Railway Dugouts- Zillebeke- origins

[IRC Kevin]

The 'railway arch' in question was almost certainly the one in the photo below from Norman Ellison's scrapbook (also shown in my sketch maps of 'C' and 'D' Sectors). The narrow No-Man's Land began just the far side of it. I have some good accounts of the Rifles working to improve the defences here, and also smiting German snipers who tried to infiltrate under the bridge. The bullet scarring on the brickwork is from German machine gun fire from the Caterpillar. They routinely fired at the brickwork during the night knowing that rounds would glance off to go tumbling along the cutting imperilling any working parties coming forward.

 

 

 

 

[Bob Davies]

On 10/05/2021 at 20:19, IRC Kevin said:

The 'railway arch' in question was almost certainly the one in the photo below

Thanks for these Kevin, very interesting. Here is another mention of the Railway embankment Dugouts, 22-4-1915 in the 15 Brigade diary. I missed it earlier.

[David_Blanchard]

Kevin- thanks for this. I also have an interest in Hill 60. May have to invest in your book on the Liverpool Rifles.

 

David 

[Bob Davies]

On 10/05/2021 at 20:19, IRC Kevin said:

The 'railway arch' in question

This is the reference to the 'Railway Arch', as far as I can work out it is about 22nd April.  There are references to the work done which can be linked to the trench numbers/locations on the sketch maps that Kevin has posted above. 10th/ 11th to the 16th/17th April.

[IRC Kevin]

A little bit more about the cutting and dreadful journey forward for carrying parties. The following account is from Norman Ellison's scrapbook.

 

'Our duty was to supply large carrying parties for ammunition and mining stores to the front line on Hill 60. This nightly journey—sometimes twice nightly—was a dangerous and detestable job. The open and exposed approach up the railway cutting from Zillebeke Halt was a death trap. Never a journey, but the message ‘Stretcher-Bearers’ was passed down the ranks. Only those who once formed part of that winding snake of men, overburdened with coils of wire, corrugated iron sheets or balks of timber, stumbling in pitch darkness over sleepers and into shell-holes, with the leading files barely moving, yet those at the rear running in a lather of sweat to keep in touch; with shells arriving punctually every few minutes at recognised danger spots, and overhead the evil swish of machine-gun bullets, can possibly appreciate the hardship of the task.'

 

On one particularly rough night supplying the men in the forward line along the cutting, Lt Frederick Bardsley-Powell made the following promise to the forty men of 6 Platoon, ‘If we ever get out of this, lads, I’ll stand you the greatest dinner of your life’.

 

Although seriously wounded and medically discharged on this very same task in June, Bardsley-Powell kept his promise and treated twenty survivors of 6 Platoon to a slap-up meal at the Stork Hotel in Liverpool on 20 March 1936. Although the menu notes 20 March 1915 as the date the working party occurred, I'm 99.9% sure it was actually 25 March. The entire battalion was in 'B' Camp at Busseboom on 20 March and didn't move up until the night of 21/22 March. Records show that 6 Platoon was involved in this journey up the cutting on 25 March, a night which Intelligence reports notes there was particularly heavy enemy fire.

 

 

 

 

[brianmorris547]

23 hours ago, David_Blanchard said:

Found this diary entry from the 1/1 North Midland Field Coy RE (on loan to 28 Division- later became 465 Field Coy) 2 April 1915- two dugouts made in the railway bank.

 

On the 1 April- at Zillebeke Road 10 dugouts built and commenced work on 6 more- these could possibly be near railway embankment as well.

 

 

 

David

Most of the March 1915 WD seems to be missing, I am trying to find it in case it has been misfiled. On 25/03 it records Assisted by Infantry made 50 yds Fire Trenches on left bank, (insert: rear of 38 trench Railway Cutting) and on 29/03 and 30/03 more about work on dug outs. Pity the rest of the month is missing as it might give a clue as to what these dug outs were. I think they were probably Infantry HQs rather than medical. I am reading other RE Units to try and find out more.

Great post by IRC Kevin

Brian

 

[David_Blanchard]

Brian, Bob  and Kevin

 

excellent and interesting posts again. I am also trying to find out more about the potential routes of ambulance cars from Railway Dugouts, presumably following what is now called the Komenseweg to Shrapnel Corner then in through the Lille Gate. 
 

I have yet to see a trench map with Railway Dugouts mentioned- I trawled my way through both the Scottish University and McMaster collection  of Square 28 NW yesterday- only Transport Farm seems to be there.

