Railway Dugouts- Zillebeke- origins

[Bob Davies]

1 hour ago, David_Blanchard said:

From the Cavalry Corps diary, January- April 1915, there is a map on which is marked- ‘Cavan’s Dug Out’.

A great find David, well done Sir! :-) I shall go down a few other routes to see if there is more on the 'origin of Railway Dugouts' anywhere. Regards, Bob.

[Bob Davies]

On 20/05/2021 at 15:15, LDT006 said:

The map below shows the cemetery with the railway to the south and the tunnel.

Thank you for posting all these pictures Luc, very interesting!

 

7 hours ago, mebu said:

Sorry to be pedantic

No problem on my behalf Peter. Yes the map I posted does not say Dugout. Bad me. I have know the location of the 'Railway Dugouts' since the start of the question. The reason for the rest of my posts is to explore all the other clues/avenues that I have found, with regard to their construction and naming. A very interesting topic it is too. Best wishes, Bob.

[mebu]

David, and Bob, yes I agree the map does say dugout; this term was in general use in the army at that time (at least since the Crimea and probably before that) and if I remember correctly appears in the 1911 War Office Manual of Field Engineering: these would not necessarily mean a mined or shell proof structure, often just cut-and-cover and/or weatherproof. "Concrete Dugout" was generally used before the word bunker was coined. The word "dugout" was often used and appears in many accounts and diaries.

However my understanding of the thread is the origin of "Railway Dugouts", or perhaps I have misunderstood this

The location of Railway Dugouts has been confirmed, also various references to their early use.

An etymological search of the word "dugout" will need to go back much earlier than WW1.  

 

Hope this clarifies, Peter

 

PS I wish I were able to visit and take a photo from the white X on the map below, would be a good  'then and now' picture.

 

[Bob Davies]

47 minutes ago, mebu said:

However my understanding of the thread is the origin of "Railway Dugouts", or perhaps I have misunderstood this

The location of Railway Dugouts has been confirmed, also various references to their early use.

Peter, you did not misunderstand anything here. What I did not make clear, was that I was researching the 4th Guards Brigade, (commanded by Lord Cavan) who were fighting near this location in November 1914. I was looking in the 4th Guards Brigade war diaries to see if they mentioned the 'Railway Dugouts'. David and myself knew about a reference to Lord Cavans Dug out, that is why we mentioned it here. It has nothing to do with 'Railway Dugouts'. Yes it would be quite something to stand on point X to view the scene. Best wishes, Bob.

[David_Blanchard]

 

It wasn’t about the location of Railway Dugouts- this has been  an interesting digression - but about when it was constructed. I believe this still hasn’t been answered. (see my original post)  It would appear, if we taken Crofton’s testimony to be correct which I do- then it was built by the RE, probably late October- early November 1914 and I am still in the process of checking RE war diaries to see what was actually built and when.

 

Secondary to this I would like to find out when the dugouts first served as an Advanced Dressing Station.

 

As another interesting digression I would also like to know what Transport Farm was called before 1914- and why it became known as ‘Transport’ farm?  I have looked at the WD of the French 31e Division ( who were there before the 28 Division took over the sector in February 1915) but frustratingly there is a map but the farm is not named. (Not mentioned in Peter Chssseaud’s ‘Rats Alley’)

 

David 

Edited 21 May , 2021 by David_Blanchard

[Bob Davies]

On 20/05/2021 at 13:53, Michael Peck said:

May I thank Bob Davies for going to the trouble of drawing my attention to this, very interesting Bob. Thank you.

My pleasure Mike, thanks to you too for your thread on this topic. Regards Bob.

[Bob Davies]

On 22/05/2021 at 07:04, David_Blanchard said:

Secondary to this I would like to find out when the dugouts first served as an Advanced Dressing Station

David, to narrow things down for you, from the 4th Field Ambulance (4th guards Brigade) WD. Again the hand writing takes some reading, so if I find more I shall let you know. 31-10-1914;  "Bearers now at SW corner of Zillebeke lake at road angle"  This is mentioned a couple of times later, so it must have been the place for them. No mentions of Railway Dugouts.

[David_Blanchard]

Bob,

 

Thanks for the reference.

 

David 

[Bob Davies]

29 minutes ago, David_Blanchard said:

Thanks for the reference.

A pleasure David. They move from Ypres around the 20th/21st Nov '14. I am trying to work out who relieves them. Some parts are easy to read others not. WO-95-1336-1 and 2

[LDT006]

On 22/05/2021 at 05:39, mebu said:

PS I wish I were able to visit and take a photo from the white X on the map below, would be a good  'then and now' picture.

