PILL BOX THE BARNOCLE

[Lorre]

I have written an article for the Belgian WFA about names on trench maps. A lot of the names in the area are indeed named after rivers: Seine, Marne etc. The name Tyne Cot appears before the bunkers were even there if I'm not mistaken.

I made myself a member now of the WFA.

Can You please tell me how to find that article please?

[TullochArd]

Lorre asked "And the name Tyne Cot is not from Tyne Cottage but named after the river Tyne?"

Tyne Cot/Tyne Cott ........ the popular theories are named by the Northumberland Fusiliers after Tyne type cottages or in line with a 'River' labelling theory on adjacent trench maps?  

There is the third theory. 

This earlier GWF thread presents the credible possibility, and provides some evidence, that "Tyne Cot (Tyne Cot./Tyne Cott./Tyne Cottage) was definately a pre-war building (farm/house/cottage)".  Croonaert's (RIP) comments are succinct ........ "The 50th (Northumbrian) Division actually named the cemetery "Tyne Cot" (the original bit behind the cross of sacrifice) in 1917 after a nearby feature (farmhouse) that had already been named as such. They didn't actually name the building."  

I would like to see this on a pre-war map, which I have been unable to locate yet, but if so validated it would confirm the name well pre-dates the Pill Boxes as Lorre points out.

Tyne Cot - Page 2 - Cemeteries and memorials - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org)

 

Edited 11 July , 2022 by TullochArd

[mebu]

There have also been other theories about the origin of the name, which have been discounted by historians.

The most complete and thorough research was carried out by local historians Franky Bostyn and colleagues, who list the pre-war farmers and families around the Spilstraat (now Tynecotstraat) and Vijfwegenstraat junction area. It is noted that there were no buildings on the present cemetery site. All relevant infantry and Engineer diaries were consulted along with other local archaeology records.

(see Passchendaele 1917, the Fallen and Tyne Cot Cemetery, published with support from the Flemish authorities).

The conclusion is - forget the Northumbrians, and any damaged farm signs. As posted by myself and Jan above, who have also looked deeply into archives and records, and examined the other theories, just think of the river names in the area.

 

 

[Lorre]

Thank You all for Your Replies!

Nice to see that people with the same interest are helping each other out!

Brilliant group!

[jay dubaya]

I can’t locate the primary source at present, but I’m sure I’ve read that TYNE COTT was the name given to a barn on  the Ypres/Roulers railway near Dash Crossing and I believe this is accepted as fact. Having believed for some years Tyne Cott was named by the Northumberland Fusiliers because of the resemblance to workers cottages back home, I can now see and understand why this is not so and can be easily dismissed, the tale has been repeated so many times it’s become almost gospel.

The naming of other structures in the area with river names is considerably more plausible and likely to be the true source of the name which appeared on maps long before the concrete bunkers arrived. A map corrected to 16^th March 1916 shows the area devoid of annotated additions and clearly marks Tyne Cott and the structures in the vicinity of Dash Crossing. 

Information gathered from the linked threads bears this out and offers a source to the specific origins of the name Tyne Cott itself and a Farmer named ‘LAMMERTYN’. This Farmer painted his name on his barn, later damaged and appears as just ‘TYN’, it wouldn’t need a lot to make this into a legible English word for naming features on a map. This may then suggest that the name ‘TYNE’ was attributed before MARNE, SEINE, THAMES etc which followed on with the theme of river names for particular structures. It would seem appropriate that a Northumberland unit named the original wartime burial ground as Tyne Cot after this ‘homely’ nearby named structure, perhaps here we have the origins of the myth surrounding the naming of Tyne Cott and not Tyne Cot Cemetery as it were.

Curiosity often gets the better of me and I knew I had an image of a Tyne Cott bunker, I hadn’t noticed before and now realise there are images of 2 bunkers named Tyne Cott – ‘8 TYNE COTT S^th’ ? and X TYNE COTT 8^th/Coy’ ? – I’m not sure what wording is shown at the ends of these painted labels although No.8 does appear to be ‘Sth’ which does suggest South, the numbering may suggest there may have also been another bunker ‘9 TYNE COTT’ in the immediate vicinity. The bunker labelled ’14 INDIGO’ which can be placed in full view in Tyne Cot Cemetery suggests that there were 4 other bunkers labelled between it and the Tyne Cott group a short distance to the south east, this may suggest that ‘IRKSOME’ may have been numbered 13 or 12 when considering the bunker that remains under the Cross of Sacrifice and the other lost bunkers in the confines of the cemetery.

Were all bunkers in the area numbered in groups or otherwise, was the labelling to define the bunker in use suggesting that some may have been unsuitable, damaged, flooded etc and not labelled as such, did the labelling serve as a clear reference point for navigation?