 

David 

[IRC Kevin]

The positions for the markings on the map below were garnered from coordinates in various reports, diaries etc. Also included is an 'A' Coy report describing their route forward to the railway dugout HQ of 15 Bde on May 5. Finally, Norman Ellison's own account of his journey to the rear when he was wounded in the ear whilst in 'C' Sector.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[brianmorris547]

David

I had a read of the WD of 171 Tunnelling Co, who fired the charges at Hill 60. No help there. Sometimes the TCs were employed on other work.

The WD of 28 Div Sigs Co 11/03/1915 records that repairs were made to the lines to Trenches 27 and 28 and the Dressing Station south of the canal. On 12/03 it refers to a new line to the Advanced Post Dressing Station and on p 52/129 there is a circuit diagram which shows roughly where the advanced post was in relation to the trenches. (Courtesy TNA / Ancestry).

Brian

EDIT: I think it shows that the lines to the trenches were Company HQs and they would have been the dug outs that were constructed by the RE Field Companies.

[David_Blanchard]

Kevin,

 

Thanks for the testimony of Norman Ellison (I assume he was injured on 5 May- the day of the gas attack on Hill 60- I have looked at the casualty evacuation of the 2 Dukes on that day.) 

 

His testimony fits in well with II Corps scheme of evacuation. I assume that he was seen by the MO at Larch Wood RAP first- then walked to the aid station at Railway Dugouts, which was an ambulance ‘halting station’ and was then taken from there through the Lille Gate to the CCS at Poperinge. 

The enclosed two maps are from the DDMS II Corps- one shows the divisional areas in April 1915 and the other the medical evacuation route

 

Btw I suppose you have seen the photograph Rifleman Gladwinfield and the photograph of his grave, in Railway Dugouts- 22 May 1915? 

David 

 

 

 

[Bob Davies]

Hi All, from 1/2nd home counties field company RE war diary 8-4-1915; WO95 1534-1     It is listed under Title: 491 (Home Counties) Field Company Royal Engineers

[David_Blanchard]

Thanks again for all the contributions- and this has definitely spurred me on in my research into casualty evacuation in the Ypres Salient. I did envision writing an article about the evacuation chain in the Ypres Salient between 1915 and 1917- but I think this is too unwieldy, so I am now concentrating on the development of casualty evacuation in the Zillebeke sector with a focus on Railway Dugouts ADS - which may also take in Bedford House ADS as well- as both ADS were responsible for clearing casualties of the divisions occupying the front lines in this sector, which obviously takes in the actions concerned with Hill 60, and later the Messines offensive of June 1917.

 

A good few years ago I started a thread here on GWF about the Aisne Battle / Chemin des Dames battle of 1918 which eventually led to me being approached to write a book, which was  published in 2015, and as I retired from teaching last year- and with little guiding to be done- you never know...

[Bob Davies]

6 hours ago, David_Blanchard said:

Btw I suppose you have seen the photograph Rifleman Gladwinfield and the photograph of his grave, in Railway Dugouts- 22 May 1915? 

Hi David, Brian and Kevin, thanks for this thread, very interesting for me and has been great hounor researching bits for it.  There are no maps in the 1/2nd home counties RE war diary, however, some quite detailed info on what they were doing at the time. (from 6-4-'15 to the end July '15 in Ypres) Name rank and number of all ranks wounded or KIA are included in it.  They stood their place in the attack on Hill 60.  If you need any more from the war diary, let me know. I looked into the six 15th Kings Hussar cavalry men buried at Railway dug out cemetery, it seems they were KIA at Hooge 1-12-1914, according to a book I found on line. This took me on a very interesting journey into the early stages of the war and in particular what role the Cavalry played. I wish you luck with your next book David. Regards, Bob. Here is the link to the books on cavalry I found;  http://www.lightdragoons.org.uk/downloads.html

[brianmorris547]

David, Bob et al

Very interesting thread, good luck with the book David and thanks for finding those maps in the WD of 2 Corps DDMS. They are what I was hoping to find in the WDs of 5 Corps DDMS (see my earlier post). Good find Sir.

