaden the list of those entitled to the medal (originally intended only for army members of the BEF).

MB

[horatio2]

28 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

 ADM1/8509/269

That should read ADM 1/8506/269  -  https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4781150

The Army Order described there is in the F&W book (p.239)

[michaeldr]

You're could well be correct there H2, and F&W's transcription of that ref on their p.3 may have inverted a six into a nine

....................................

Mr Souttar's account of his work with the hospital can be seen here https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/11086/pg11086-images.html

 

[horatio2]

20 minutes ago, michaeldr said:

ref on their p.3 may have inverted a six into a nine

So they did - but they got it right on p.215 - "Creation of a Star".

[KizmeRD]

From all that has gone on in continuation of this thread, I think it is now becoming clear that whereas the two auxiliary hospital units located in Antwerp during the siege were never formally ‘annexed’, ‘commandeered’ or temporarily brought under the command and control of the RND, they nevertheless provided valuable voluntary assistance to the Division in taking in, treating and eventually evacuating some of the more seriously injured marines and blue jackets (all while under German bombardment). When the medal entitlement criteria finally did get extended to include persons other than BEF soldiers (after extensive lobbying, not least from Commandant Royal Marines and some other prominent members of elite society), the civilian medical staff in Antwerp were included in the medal list in recognition of their brave efforts in assisting their fellow countrymen. Auxiliary hospital staff didn’t however qualify for the subsequent award of the Clasp. Also interesting is that First/Second/Third & Forth Sea Lords weren’t initially in favour of allowing naval members any entitlement to the medal - for fear of causing jealousy in the fleet.

MB

Edited 26 February , 2023 by KizmeRD

[horatio2]

28 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

Auxiliary hospital staff didn’t however qualify for the subsequent award of the Clasp

Given their situation under the German bombardment of Antwerp on 7/8 October, it seems that they "served under the fire of the enemy". Five claims for the Clasp are noted as "refused" but, oddly, Mr JH Secker, a BFH dresser, was issued with the only Clasp in 1922.

I wonder if any other claims were made.

Edited 26 February , 2023 by horatio2

[KizmeRD]

1 hour ago, horatio2 said:

 Mr JH Secker, a BFH dresser, was issued with the only Clasp in 1922.

He went on to become Capt, JH Secker RAF with a MiD 18.4.18.

Medal group below…

MB

[williywonker]

I have already made arrangements for file ADM I /8506 to be copied and will report back in due course. As for the Clasp to the 1914 Star (and without wishing to promote another fiercely contested point of principle) I can state that non-combatants including members of all hospitals were ineligible for its grant.

Mr. J. H. Secker was a civilian dresser with the BFH and the only member from both auxiliary hospitals to be awarded the Clasp. Secker was later commissioned into the RND and attached to the RAF; his claim for the Clasp being granted not for his service with the hospital, but retrospectively on account of his subsequent service with a ‘DULY AUTHORISED UNIT OF THE BEF’; namely the RND. These principles are confirmed in the 1914 Star Decision Books.

Their Lordships resistance to the 1914 Star is well documented in the War Office 1914 Star Case Files; some, but not all the correspondence being included in Fevyer and Wilson's book. The MOD files demonstrate that the Admiralty's unwillingness to embrace the 1914 Star went far deeper than mere jealousy.

Mal

Edited 26 February , 2023 by williywonker

[horatio2]

13 minutes ago, williywonker said:

Secker was later commissioned into the RND

Really? As what? Where - did he go to Gallipoli? He was not commissioned RN, RM, RNR or RNVR. More details. please.

See also  =  https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1128783  (RFC Special Reserve) and  https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8224715  (RFC and RAF).

More here  -  https://www.bonhams.com/auction/20810/lot/255/four-to-captain-jhsecker-royal-air-force-late-auxiliary-hospital-unit-antwerp/

Spot the RND entry.

[williywonker]

Apologies H2, my reply was written in haste as rushing to catch my train back home. He was commissioned into the RAF not the RND

Mal

 

[horatio2]

It would seem that his much later RFC (SR) and RAF service (which fall outside the 1914 Star dates) could bnot have under-pinned a retrospective Clasp award "on account of his subsequent service with a ‘DULY AUTHORISED UNIT OF THE BEF"; namely the RFC (SR)/RAF.  

