Jump to content
Free downloads from TNA ×
The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Railway Dugouts- Zillebeke- origins


David_Blanchard

Recommended Posts

I've been throughly enjoying keeping up to date with this thread and thought I had nothing to contribute. Going through an old hard drive which has hundreds of untitled images I have found a couple that may appear to be relevant to the thread, whilst they don't answer David's original question I hope they may be of some use.

A recent look at the formation of Divisional Cemetery led me to Transport Farm, Railway Dugouts and the ADS, during May 1915 the impression given is that the ADS was not in Railway Dugouts but was a very short distance east and may also have occupied dugouts further along the embankment - of course as times change as do the locations of ADS etc, which may have occupied Railway Dugouts at a later date.

1831296017_RailwaydugoutsTransportFarmZillebeke1917.jpg.e3d2e8e7c29d597e7aafdfd5a00ef419.jpg

 

(image source unknown at present)

 

The above image is an extract from a larger map and dates to around August/September 1917 - it's likey that the source is within 30th Division WDs. Railway Dugouts clearly marked on the northern side of the embankment. 

1264187583_ZillebekelaketransportfarmandsidingsIWMBOX142-54-53B-28I-1918.jpg.236ef32d113e48fe1eed2366c4baeb82.jpg

 

(image source IWM BOX 142-54-53B-28I-1918)

 

please forgive the unnecessary fleshy border which appeared when I rotated the image to north. Dated September 1917 it clearly illustrates the map posted by Luc and the area used for the sidings, Transport Farm and pond can be seen along with the dugouts on the northen side of the embankment.

Zillebeke.jpg.c90e8ca7a2eff62014ca8ac21b23ca55.jpg

 

(image source unknown at present)

 

I probably had this image via the late Malte Znanicki. Transport Farm can be seen intact as can a tree lined north embankment - early 1915?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jay,

 

thanks very much for the images. I think the last aerial photograph may be later, as I am not sure the trench system was that developed in early 1915. 
 

David 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 27/05/2021 at 05:17, jay dubaya said:

Dated September 1917 it clearly illustrates the map posted by Luc and the area used for the sidings, Transport Farm and pond can be seen along with the dugouts on the northen side of the embankment.

 

Jay,

the source of that aerial photo is here at the IWM but their details say "Production date 1918-02-03" which matches the 3-2-18.12.AM. in the top right corner.

Are we looking at dugouts or trees on the north side of the embankment as can be seen in your third photo?

The trees were probably destroyed and didn't have leaves in February 1918, also the tree line (3th photo) stops at the tunnel but the "features" on the northern side continue in the 2nd photo.

 

I just found this "oblique aerial of Ypres, Hooge and Zillebeke, the Lake and Manor Farm area, Sept 1916" on the facebook page of the In Flanders Field Museum.

It was taken from the east and it takes some time to get the correct line of sight.

An extract shows Transport Farm still intact and the same line of trees stopping at the tunnel. There are also white spots between the farm and the railway, could these be tents or huts?

35047770_Ypresareaextract.jpg.fc877172add36e7e1220cf1f629b964e.jpg

 

 

David,

this aerial of the south of Ypres shows the trenches (marked by the Germans) and probably other features for the situation in 1916.

Hope it helps with your research,

Luc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Luc,

 

Just to clarify on the oblique photograph:

 

number 10- just north of this point on the lake is Transport Farm

 

number 9- village of Zillebeke

 

number 18- Tuileries 


 

David 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, LDT006 said:

the source of that aerial photo is here at the IWM but their details say "Production date 1918-02-03" which matches the 3-2-18.12.AM. in the top right corner.

Are we looking at dugouts or trees on the north side of the embankment as can be seen in your third photo?

The trees were probably destroyed and didn't have leaves in February 1918, also the tree line (3th photo) stops at the tunnel but the "features" on the northern side continue in the 2nd photo.


Ah... thanks for pointing that out Luc, the mistake is all mine... I’ve no idea why I typed September 1917 other than viewing several images of Zillebeke Lake from that period.

I think we’re looking at dugouts under shade of the embankment and what remains of the tree line.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

David's map from 69 FA  does put the ADS on the north side of the embankment, and Jay's map does put Railway Dugouts on the north side also, although slightly further along the track, from 20d into 21c. The earlier trench map posted puts the Dugouts on the south side, which contradicts, so it is possible that the Dugouts had entrances on either side, which is quite possible.

 

The blue cross below will then give the location of the photographer of the photo posted, wish I could visit and take photo from both locations.

 

Peter

524470455_RWAY2_LI(2).jpg.118ab8b7c59533b22385afc19fad5618.jpg

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

44 minutes ago, mebu said:

The blue cross below will then give the location of the photographer of the photo posted, wish I could visit and take photo from both locations.

 

Peter,

 

are you referring to the "small photo" posted earlier? This one has been identified as shelters at the Ramparts near the Lille gate on the previous page, do you not agree or am I missing something?

I will try to get closer to the concrete dugout entry next week and can take pictures or look for other traces in the embankment.

 

Luc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Luc, no not the Ypres ramparts, I think that was incorrect and confused the issue. I mean the one reproduced below. It is not certain that it was taken from the white (south) or blue (north) cross positions, no shadows to help. Possibly the bend in the embankment is from the lens used.

Note that it seems to show trees on one side only, not on the side where the men stand. The IWM aerial photo posted above by Jay - from a southern aspect - shows the embankment and bushes/trees/tents/stockpiles or whatever as white on one side and dark, shaded, on the other. 

We have one map giving the dugouts located on the south side, and one map showing them on the north side. So, maybe an entrance either side.

Peter

 

PS whichever side, the photo does seem to have been taken from a height, maybe atop a wagon or similar.

777745245_rwpic.jpeg.58ac1014be14b779d31c3437fe92c32f.jpeg

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Peter,

 

that is the photo I was referring to, it is also on the Australian War Memorial here (David didn't link to the page) and reproduced below.

 

430807330_RampartdugoutsfromAWM.jpg.05b259308421dff69025e0bd8ef55758.jpgTheir description states:

Members of the 5th Field Company of Australian Engineers billeted in dugouts along the ramparts at Ypres. On the other side of the embankment the great stone wall sloped down to the moat filled with water, and against it the enemy shells frequently pounded, but without any appreciable effect.

 

The main reason, in my opinion, why this photo doesn't match with the locations of the white and blue cross is the fact that there are no trees on that section of the railway in the aerial pictures posted above. There also seems to be a big pile of rubble in the bottom right corner, the photographer could be standing on what was left of the buildings opposite of the ramparts.

There are other reasons why I believe that this isn't from Railway Dugouts: The shelters look like brickwork against an embankment and no real dugouts, the bend looks more like a corner when looking at the boardwalk. But I could be wrong...

More pictures later this week.

 

Luc.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just had a look at the pics either side of this at AWM. It does lend credence to the pic being in Ypres town.

Unfortunately very difficult to identify anything with google earth. Another case for a site visit needed.

Peter

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

The WD of 298 Army Field Artillery Brigade (WO 95/456/7) for Jun 1917.

The location in the margin is Railway Dugouts (sheet 28) I 21 c 5 6

Brian

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

I received a copy of ‘With a Field Ambulance on the Western Front’ Herbert Bruce Low (2020) today-  concerned with the 2/2 Northumbrian FE - the diary entries for February 1916 are about the construction of the dugouts near Transport Farm. ‘Hot showers in the bathroom’ 

049F9B68-D976-4D41-8A83-6B717D963EC7.jpeg

Edited by David_Blanchard
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...