Tyne Cot

[CROONAERT]

After leafing through several sources today, I think I've found the solution to the confusion over the naming of Tyne Cot.

The 50th (Northumbrian) Division actually named the cemetery "Tyne Cot" (the original bit behind the coss of sacrifice) in 1917 after a nearby feature (farmhouse) that had already been named as such. They didn't actually name the building.

I suspect (as mentioned earlier) that the name "Tyne Cot(t)" for the building might originate as far back as October 1914.

Dave.

[Aurel Sercu]

Thanks, Dave.

Just this : do you think that the origin of the names Seine Farm and Marne Farm (nearby) has more or less the same inspiration as Tyne Cot ? After all, the Tyne is a river, isn't it ?

And if the name Tyne Cot(t) goes back as far as Oct 1914, then it cannot refer to pillboxes resembling cottages in the Tyne area, can it ? (For there were no pillboxes at the time, I guess.)

Aurel

[CROONAERT]

And if the name Tyne Cot(t) goes back as far as Oct 1914, then it cannot refer to pillboxes resembling cottages in the Tyne area, can it ? (For there were no pillboxes at the time, I guess.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm 100% certain that it definately doesn't refer to the pillboxes. Tyne Cot was definately a pre-war building (farm/house/cottage).

Your river theory is quite plausable too because also in the area you can find Thames, Rhine and Tiber.

Another building in the area which may dispel the 50th Div naming rumour is "Vienna Cot". I don't think there were too many Austrian troops serving with the british army in 1917 to name that one!!!

Dave.

[mebu]

Don't know about the name origin, but it certainly ain't the pill boxes, these were a rather later addition. Peter.

[mebu]

Sorry, forgot to add...the 2 there now were named "Irksome" and "The Barnacle".

[shinglma]

Dave

Thanks for a most interesting contribution to this thread. I have always had my doubts about the traditional explanation of this name. A native of the North-East I cannot think of any traditional Tyneside cottages which the pillboxes might be reminiscent of. The story has always struck me as implausible.

Kind regards

Mike S

[Mat McLachlan]

I think Dave's sketch goes a long way to dispelling the pillbox story. On the sketch 'Tyne Cottage' clearly refers to a single building (or at least, a small group of buildings). As I understand it the pillbox theory always talks in general plurals: 'The pillboxes on the horizon resembled Tyneside cottages...' etc.

This is the first time I've seen reference to Tyne Cottage as a freestanding building - it seems odd to me that Tyneside troops would single out one pillbox (out of hundreds on Broodseinde Ridge) because of its resemblence to a Tyneside cottage. Much more likely the name Tyne Cot was already used to refer to a farm or group of farm buildings when the pillboxes were constructed.

Thanks for all the comments.

Mat

[Tom Morgan]

I wonder if pals who have maps with "Tyne Cott" marked could look carefully to see if there's a full-stop after "Cott." If there is, then this might confirm that the word is being used as an abbreviation and is referring to a single building (which looks likely.)

Tom

[CROONAERT]

I wonder if pals who have maps with "Tyne Cott" marked could look carefully to se if there's a full-stop after "Cott."  If there is, then this might confirm that the word is being used as an abbreviation and is referring to a single building (which looks likely.) 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, there is. (Good point that ,Tom - "Vienna Cot", as mentioned earlier, is actually "Vienna Cotts.").

Dave.

[CROONAERT]

For those interested, the grid reference for Tyne Cot (yes, it's definately a single building that was in existance pre-war) is Sheet 28 D17a 4.5 2.1

Dave.

[CROONAERT]

This modern map shows the location of "Tyne Cottage" today. (The original building lay just a little to the north-west of the present building). As you can see, I dispute the accuracy of the sketchmap from Andre Deseyne's book.

Dave.

[Tom Morgan]

Yes, there is. (Good point that ,Tom - "Vienna Cot", as mentioned earlier, is actually "Vienna Cotts.").

Dave.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In that case one hypothesis might be:

1 There was a building known as Tyne Cottage (one of several in the area named after rivers) and this building was marked on the maps as TYNE COTT. to avoid unecessary lettering covering up parts of the map.

2 People began referring to it (and the area nearby) as TYNE COTT as marked on the map. But when writing it down they began referring to it as TYNE COT, turning the abbreviation COTT. into a real English word. (I can imagine how many of the people who needed to write it down had only heard the name said, and had not seen it marked on the map.)

3 The present-day cemetery thus became known as Tyne Cot, and the original location, Tyne Cottage, was forgotten. Faced with the name which is made up of English words but which doesn't actually mean very much, people began looking for a meaning. "Cot"is an old word for a cottage or little house, and there is a Tyneside link in the name, so the story grew that the name was given by Tynesiders because a building there reminded them of home.

End of Hypothesis!

Tom

[Mat McLachlan]

Wow, with all the great forensic work being conducted, watch out for Tom starring in a brand new TV show in the near future: 'CSI Flanders'...

Now, the big question: Have we come far enough for me to officially challenge the pillbox rumour in my book? I think so...

Cheers,

Mat

[CROONAERT]

Check out Sheet 28NE1 ed.3C. (dated 5/5/1916) You'll find your answer there.

Them boys from the NF's must have had real good eyesight if the "traditional" story is true!!!

Dave.

I never did post a 1916 extract did I? Here's one (note the Tyne Cot. (single "T") on this edition.).

Dave (PS, since last posting, I have also seen the Tyne Cot name on an OSO1915 map, so my theory of the 1914 naming is looking more likely).

[Pals]

Hi all,

Apologies if this has been covered before.

Does anyone know definitively the origin of the name for Tyne Cot Cemetery? I've heard that it refers to cottages that stood there early in the war; also that it refers to German pillboxes there that looked like Tyneside cottages.

Anyone know for sure or is this one lost to the ages?

Cheers,

Mat

It is said that the Northumberland Fusilers gave the name as the cottages reminded those soldiers of the cottages on the Tyne

Pals

[paul guthrie]

Graham Parker who previously owned Flanders Tours told me one of the pillboxes there for years had the # of the wrong Australian Division on it, it was not there, it was changed.

[CROONAERT]

It is said that the Northumberland Fusilers gave the name as the cottages reminded those soldiers of the cottages on the Tyne

Pals

I think that that theory has been conclusively disproven on this thread Pals.

Dave