Railway Dugouts- Zillebeke- origins

[David_Blanchard]

I am trying to find when Railway Dugouts was first used either as a brigade headquarters or an ADS (I believe this was by the 13 FA in April 1915)- I have found evidence that the 84 Brigade of the 28 Division were using the dugouts near the railway as a HQ in February1915- but I cannot find any information concerning the construction of the dugouts. I have looked at the war diaries of a number of CRE but no information found.

 

Any advise or help appreciated. 

Edited 21 May , 2021 by David_Blanchard

[Bob Davies]

22 hours ago, David_Blanchard said:

I am trying to find when Railway Dugouts was first used

Hi David, the 'railway dugouts' are mentioned in The Fifth Leicestershire by Captain Hills MC Croix de Guerre.  June 1915, so already in use, it may be of help? Chapter III The Salient page 39. Well worth a read. Regards, Bob. https://archive.org/details/leicestershire00hilluoft/page/n55/mode/2up 

Edited 7 May , 2021 by Bob Davies

[David_Blanchard]

Bob,

Many thanks for the reference. The earliest reference I have for Railway Dugouts as an ADS is the 17 April 1915- from the ‘Fifth Division: 13th 14th and 15th Field Ambulance.’ This was in response to the mining of Hill 60 on 17 April 1915. 

 

[brianmorris547]

David

28 Div took over from the French when they arrived and 5 Div took over from 28 Div I think. The WD of 5 Div ADMS records that on 15/04/1915 the ADMS met the GOC 13 Infantry Brigade and a guide was provided to show the ADMS the Railway Cuttings south of Zillebeke Pond in I 29 c. The ADMS did not consider them to be suitable. This sketch map showing the Railway Cuttings near Larch Wood and French dug outs is from the WD of 5 Div HQ GS (Courtesy TNA WO 95/1512/1-5 - Ancestry p 23/873). Larch Wood is in I 29 c. Would not these have been constructed by the French.

Brian.

 

[tootrock]

Surely the dugouts at Larch Wood are not the same as the Railway Dugouts at Transport Farm?

Martin

[Bob Davies]

1 hour ago, brianmorris547 said:

Would not these have been constructed by the French.

That is what I am coming round to seeing now Brian. I believe the French were in this vicinity first and as such would have made use of the railway embankment for dugouts. There was little other cover in the area, or so I am led to believe. However there were British units fighting here too along side the French and retreating from Klein Zillebeke direction in early November 1914.

[Bob Davies]

To add a better description to my previous post I just found this account. "The extent of the cavalry's casualties was not immediately apparent to the men of 7 Cavalry Brigade as they returned to their billets at Mud Farm that night."  Mud farm can be seen on the map in the link, not too far from the Railway dugouts. https://www.westernfrontassociation.com/world-war-i-articles/the-aristocrats-cemetery-at-zillebeke/ Also this link from the German perspective,(page 94) where I originally got my info from. https://www.gutenberg.org/files/44234/44234-h/44234-h.htm So possibly from the units mentioned, we may find a reference to the 'Railway dugouts'? Regard,Bob.

Edited 7 May , 2021 by Bob Davies

[David_Blanchard]

Thanks for all the help, but I think that Railway Dugouts was as far as I can see the 84 Brigade HQ - were here in February 1915, from the map of the ADMS 28 Division. This was a stopping place for Ambulances in the same period and the ADS was in Ypres, at the Asylum. 
 

It was only when the ambulances of the 46 Midland Division arrived in June that what became known as  the ADS at Belgian Battery Corner was developed along with the ADS at Château Rosendal, also known as Bedford House were developed. 
 

 

Report from July 1915 by 1/3 North Midland FA. By this time a recognisable medical evacuation chain had emerged. 
 

 

 

 

[brianmorris547]

This map is from the March 1915 WD of 5 Div HQ GS (Courtesy TNA WO 95/1511/1-3 Ancestry p 951/951) and may help.

Brian 

 

[Bob Davies]

On 08/05/2021 at 04:22, David_Blanchard said:

It was only when the ambulances of the 46 Midland Division arrived in June that what became known as  the ADS at Belgian Battery Corner was developed along with the ADS at Château Rosendal, also known as Bedford House were developed. 

I see where you are at David. This is from the 138th Brigade war diary (Lincolns and Leicesters) part of the 49th Midland Div. 12/07/1915

.