2^nd Lieut Francis Buckley (1/7^th Northumberland Fusiliers, 50^th Division)) gives a brief description of Tyne Cottages in ‘Q.6.a & Other Places’ –

‘On December 15 (1917) I went with General Riddell to visit the 5^th NF Battalion HQ at Tyne Cottages, some pill-boxes about halfway between forward BHQ and Passchendaele. It was a long walk, and we went up the Zonnebeke Road till we were in the neighbourhood of that village, then along the mule track to Tyne Cottages. Whilst we were talking with Major A Irwin at the pill-box a few light shells came over and sprinkled us with earth. It was best to be either inside or well away from a pill-box : but as the entrance to this pill-box was like a rabbit-hole and close to the ground General Riddell preferred to stand outside. After that we paid a visit to Dan Cottages (Judah House) and returned back along the wooden track to Ypres.’

The grave marker shown in the image below is that of Lieut Harry Forster Rutledge, 7^th AFAB, KiA 9^th October 1917, on this day he was attached to 107^th Howitzer Battery, AIF as a FOO. He is now buried at Dochy Farm Cemetery, the unknown remains of an Australian officer were recovered from an unregistered and unmarked grave at  D.17.a as recorded on the 5^th October 1919 dated CoG-BR. A second CoG-BR dated 11^th October 1919 and annotated ‘Memorial Crosses’ shows his details (as they appear on the grave marker in the image) with a GRU registered cross also recovered from D.17.a. The relevant brigade war diary records at the time of his death (6am), Rutledge was at a dug-out at approximately D.17.a.00.20 when a shell burst nearby. His service record contains correspondence dated January 1920  from his brother Lieut Col TF Rutledge (late 14^th Pioneer Battalion) –

‘I was able to get from the men who were with him the location of the grave… D.17.a.05.10’.  

Missing and Wounded Enquiry files held by the AWM also record the place of burial from eye witness accounts as Tyne Cottage and furthermore Tyne Farm.

Both map references suggest the location of the bunker labelled as ‘8 TYNE COTT S^th’ can be found in the vicinity of D.17.a.00.20 and D.17.a.05.10 which confirms a location close to Dash Crossing. Another image clearly shows the bunker labelled as ‘X TYNE COTT ???’ at D.17.a.4.2 around 200 yards to the NE, both images appear to have been taken when the bunkers were back in German hands prior to September 1918.

The 50^th Division HQ war diary makes no mention of the bunkers labelled Tyne Cott but does give map references for ‘INDIGO’ at D.16.b.8.4 and ‘IRKSOME’ at D.16.b.8.2 and are marked as such on an accompanying map – these 2 bunkers are what remain on plain view in the rear of Tyne Cot Cemetery today.

So what of ‘The Barnacle’ which appears to be interchanged with ‘Indigo’ later in the war? A map corrected to 20th October 1917 shows 'Indigo' and 'Irksome' being used as BHQs, another map corrected to 11^th September 1918 clearly shows ‘Indigo’ named as ‘The Barnacle’ whilst ‘Irksome’ remains unchanged.

The CWGC Archive contains working drawings and plans of Tyne Cott Cemetery, these include the following extract showing the layout of the bunker under the Cross of Sacrifice

[Lorre]

Wauw Jay.

Thanks!

[mebu]

Although the D 17 a 4.2 is quite clear, I have always found it odd that no map seems to show a C or PB here. The map below, overprinted

("Enemy Pill Boxes" map, summer '18, while held by the Germans, 2-3mm out of true) for example does not include it.

The Lammertyn farm name has been discounted as there was no-one with this name on local registers. The names of the householders in the cottages around the site were Deleu, Vanhee, Debruyne, Descamps/Latrue and others (local history investigations). The origin as

't Hinnekot or chicken shed was also discounted.

 

 

 

[jay dubaya]

3 minutes ago, mebu said:

The Lammertyn farm name has been discounted as there was no-one with this name on local registers. The names of the householders in the cottages around the site were Deleu, Vanhee, Debruyne, Descamps/Latrue and others (local history investigations). The origin as

't Hinnekot or chicken shed was also discounted.

Thanks for the clarification and nice to see someone has taken the time to look at the names local residents, whilst there is no Lammertyn there is a Debruyne 'YNE' which still gives this theory some legs in my book.

The map mentioned above corrected to 16th March 1916 showing two structures in the vicinity of D.17.a.4.2, whilst what may be the original Tyne Cott structures in the neighbouring square D.16.b.95.05 and b.90.15

[mebu]

Jay, yes there was some kind of building at that map reference, as I said no map seems to show it fortified like others. I have looked and looked but no joy.

The Debruyne house was slightly to the north of the present cemetery site, at 8 Vijfwegenstrrat.

There is much on the history of the site in the Bostyn book mentioned above.

I think it likely that the names eg of the rivers etc were given not by boots on the ground (our lines were well to the west for 2 years) but by RE/survey units miles behind working from old maps and aerial surveys trying hard to think of names.

[jay dubaya]

I think you're probably right regarding the name, time to put it to bed me thinks.

[Buffnut453]

Sorry...but I have a question regarding the river theory.  I can understand the Tyne part.  That's self-evident...although the only water features nearby are modest streams and not something as noticeable as the mighty Tyne. 

Then there's the cot/cott/cottages part.  Where does that come from?  It has no association with the Tyne River.  If it isn't referring to cottages in the vicinity, what does it refer to?