His 1922 Clasp award remains a puzzling out-lier.  Perhaps a (very) late claim from an RAF officer had unwarranted credibility eight years after the event.

Edited 26 February , 2023 by horatio2

[michaeldr]

1 hour ago, williywonker said:

I have already made arrangements for file ADM I /8506 to be copied and will report back in due course.

Thanks WW: that'll be most helpful. Looking forward to hearing the full story 

 

[KizmeRD]

According to the (Admiralty) 1914 medal register “No Auxiliary Hospital personnel are entitled to a 1914 Medal Clasp (ref. NP II 1820/20)”

Can anyone point us in the direction of the above NP reference?

MB

 

[horatio2]

9 hours ago, williywonker said:

Right....I'm off for a pint...

Well-deserved after that detailed explanation, which I found very helpful. Thank you taking the time to lay out the background detail. It is evident that the 'KISS Principle' (Keep It Simple, Stupid) was not applied as competing opinions battled over the Stars.

This has been a very interesting topic.

[KizmeRD]

That’s an intriguing and interesting story Mal, and I for one, didn't entirely appreciate the extent of all the kerfuffle that the introduction of the medal created - and which dragged on for such a long period of time. I am as yet however, unconvinced regarding the personal involvement of the King in the process (although the convention is that all service medals are the gracious gift of the Sovereign). From the little I know, these things are generally the progeny of committees. We ought also try and confine this particular discussion to naval matters, and not get blown off course with the wider issues (although to do the topic justice, you might want to start a separate thread on the main ‘Soldiers’ or ‘Medals’ medals sub-forum. You might also want to consider either making an alteration to the heading of this thread, or else add some tags (like ‘1914 Star’, ‘Antwerp’, and ‘Auxiliary Hospitals’).

From what I’ve seen the initial idea was for the 1914 Star to be an army only issue to members of the BEF, to honour the passing of the old professional army that headed off to the Continent at the very start of the war. The navy initially wasn’t supportive of the notion that the award of the 1914 Star might be medal be extended to include any of their chaps - for fear of opening up a can of worms that would likely create jealousy and resentment on the part of those whose equally valuable contribution wouldn’t have met the award criteria. The problem of who gets recognised and who doesn’t also lead to considerable indignation from Australians and other Dominions who thought that those who fought at Gallipoli should also be honoured (and from Churchill who wanted the entire Royal Navy to have the medal entitlement too). In the end, the 1914-15 Star had to be created in order to appease the dissenters. The Cabinet Office appears to have dedicated an awful amount of time on discussing and arguing the matter, when they might have been better employed with higher priority war issues.

For those still interested, there are two interesting documents available to download from the TNA that offer us a good appreciation of the trouble that these demands for expansion of the award criteria caused, one written by Eric Geddes and the other from Winston Churchill (CAB-24-63-93 & CAB-24-63-14).

MB

 

 

Edited 27 February , 2023 by KizmeRD

[williywonker]

I'll report back after I've read over the Admiralty Case File.

In the meantime, and keeping on the Antwerp thread, can any member hazard a guess as to who's medal group this is? 

Mal

Edited 27 February , 2023 by williywonker

[Niko]

Here is a link to one of my treads, about Antwerp, with some info on the medical posts used by the RND: 

It seems that the hospital with the volunteer nurses was, as mentioned here before, in the 'harmonie' (it's still called that nowadays). it's beautifull restored nowadays: 

Moreover, it is very close to the linoleum factory, taken over by the RND as depot. The red circle on this map is  the harmoniepark and building, the green circle is the area of the linoleum factory:

and to make things a little more confusing, here you see nurses and wounded ratings unloading a bus coming from Antwerp. Picture is taken at the station of Ghent, so it is pretty clear that indeed at least some of the RND wounded were evacuated to one of the hospitals staffed partially by British nurses: 

 

Edited 27 February , 2023 by Niko