[Bob Davies]

One more from the 138th diary showing the use of 'Larch Dugouts' as part of the garrisons of trenches and supports @brianmorris547

[David_Blanchard]

Having looked at the History of the 5 Division- the 13 Brigade on loan occupied dugouts at Transport Farm railway embankment on 16 April. However, I cannot find the war diary for the 13 Brigade for this period- what should be the diary starts later in the year. 
 

Any help here appreciated- may have to look in WD for battalions of 13 Brigade.

David 

 

[IRC Kevin]

Try here, David.

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14017129

regards,

Kevin

[Bob Davies]

12 hours ago, David_Blanchard said:

Any help here appreciated- may have to look in WD for battalions of 13 Brigade.

I have not downloaded any WD from the 13th Brigade as yet. From reading CWGC articles it seems they started burying men here in April 1915. So possibly that coincides with what you were saying earlier about the evacuation of casualties @David_Blanchard The 1st Devons were here 21st April 1915 but nothing in their war Diary. 14th Brigade 5th Division at the time. I believe?

[David_Blanchard]

My mistake with regard to 13 Brigade diary, now got it. However, discovered that on 18 April the 13 Brigade headquarters were at Transport Farm and a German shell killed the Staff Captain Lieutenant Charles Caledon Egerton- perhaps the first time a  reference to Transport Farm and the dugouts has been used. (See reference from Andrew Rawson’s 1915- But I cannot find where this reference is from- having looked war diaries and battalion and divisional histories- there is no reference to his death from shell fire) 

 

At this point it would appear that neither  Transport Farm or Railway Dugouts was being used for burials as his grave is in Ramparts Cemetery, Lille Gate.

 

(Information about Egerton from Rugby school) 

 

David 

 

 

 

 

 

[brianmorris547]

David, Bob

Have you got co ordinates for Transport Farm. I'm getting confused with embankments and cuttings. 

The WD of 13 IB 10/04/1915 records that the 15 IB HQ arrived at the Farm in I 21 a (and 13 IB HQ moved back to a farm in H 14 a) and on 17/04/1915 moved at noon to 15 Brigade HQ (presumably at the farm in I 21 a - the 15 IB WD is no help) and thence to dug outs in railway cutting. 

On the map I posted where the railway passes through I 21 c and d it is marked on the map as an embankment, and where the railway runs through I 29 c it is marked on the map as a cutting, which agrees with the sketch map. 

Brian

[Bob Davies]

55 minutes ago, brianmorris547 said:

On the map I posted where the railway passes through I 21 c and d it is marked on the map as an embankment, and where the railway runs through I 29 c it is marked on the map as a cutting, which agrees with the sketch map. 

Brian

Totally correct Brian. Transport farm is in square 21, just to the left of the figures 21 on the map you posted. South of the road and north of the railway line. This map taken from Nat' Library Scotland.

[brianmorris547]

Thanks Bob

I thought it must be that.

I had a look at the WD for the DDMS 5 Corps (WO 95/758/1) to see if there was any that might assist David in his original quest but it only seems to deal with 27 Div, 28 Div and the Canadian Div. There is a mention on 18/04/1915 that 5 Div attacked Hill 60 

Brian

 

Edited 9 May , 2021 by brianmorris547

[IRC Kevin]

Referring back to date of first use of Transport Farm as a Brigade HQ, I'm fairly sure that 15 Bde used this location when they relieved 9 Bde on the night of 21/22 March 1915, although 15 Bde's diary just reports "in trenches". The excerpt below mentioning Transport Farm as a Bde location, is from an anonymous post-war account of the first two years active service of the Liverpool Rifles, believed to have been written by Capt. 'Glyn' Blackledge, in cooperation with former COs John McKaig & Walter Brownell, and deposited in one of the 40 boxes of papers donated to Liverpool record Office by Norman Ellison shortly before his death. The circumstances described exactly match deployments recorded in the diary of the 'Rifles' for that day, though again, they are not specific about Bde HQ's location. It's not improbable that 9 Bde constructed the Transport Farm dugouts during their attachment to 28 Div between 17 Feb and 2 April 1915.

 

[Bob Davies]

On 10/05/2021 at 04:47, brianmorris547 said:

There is a mention on 18/04/1915 that 5 Div attacked Hill 60 

Thanks Brian, and IRC Kevin, here is an extract from 15th IB diary from 16th 17th April 1915.  "and the other half in brigade reserve in dug outs under railway near Zillebeke pond"

[David_Blanchard]

Excellent, thanks Bob and Kevin. Is the anonymous account of the experience of the Liverpool Rifles available to access?