Peter,

why from that location? I assumed, from reading several documents, that the dugout entries were on the other (northern) side where the cemetery is located. This would also be a better protection against shell fire or am I missing something?

You also had an issue with the trees on the small then photo on page 2, this undated map, based on an old Belgian one, at the NLS shows a lot of trees there:

 

Also the height of the embankment could be different now compared to then, proof for this is that the trench maps clearly indicate a cutting at the closeby Larch Wood and there is an embankment now as can be seen on a photo that I posted earlier.

I still have a problem with the precise location of the dugouts but wouldn't be surprised if there were dugouts on this entire section of railway. What is the source of the trench map that you posted earlier where "Railway Dugouts" are marked? 

 

On 22/05/2021 at 07:04, David_Blanchard said:

As another interesting digression I would also like to know what Transport Farm was called before 1914- and why it became known as ‘Transport’ farm?

 

David,

the Flemish farm name is "De Pollepel" and it already exists since the 17th century, article in Flemish here. The dominating language during WWI in Belgium was still French and the name could be "la Louche" or "la Cuillère". I will have a look tomorrow if I can find something more.

The British probably called it "Transport Farm" because it was a junction of supply and evacuation routes since the beginning of the war, there is this trench map from the NLS which shows several small railways, one is passing through the tunnel under the railway at "Tunnel Jctn" and there even looks to be a railway station at "Zillebeke Lake Siding". Flemish articles about WWI are all stating that this was for the evacuation of the wounded towards Ypres and beyond. This is probably correct but my problem is that the texts are very similar, and sometimes copies from other (unverified?) sources.

 

 

Regards from rainy and cold Belgium,

Luc.

 

Edit: this is the third attempt to post this, it previously failed twice when I was inserting a second quote and lost all text and attachments after the first one. Now I can't get rid of this map below but won't try and risk loosing everything again.

 

[David_Blanchard]

Luc,

 

Excellent post, thanks. Particularly pleasing is that I now have the name of the farm. The British trench map is from which date? I think Zillebeke Sidings and some of the other features date from much later in the war, possibly in late 1917. 
 

David 

[mebu]

Hello Luc  Yes I agree that it would be interesting to see a modern photo from the opposite side: bear in mind that this stretch of embankment is potentially under artillery fire on both sides, both from the east and the south. It may well have had entrances on both sides. Just wish I could get there to do some photos

Also yes, the embankment is higher, down most of it's length, more easily confirmed by German pics of the line down towards Hollebeke which are easily compared with today. However I don't think the ticked areas denote woods, early  British maps from the French have masses of this,nearly all the way to Ypres. not all woods. 

The 1918 map you post shows how close the German 1918 advance came to Transport farm and the dugouts, their use must have changed significantly during this period

 

I think David is correct in that the name Transport Farm is from well before the 1917 build-up and the establishment of rail junction/sidings. It does appear on mid 1916 maps. I remember discussing the name with Hannelore Decoodt of the inventaris (my name, as a contributor, is at the bottom of the link you post) but like many or most British names on these maps the origins really are obscure, often the result of a minor event or comment. I think I would take any attribution of the name origin with suspicion. 

 

Peter

 

 

 

[Aurel Sercu]

Not at all relevant, only a photo or two, of the present post-war rebuilt (1920s) farm Transport Farm, still with the original nam "Pollepel" (= ladle) visible. One of the photos taken from the cemetery.

Aurel

 

 

 

[David_Blanchard]

Reposting this photograph again, of what maybe Railway Dugouts.

 

I think this is a photograph by an official photographer. I would be very surprised if is by a soldier. If that is correct then there must be a copy of the photograph in the archives, possibly the IWM, or the Canadian or Australian archives as these other countries were also active here in 1916 and 1917. 
 

If I am correct it must be possible to track this down- and find a higher definition copy. Of course it may not have an attribution of Railway Dugouts. 

David 

 

[WhiteStarLine]

David, this web site has the identical photo and cites it as:

 

Ramparts Cemetery (Lille Gates)

 

[David_Blanchard]

Simon Jones on twitter has just found the image after a google image search- tried that last week didn’t get anywhere.

 

It is a photograph from AWM collection and the attribution is surprising:

 

However, I am now sure about the provenance of this. If it was the Ypres ramparts wouldn’t more of the ruins of Ypres be seen in the background? 
 