I'm probably the least qualified person to comment on this topic but I, personally, like the "chicken shed" explanation.  It chimes with other Anglicisations of Belgian/French words (e.g. Wipers), it could be seen as disparaging of Germans who sat safe in their concrete bunkers (i.e. the Germans were the chickens and the bunkers were the sheds), and it speaks of being cooped up, potentially with no way out...which is probably how the Tommies felt when under fire from German positions. 

Does anyone know why the "chicken shed" option was discounted?  

[Lorre]

't Hinnekot or chicken shed was also discounted

Still used by many locals here 't hinnekot, but doubt it had anything to do with the battlescene.

Think it was more like a pre war thing.  Just a dialect from here cause the locals there English was not so good.

[AOK4]

11 minutes ago, Lorre said:

't Hinnekot or chicken shed was also discounted

Still used by many locals here 't hinnekot, but doubt it had anything to do with the battlescene.

Think it was more like a pre war thing.  Just a dialect from here cause the locals there English was not so good.

No, it's a post war thing. It's the locals that made 't hennekot from Tyne Cot.

[Lorre]

No, it's a post war thing. It's the locals that made 't hennekot from Tyne Cot.

Off course Jan.  Sorry, You're wright! That's what i meant to say! After the war.

Thanks for correcting me.  

(Guess my English is also not so good. )

 

Edited 16 July , 2022 by Lorre

[Curlew1919]

Was cot not just the sounding of the flemish word Kot meaning small shelter? 

As the flemish name Ypres to the Geordie's as Wipers (Why pres) 

So just as simple as Tyne Cot (Tyne Kot) 

Tyne Shelter... 

[mebu]

I think the answer to your query is covered several times in the thread above.

Peter

[Curlew1919]

Don't see what you mean Mebu? 

Whose to say Tyne Cot meant Tyne Cottage when the 1st Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers named late 1914 (a Geordie Regiment who recruited men from both sides of the Tyne)

Surely you would not put Tyne Cot for Tyne Cottage (you would put Cottage not Cot yi nah like) 

But you would surely put Tyne Cot for Tyne Kot

Jist as the 1st NF termed the name Wipers for Ypres in 1914

Y (why) pres (purrs) why I man yi nah like hinny Di yi nah nowt like... 

 

[AOK4]

6 minutes ago, Curlew1919 said:

Don't see what you mean Mebu? 

Whose to say Tyne Cot meant Tyne Cottage when the 1st Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers named late 1914 (a Geordie Regiment who recruited men from both sides of the Tyne)

Surely you would not put Tyne Cot for Tyne Cottage (you would put Cottage not Cot yi nah like) 

But you would surely put Tyne Cot for Tyne Kot

Jist as the 1st NF termed the name Wipers for Ypres in 1914

Y (why) pres (purrs) why I man yi nah like hinny Di yi nah nowt like... 

 

If you really want to believe the Kot theory, please feel free to do so...

There is just no believable evidence to support this.

[Curlew1919]

Geordie's would not abbreviate Cottage as a Cot

But they would call a spade a shovel

They simply renamed a Flemish Kot as a Tyne Cot when they sequestrated it. 

Don't forget that 'all's fair in love and war'

Edited 11 December , 2022 by Curlew1919
Correction

[AOK4]

BTW: It's always "Tyne Cott." on trench maps...

[Curlew1919]

Bye the way (via) late 1914 it was named Tyne Cot

Not Tyne Cott or even Tyne Cottages

They did not name the cemetery Tyne Cottages Cemetery nor Tyne Cott. Cemetery

They named it Tyne Cot Cemetery as it still is today

And if I was a local I would call it Tyne Kot Cemetery...

Yi nah like bonny lad cos ah think it sounds canniest.. 

I think some of the lads of the 1st Northumberland Fusiliers who was there Christmas 1914 kicking a ball about would have had hand drawn map with Tyne Cot on it. 

The Tyneside lads of 1st NF would have definitely called the Flemish Kot wor Tyne Cot... 

Edited 11 December , 2022 by Curlew1919
Corrections

[mebu]

Must have had very good eyesight, from several miles away. Don't think they were " kicking a ball about " according to their war diary.

However, would be interested if you have any documentation of name in 1914, as you state. 

[mebu]

I'm sorry you have such little regard for documentary evidence.

2 things:  1st NF were 20 miles behind the line, at Locre, on Christmas day 1914. Nothing to do with any Christmas truce.

                Not only officers casualties were recorded, as you suggest.. Attached is part of  - many  - pages of casualties for 1NF in December 1914. There is a lot of information to be found if you look.

 

"Bye bye.

[mebu]

sorry, didn't attach, my technical fault.

 

PS by the way, these lists were not drawn up in chateaux behind the lines, but in Battalion HQs right behind the line.

 

to repeat, "Bye bye

[mebu]

1 NF, Christmas Eve and Christmas day, 1914.  Available free of charge from National Archives. Takes 10 minutes to find and print, plenty there for you to look at.

Now bye bye and goodnight.