 

This is certainly the earliest account I have seen of the the railway embankment near Transport farm being used as brigade headquarters.

 

You  suggest that the Liverpool Rifles may have constructed the dugouts- or perhaps RE field companies from 28 Division. It maybe worth checking out their war diaries. 
 

I also came across this earlier: An oral recording at the IWM

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80009339
 

An interview with Basil Farrar- all the other reels seem to work well but for me frustratingly Reel 6 doesn’t!

 

 

Period as stretcher bearer with 13th Field Ambulance Royal Army Medical Corps attached to 13th Bde, 5th Div in Ypres area, 1915: situation; dugouts in railway embankment near Hellfire Corner; kit; non-combatant status; duties evacuating wounded from regimental aid posts to casualty clearing station. REEL 7 Continues: duties evacuating wounded from regimental 

 

David 

Edited 9 May , 2021 by David_Blanchard

[brianmorris547]

Bob

Thaks. I had seen the 15 IB entry about 6 Liverpools but when I looked in the Bn WD it did not seem to confirm the location of the half Bn in Brigade Reserve. The 5 Corps DDMS WD April 1915 mentions the disease ridden condition of Vlamertinghe, interesting reading and perhaps why they were forced to use dug outs.

Brian

[David_Blanchard]

Found this diary entry from the 1/1 North Midland Field Coy RE (on loan to 28 Division- later became 465 Field Coy) 2 April 1915- two dugouts made in the railway bank.

 

On the 1 April- at Zillebeke Road 10 dugouts built and commenced work on 6 more- these could possibly be near railway embankment as well.

 

 

 

[IRC Kevin]

8 hours ago, David_Blanchard said:

Excellent, thanks Bob and Kevin. Is the anonymous account of the experience of the Liverpool Rifles available to access?

 

This is certainly the earliest account I have seen of the the railway embankment near Transport farm being used as brigade headquarters.

 

You  suggest that the Liverpool Rifles may have constructed the dugouts- or perhaps RE field companies from 28 Division. It maybe worth checking out their war diaries. 
 

 

Hi David,

I suggested that the dugouts may have been constructed by 9 Bde prior to 15 Bde taking over. There's certainly no mention in any Liverpool Rifle sources (either their diary or personal accounts) of them doing so, and what (quite detailed) information I do have about their working parties very much suggests that the Rifles didn't do it.

 

Blackledge's account is available, but you have to know it exists and where it can be found. Norman Ellison's 40 boxes have never been catalogued and reside in deep storage. Although the vast majority of material concerns his time as 'Nomad', the wildlife commentator on children's radio in the 1960s, there are large scrapbooks on both world wars. Upon the post-war publication of the history of the 2/6th's war, Ellison suggested to other veterans that they too should write their memoirs and with the blessing of some former COs published a story in the Liverpool Echo asking for personal accounts towards this end. Ellison completed the first part, but when it became clear that the cost of publication would be too great, the project was shelved. Instead, an abridged history, covering their time up to the end of their Somme deployment, was serialised in a number of issues of the 'Rifleman', the Rifles magazine. It is this precis that is the 'Blackledge' account and as far as I know only survives in typewritten form in Ellison's scrapbooks- which also contain his own story, numerous press cuttings and letters from other veterans describing their wartime experiences. I know that Blackledge had read Ellison's work prior to the publication in the Rifleman. Ellison asked Blackledge a number of times if he was the author and although Blackledge never owned up to authorship, he never denied it either, just grinning in reply. Ellison does write that he was sure that Blackledge was in fact the author (which makes Blackledge the British officer in that apocryphal story concerning 'International Trench' who cautiously raised his head to look into the enemy half of the trench only to meet face to face a German officer doing likewise).  I was very fortunate to have this wealth of information and the complete 'Casualties' books, in addition to the usual sources, when I wrote my book on the battalion. 

regards,

Kevin

 

[Bob Davies]

On 10/05/2021 at 06:44, IRC Kevin said:

I'm fairly sure that 15 Bde used this location when they relieved 9 Bde on the night of 21/22 March 1915,

In WO95 1566 (15 infantry bde diary) we have two accounts of the 15 brigade taking over from the 9th brigade. It sounds as if the trenches ans support lines are in a bad state or non existent. There a number of reports of the work done to repair the trenches etc including a 'railway arch'. It might be  worth your while downloading the diary from Nat Archives @David_Blanchard