I guess one way of checking is to look at the sequence of photographs of the photographer, to see what  the photographs taken before or after were of.

*Sorry WS, I should have read your reply first!

 

 

[Aurel Sercu]

Ramparts Cemetery (Lille Gate) ? So hard to believe for me.

Aurel

[LDT006]

On 25/05/2021 at 23:21, WhiteStarLine said:

David, this web site has the identical photo

 

Great find and website, it also has a bit on Railway Dugouts and I wonder why this didn't show up during my Google searches.

 

The war diary of the 5th Field Company, Australian Engineers has the following entry for 30-31 Aug. 1917: 

It doesn't say that the billeted there.

 

David,

the description that you quoted states that it was taken from the Ypres side towards the south: "the other side of the embankment sloped down into the moat", so no ruins can be seen.

 

Aurel,

I suspect that the photo was made from the Wateringsstraat. The sloping of the ground there matches the photo, (I know the area a bit because my mother in law lives there and I spend some time at the Ministery of Finance for tax issues .... )

A rough drawing on a trench map of the location and direction of the photo that I have in mind, please correct me as I have been proven to be wrong in the past.

 

 

It looks as war time photo's of the dugout's and tunnel at Railway Dugouts have not yet been found, the possible concrete entrance of a dugout on my photo's still intrigues me and I will try to access the location for more details with the farmer's permission next week when the weather improves.

 

Luc.

 

[David_Blanchard]

Thanks for the replies- there is also this photograph of dugouts in a railway embankment- from the AWM - it says April 1918- France. But looks as though it could be Railway Dugouts. Or is this embankment too high? 
 

 

David

 

[David_Blanchard]

Then there is this photograph from the IWM - that could be of the dugouts. 
 

David 

 

 

 

[LDT006]

6 minutes ago, David_Blanchard said:

there is also this photograph of dugouts in a railway embankment- from the AWM - it says April 1918- France. But looks as though it could be Railway Dugouts. Or is this embankment too high? 

 

David,

it's indeed far to high and Railway Dugouts at Zillebeke was never captured by the Germans.

Your other photo says "reserve trench", can't see dugouts.

 

The Zillebeke area was cluttered with dugouts, bunkers and trenches. Photo's might exist but it will be difficult.

Aerial pictures probably exist but I have no experience with these, @Aurel Sercu might be able to help as he has some experience with these in the IFFM museum.

 

Luc.

[Bob Davies]

8 minutes ago, David_Blanchard said:

Thanks for the replies- there is also this photograph of dugouts in a railway embankment

The embankment looks too curved for it to be where we want it to be. Yes there is a slight curve on the track looking at the maps but this is a bit too curved for my liking.  Second pic could be my Grandads mates, though at this time I believe he was tunneling under Vimy ridge with the RE. Pity they have labeled it Royal Leicestershire, not Royal until 1946 or there abouts. Great pic mind you.

[David_Blanchard]

A few plans/maps. I thought I had already included this drawing of Railway Dugouts ADS- from 69 Field Ambulance - June 1917. This I think proves the dressing station was on the north side of the railway line.

 

Secondly, is the pond found in the cemetery today, the same one on the trench map associated with Transport Farm?

 

 

 

 

[Barwinmol]

On 09/05/2021 at 19:47, brianmorris547 said:

Thanks Bob

I thought it must be that.

I had a look at the WD for the DDMS 5 Corps (WO 95/758/1) to see if there was any that might assist David in his original quest but it only seems to deal with 27 Div, 28 Div and the Canadian Div. There is a mention on 18/04/1915 that 5 Div attacked Hill 60 

Brian

 

This post caught my attention.

My great uncle Earnest Skipper was wounded on 18-4-1915 in the attack on Hill 60. He was in 1st Battn Norfolk Regiment,15 Bde, 5 Div.

[LDT006]

 

1 hour ago, David_Blanchard said:

A few plans/maps. I thought I had already included this drawing of Railway Dugouts ADS- from 69 Field Ambulance - June 1917. This I think proves the dressing station was on the north side of the railway line.

 

Can't remember seeing this map before but didn't reread the entire topic. The location on that map matches my interpretation, from several documents, of the location where the dugouts were located: between the cemetery and the railway.

 

1 hour ago, David_Blanchard said:

Secondly, is the pond found in the cemetery today, the same one on the trench map associated with Transport Farm?

 

Yes, the pond is smaller now. This map should allow you to see the now and then by changing the transparency:

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=19&lat=50.83529&lon=2.90244&layers=101464903&b=1