Brian

[David_Blanchard]

One of the first men to be buried in Railway Dugouts (excluding later burials, with earlier dates of death, that were concentrated after the war) is Rifleman Charles Gladwinfield - 1/6 King’s Liverpool Regiment (Liverpool Rifles) - also included on the website is a photograph of his grave which shows the boggy nature of the ground at Railway Dugouts. 
 

http://www.inmemories.com/Cemeteries/railwaydugouts.htm

 

 

 

 

[David_Blanchard]

This map is taken from the war diary of the 1st Welsh Regiment (28 Division- who had just arrived in the Hill 60 - Zillebeke sector) from February 1915- and illustrates the primitive nature of the trench system at this point in the war. 28 Division had taken over from the French on 2 February and inherited these defences.

Will have to find the name of the farm on the top left of the map near the Tuillieres. 
 

David 

 

[brianmorris547]

David

According to the IGN 1:20 000 Sheet 28 1-2 there is a cemetery there now. Mil Begraafplaats. The farm is behind it and may give it's name to the Cemetery.

Brian

EDIT In the WD of 27 Div HQ GS there is a map of the 5 Corps area dated 14/03/1915 which shows 1 Co of 1 RSF in the position north of Zillebeke and HQ 9 Infantry Brigade in Zillebeck (p 611/834). I checked the WDs of 3 Div HQ GS and 9 IB but no maps. The WD of 1 Royal Scots Fusiliers 13/03/1915 WO 95/1432/1 records that "A Co arrived at the Tuileries and remained there for the night" and on 14/03 "Marched to Ypres at Dusk. They seemed to alternate with the Lincs Regt (1 Bn) whose WD, 1429/3, also only mentions the Tuileries.

 

[David_Blanchard]

Brian,

 

Excellent, thanks Brian. I was looking at an internet map. Didn’t have that level of detail- may have to get the IGN 1:20 000. I am pretty sure that is Tuileries British Cemetery.

 

 

David 

 

[brianmorris547]

David

This is a wider view of the IGN. 

There is a 1915 map of Voormezelle in the 27 Div HQ GS WD (p 612/834), which I think you asked me to look out for on another thread.

Brian

EDIT: The large farm in the area is a Fruit and Veg market today according to Google maps. There are some 1915 maps of the area which show it as unmarked surrounded by water. These can be found in the WDs of 85 Infantry Brigade (WO 95/2278 - Ancestry p 539/1106) and WO 2279 ( p 449/693). It is shown as Moated Grange on later NLS maps.

[David_Blanchard]

Been sent this photograph- the guy who sent it reckons its Railway Dugouts but uncertain. Trying a google image couldn’t find anything similar. It’s a great photograph, but higher resolution would be better- if it is in fact of the dugouts.

 

[mebu]

Does look like dugouts in an embankment, western side, however the pic has a wood behind it, eastern side. Not sure if looks right for squares 21 c or d.

 

Peter

[mebu]

No-one else commenting? was hoping someone may agree/disagree with comments above. Still cannot decide whether trees beyond the embankment are relevant.

 

Peter

[Bob Davies]

59 minutes ago, mebu said:

No-one else commenting?

Hi Peter, I have been pondering this one a while now and then got distracted by Vimy ridge some how! I think from the maps in previous posts and the name 'embankment' leads me to believe that the trees do not fit the location we are studying. There is a drop on either side of the railway indicated by the tiny triangles on the map, so in my mind the trees should not be there for the embankment dugout location. Bob. ps; these dugouts stick out quite a way and there is a corner which should not be there if the railway is in a straight line. This shot is well past 1915 as the soldiers are wearing tin hats.

Edited 16 May , 2021 by Bob Davies

[mebu]

Thanks Bob.

 

have just found this map which shows them to be a little along the line, nearer Ypres, than I thought.

Still no wood? perhaps whoever donated the pic may have some info/reference?

Peter

 

[Bob Davies]

A little snippet for you here @David_Blanchard"GOING on, there is Larchwood Cemetery near the railway. No trace of a wood remains. Farther on is Blauwepoort (Blue Gate) Farm, rebuilt, and then Transport Farm. The farmer there said his new buildings were much more extensive than the original ones, and his farm is well kept. The cemetery walls almost touch his buildings. Looking along the railway embankment for the dugouts that used to be there, I could only see one, a half-hidden concrete entrance to the place they called ‘‘the doctor’s dugout.” Over on the right, on the banks of Zillebeke Lake, there is one surviving shelter, and in the field are two small British pillboxes."    This is from Thirteen years  after; https://archive.macleans.ca/article/1932/2/1/thirteen-years-after